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Bridgepoint to bring MotoGP and WSBK under one umbrella

Kropotkin said:
Dorna have decided that they need the spec ECU more than they need Honda.
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Why? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I can't understand the logic. I've tried to imagine a scenario in which Dorna benefits from a spec-ECU, despite HRC's probable withdrawal, but the scenarios seem relatively far fetched.



1. Dorna has a handful of manufacturers who are eager to join MotoGP is a spec ECU is implemented. Sounds like fiction to me.



2. The cost of regulating an electronics war is more than the sum cost of testing and implementing a spec-ecu AND the value of the damage done to MotoGP's brand.
 
mylexicon said:
What part is legitimate? I have read maybe one or two legitimate complaints about the changes to MotoGP. The remainder are just rants from fans who don't understand the sport (though some are trying). I certainly don't understand everything about the sport, but a majority of the complaints on PS and MM are baseless whining or absurdly facile arguments.



Some people complain that the definition of prototype is undermined unless all equipment is NASA specification. In reality, prototype racing only means that teams have a right to rapid prototype and develop their machines, without onerous homologation restrictions. MotoGP still adheres to that principle, even if they implement a spec-ECU. F1, on the other hand, is exploring the gray area between production and prototype racing by tightening homologation restrictions annually. If the current trend continues, F1 will merely be a rare production vehicle, manufactured by the handful of companies who have the sophistication and the willpower to make such vehicles.



Other GP fans complain that eliminating prototype electronics will stop the manufacturers from developing street electronics. In reality, there is very little connection between the two. The appearance of a connection was created when racing adopted electronics before the production market. Fans believed their was a connection b/c it puts emphasis on their beloved sport, and marketers are eager to capitalize on the misconception that winning prototype vehicles = superior production machines. Really, racing systems have little to do with production vehicles, and prototype electronics don't have to be developed in racing. A majority of the electronics prototyping happens on the manufacturer's test track, regardless of the electronics rules in GP.



The spec electronics may hurt the brand value of MotoGP, and I'm generally open to such complaints. A spec-ECU may also blur the lines between SBK and MotoGP or further confuse the identity of both series.
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The future of electronics lies in collaborative systems, where data is shared among vehicles, passing information about road conditions between them, as part of the move which society is making towards being doused in a pool of ubiquitous and ever more comprehensive data on all aspects of reality. Collaborative data is inimical to motorcycle racing, even if the ban on any form of radio communication with the motorcycle were removed.



Electronics R&D can be done anywhere, racing is not necessary. If it were, there would be nine factories or more on the MotoGP grid.
 
Mick D said:
Bird, the riders contracts are two way MGP contracts. The riders are contracted to ride AND the manufacturered are contracted to supply a motorcycle. Honda and/or Yam pull out and supply no bike, contract is broken and the riders can hire on where ever they like! There is no "rider card" for the manufacturers to play.
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My post is based on an interview with Ezy prior to Motegi 2011. He is asked what Dorna will do if the riders boycott as was rumoured. He reponds the riders have nothing to do with him or Dorna, there is no contract. The teams must put the bikes on the grid, who rides them he doesnt care.



The riders in question and their personal sponsors would fight hard to break the contract. But once broken they ride for who? Ducati!!! Rossi would enjoy that.
 
mylexicon said:
Why? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I can't understand the logic. I've tried to imagine a scenario in which Dorna benefits from a spec-ECU, despite HRC's probable withdrawal, but the scenarios seem relatively far fetched.



1. Dorna has a handful of manufacturers who are eager to join MotoGP is a spec ECU is implemented. Sounds like fiction to me.



2. The cost of regulating an electronics war is more than the sum cost of testing and implementing a spec-ecu AND the value of the damage done to MotoGP's brand.
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Dorna believes a spec ECU will have the following benefits:



1. Performance gap between front runners and backmarkers will be radically decreased



2. Racing will look more spectacular, as control is taken away from the ECU and passed to the rider. That means more wheelies, more sliding, more backing it in.



3. The factories will save millions every year on software development, making the series an affordable proposition for the factories who wish to spend 10-20 million a year (BMW anyone?) rather than the 50-60 million a year it currently costs.



That is why they believe they need a spec ECU more than they need Honda. I think they are right.
 
Kropotkin said:
That is why they believe they need a spec ECU more than they need Honda. I think they are right.
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And I would agree. Its really a sham of a series right now with 8 competitive bikes and CRT filler. If Dorna envisions a future of something more akin to Wsbk in terms of parity, then they would be willing to kiss Honda good-bye. If they think, operative word here, that a spec ECU will achieve this goal, then they are gonna go for it me thinks.
 
