Best factory bike in GP to date: Honda or Yamaha

So which of these two factories efforts is fielding the best machine?



Here is at least one opinion:



[quote]"The Yamaha is the better bike in 2012..." Kropo.[/quote]



I disagree.



For the those who want a bit more fuel to explain why Casey is not winning the title because he’s on an inferior bike, you boys now have an ally.



Here is how I explain the reason why Lorenzo is beating Casey, which seems to be the reason why suddenly some people are saying Yamaha is now the superior machine in GP. First of all, I'm compelled to say, I don't dislike Casey, and anybody can go back and read my record on him, you will find I’m a staunch defender of his talent, race-craft, and even as a person; but I have been annoyed by this new sect of fans who can't accept anything other than pure praise for Casey, regardless of how minor an issue not posed in a perfect light shown on the man. And the slew of conspiracy against Stoner, which so far have proved baseless, now add this idea that He is now hampered by an inferior machine. Notwithstanding, I propose, Lorenzo is simply more focused on beating Casey and winning at the moment.



Lorenzo came into this season knowing that to win the title this year, he had to do it by having a super-human focused and determined season, something of an “alien” focus. This is the mindset he came into this season and he prepared his mind to execute his efforts for to end. All the great champs have repeatedly told us racing is mostly mental, right? Stoner on the other hand came into the season feeling very confident almost glib (Jerez test), having topped all the preseason testing (shelf this thought, as I'll come back to it). But at some point, his mindset seems to have changed from confidence to focusing on the conspiracies against him and the direction sport as an extension of conspiracy, some imagined and some with good reason to believe these impressions. Does this mean I hate Stoner? Well of course not, but like the boppers of old who saw life through a Rossi lens, it’s the same for the neoboppers who see everything through a similar filter.



Now I'm starting to read that the Yamaha is the best bike on the grid lately. Now I don't think Kropo is saying this to apologize for Stoner's losses to Lorenzo, but it certainly feeds and plays into this idea that Stoner is struggling because of his bike issues. It seems he is no longer the guy we were led to believe is so good that he can ride around minor problems, many of these same voices now saying the Yamaha is the better bike? I still think Casey is the fastest man in GP. But as we have seen, fastest guy in the race doesn’t always win, as its also become a battle of wits, determinations, mental focus, and perhaps most importantly, desire. I don't think Casey Stoner has his heart and mind in racing anymore, that is my personal spectator’s opinion (I’m not saying its fact, as nobody other than Casey knows). Careful now neoboppers, I'm not saying he’s "weak-minded" but simply that he has lost whatever fire was burning in him that kept him on Ducati when their program went to ...., and now with the issues he’s dealing with technically, and certainly, by his own admission, the ........ politics of GP. But there is still time to change this attitude, but he better do it soon or the title may be out of reach when and if he comes around to this realization.



As to the Yamaha being the best bike. Well, lets see. It eerily reminds me of something I remember reading on