BMW want to use their own electronics. As does Suzuki and Kwaka. A spec ECU will prevent them joining. Even if introduced the spec ECU can only last so long. It is inevitable. Electronics is the carrot to dangle out there, and now that he has SBK there will be only one place to get a bite. With 24L and more engines the role and cost of electronics is decreased to a level allowing current SBK competitors to join motogp. Thats got to be Ezy's target. CRT is supposedly already competitive enough with the billion dollar factory bikes through 24L and more engines alone (according to Ezy the difference is 0.5 seconds)



I still predict its a game of bluff. Once confronted with the reality both sides will compromise.
 
birdman said:
BMW want to use their own electronics. As does Suzuki and Kwaka. A spec ECU will prevent them joining. Even if introduced the spec ECU can only last so long. It is inevitable. Electronics is the carrot to dangle out there, and now that he has SBK there will be only one place to get a bite. With 24L and more engines the role and cost of electronics is decreased to a level allowing current SBK competitors to join motogp. Thats got to be Ezy's target. CRT is supposedly already competitive enough with the billion dollar factory bikes through 24L and more engines alone (according to Ezy the difference is 0.5 seconds)



I still predict its a game of bluff. Once confronted with the reality both sides will compromise.
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Suzuki have already been told that the only way in is with a spec ECU. The reality is that by setting out the rules, the factories will make their own decisions. There are only 3 factories in now, so things could hardly get worse, so Dorna have nothing to lose.
 
Kropotkin said:
Dorna believes a spec ECU will have the following benefits:



1. Performance gap between front runners and backmarkers will be radically decreased



2. Racing will look more spectacular, as control is taken away from the ECU and passed to the rider. That means more wheelies, more sliding, more backing it in.



3. The factories will save millions every year on software development, making the series an affordable proposition for the factories who wish to spend 10-20 million a year (BMW anyone?) rather than the 50-60 million a year it currently costs.



That is why they believe they need a spec ECU more than they need Honda. I think they are right.
Click to expand...



1. Maybe the bikes will be closer, but the gap between the riders will increase as if the 500s were reintroduced. Four-strokes should be a bit easier to ride, but we will return to 80/20. I wouldn't be particularly alarmed by rider-dominated competition, but the manufacturers, whether HRC sympathizers or HRC opponents, seem resolute that the mix will not be 80/20 in the MotoGP era.



2. True



3. Do the manufacturers really spend $40M on electronics? The electronics will eliminate the fuel-efficiency formula by eliminating most of the marginal benefits of electronic control and expensive friction-fighting technologies, and (according to you) by requiring a 15% bump in fuel capacity. Bumping fuel capacity by 15% would have a similar affect, without aggravating companies who like proprietary electronics. WSBK has prototype electronics for a reason. The manufacturers want them, most notably BMW, who chose to develop their own proprietary electronics.



The spec ECU is the part that doesn't really fit. It appears as though Dorna are simply unsure of the digital future, and they'd prefer a known spec-ECU to the digital frontier. However, Ezpeleta just remarked that he isn't particularly attached to the spec ECU or rev limits--suggesting he is amenable to other solutions.
 
mylexicon said:
1. Maybe the bikes will be closer, but the gap between the riders will increase as if the 500s were reintroduced. Four-strokes should be a bit easier to ride, but we will return to 80/20. I wouldn't be particularly alarmed by rider-dominated competition, but the manufacturers, whether HRC sympathizers or HRC opponents, seem resolute that the mix will not be 80/20 in the MotoGP era.



2. True



3. Do the manufacturers really spend $40M on electronics? The electronics will eliminate the fuel-efficiency formula by eliminating most of the marginal benefits of electronic control and expensive friction-fighting technologies, and (according to you) by requiring a 15% bump in fuel capacity. Bumping fuel capacity by 15% would have a similar affect, without aggravating companies who like proprietary electronics. WSBK has prototype electronics for a reason. The manufacturers want them, most notably BMW, who chose to develop their own proprietary electronics.
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1. Dorna's current thinking is ".... the manufacturers." They are welcome to play on Dorna's rules or not at all. The factories can and will dominate, but what they'll have to do is sign the best factories.



3. No, the factories don't spend $40m on electronics. But what Dorna hope is that they will drastically change the point of diminishing returns. If a $20 million program can beat a $60 million program, why spend the extra $40 million? Right now, there are a bunch of technologies which work together to increase costs and reduce the spectacle. A spec ECU and a rev limit make most of them redundant. And if, as I suspect, Dorna impose a spec ECU on WSBK as well, then BMW will have nowhere to go to develop their own electronics, unless they decide that the IDM is the best series to do that.





mylexicon said:
The spec ECU is the part that doesn't really fit. It appears as though Dorna are simply unsure of the digital future, and they'd prefer a known spec-ECU to the digital frontier. However, Ezpeleta just remarked that he isn't particularly attached to the spec ECU or rev limits--suggesting he is amenable to other solutions.
Click to expand...



Dorna want control of the spectacle, and believe the spec electronics package will allow them to do that. They want wheelies, power slides, bikes sideways on corner entry. They want it to look difficult to ride these bikes. A spec ECU is the only way to achieve that.
 
Kropotkin said:
Dorna want control of the spectacle, and believe the spec electronics package will allow them to do that. They want wheelies, power slides, bikes sideways on corner entry. They want it to look difficult to ride these bikes. A spec ECU is the only way to achieve that.
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Thats the answer. Control of the spectacle. Not the wheelies and slides per se, ultimate control of whos competitive which makes Ezy 'calm'.



In all likelihood a control ECU will turn into the next control tire. It will suit one engine and chasis type more than the others. If Yamaha was to stay to beat up on the CRT's when Honda leave, the racing could in fact become very boring. Ezy really needs performance indexing to get his spectacle.
 
Kropotkin said:
No. It really is about the entertainment. Motorcycle racing is show bizz.
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I'm actually not against entertainment. I just dont think Bridgestone can provide it, control ECU or not. When Bridgetone make softer tires that slide, they chunk. We are stuck with Brickstones. Pirelli and Michelin can make them soft, slide and stay together. Ezy supposedly looked at F1, yet he didnt realize the change in tires actually provided the bulk of the entertainment.
 
birdman said:
I'm actually not against entertainment. I just dont think Bridgestone can provide it, control ECU or not. When Bridgetone make softer tires that slide, they chunk. We are stuck with Brickstones. Pirelli and Michelin can make them soft, slide and stay together. Ezy supposedly looked at F1, yet he didnt realize the change in tires actually provided the bulk of the entertainment.
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I completely agree that Michelins, Dunlops or Pirellis would be better than Bridgestones. I suspect that will be the next avenue they will explore.
 
Kropotkin said:
Ezpeleta will say almost anything to journalists when they annoy him. An Italian journalist at an F1 race asks about Rossi, Ezpeleta, just about to sink his chops into a particularly tasty slice of Pata Negra ham, says "Oh, don't worry, he'll be on a competitive bike next year." People then take him seriously....



Here's a tip: if you want to be a pundit at absolutely anything, all you have to do is make lots and lots and lots of predictions. People will remember the ones you get right, but not the ones you get wrong.
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Now Expeleta may have been chomping on some ham, but to characterise a 12 question, 1000 word interview as an offhand comment to an annoying journo is just misrepresentation.
 
Dr No said:
Now Expeleta may have been chomping on some ham, but to characterise a 12 question, 1000 word interview as an offhand comment to an annoying journo is just misrepresentation.
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You are correct. It was a flippant remark. I still believe that it was an answer designed to get rid of the journo. Ezpeleta had three answers to choose from. 1. "Yes, the Ducati is ...." 2. "Yes, Valentino is ...." or 3. Make .... up. He took the last option. "Valentino will be on a competitive bike next year" says nothing about where. Maybe Ezpeleta had just met with Audi people (it was a car event after all) and been told of their plans to sink money and cash into Ducati. Ezpeleta had heard the same rumors at that point as everyone else, remember the story right around Qatar that Rossi would be riding a factory Yamaha in his own team with Coca Cola backing? It's a safe gamble to make, the Ducati can't get any worse and if Rossi does leave, there will be room for him somewhere. No shenanigans required, just a willingness to gamble.
 
Zootalaws said:
Except the word is, it is just as bad in WSBK - shrinking grids, 'haves and have-nots' getting preferential deals, costs going through the roof.



Mat Oxley just wrote a good article about it: http://www.motorspor...motogp-and-wsb/













I am not sure - a mate of mine has invested in Csysz, but looks to have done his dough, he's all about TTXGP now.







Not that I'm aware... and I've listened to a lot of Zappa. I suspect we have similarly weird senses of humour (Frank and I... not too sure about you
<
)



It's a pun - Zut Alors! French for '.... Me!'
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Thats the name of the Album, 1976 (I googled it rather shamelessly because looking through about 1000 cd's was about as appealing as herpes)









Zoot Allures





Mat Oxley rather cleverly (IMO) agrees with my point about the cost of peak technology today and yesteryear, in that it really is so much more expensive now.



I'm not convinced yet, but the truth of the matter is it doesn't matter .... what we say here, we can light a match and stamp our feet but the horse has already bolted and the gate was never ours to shut.



Caramels throw away about Valentino being on a competitive bike next year ..... me. He was going so well at Ducati.
 
mylexicon said:
Other GP fans complain that eliminating prototype electronics will stop the manufacturers from developing street electronics. In reality, there is very little connection between the two. The appearance of a connection was created when racing adopted electronics before the production market.
Click to expand...



Absolutely 100% correct! BMW in WSBK uses a custom ECU, the ECU in the S1000RR is from the M5.



birdman said:
BMW want to use their own electronics. As does Suzuki and Kwaka. A spec ECU will prevent them joining. Even if introduced the spec ECU can only last so long. It is inevitable.
Click to expand...



Absolutely, 100% incorrect (I think
<
). $60M will prevent them joining. There is no reason the spec ECU 'can only last so long' - they will update and refine it, it could go on forever.



When both F1 and WSBK and MotoGP state that half their budget goes into electronics, maybe it's time to accept that half their budget goes into electronics. Not the little black box, but the team of 50 analysts, data capture experts, software engineers and hardware designers.



Not having to spend that money has to appeal to the cash-strapped teams more than deciding a spec ecu is going to disadvantage their sales efforts.
 
Kropotkin said:
1. Dorna's current thinking is ".... the manufacturers." They are welcome to play on Dorna's rules or not at all. The factories can and will dominate, but what they'll have to do is sign the best factories.



3. No, the factories don't spend $40m on electronics. But what Dorna hope is that they will drastically change the point of diminishing returns. If a $20 million program can beat a $60 million program, why spend the extra $40 million? Right now, there are a bunch of technologies which work together to increase costs and reduce the spectacle. A spec ECU and a rev limit make most of them redundant. And if, as I suspect, Dorna impose a spec ECU on WSBK as well, then BMW will have nowhere to go to develop their own electronics, unless they decide that the IDM is the best series to do that.









Dorna want control of the spectacle, and believe the spec electronics package will allow them to do that. They want wheelies, power slides, bikes sideways on corner entry. They want it to look difficult to ride these bikes. A spec ECU is the only way to achieve that.
Click to expand...

Perhaps the real problem is whether gp bike racing has the critical mass to be a worldwide sport with the expense of the travel etc, and even more so the expense of the media coverage, although wsbk did manage a coverage that was enjoyable if primitive by comparison. It is arguable it only had major sport level popularity in rossi's heyday, and that the FIM whom I have argued should be running the sport don't have the ability to run such media coverage, and no media company will pay big money without guaranteeing/controlling the quality of the media coverage and the show.



The ivory tower EU bureaucrat who forced the sale of gp racing by CVC partners or whoever they were on the basis of ideological opposition to them having both F1 and the bikes has the most to answer for as lex has always said, as EU bureaucrats do in general. The previous ownership both were motorsport guys who may have had more chance of cutting deals with/reining in the factories, and had an infrastructure to cover F1.



I guess what is done is done, and your view seems clear and well argued, and it is good of you to express it here. I remember you first canvassing the sport vs sports entertainment question in 2007 on your site while we were doing so here. It seems nascar is the future of all big league motorsport, or nothing.
 
Zootalaws said:
Absolutely 100% correct! BMW in WSBK uses a custom ECU, the ECU in the S1000RR is from the M5.







Absolutely, 100% incorrect (I think
<
). $60M will prevent them joining. There is no reason the spec ECU 'can only last so long' - they will update and refine it, it could go on forever.



When both F1 and WSBK and MotoGP state that half their budget goes into electronics, maybe it's time to accept that half their budget goes into electronics. Not the little black box, but the team of 50 analysts, data capture experts, software engineers and hardware designers.



Not having to spend that money has to appeal to the cash-strapped teams more than deciding a spec ecu is going to disadvantage their sales efforts.
Click to expand...



This might make it fair and to be candidly honest everything i've seen from DORNA/Caramel over the last however many years tell me that he would rather have his scrotum washed in battery acid then hand the series to a potentially unscheduled champion.



The preferential rider problem will still exist however one person now holds all the cards.



I'll still be watching it but it just seems a little too contrived.



For me, a certified Boner, it will seem that the guy who couldn't win a race on Stoners bike will be back to being the best ever (waves his hand like a Jedi). Yes, the best ever.



Valentino will always be the Lance Armstrong of motogp to me.
 

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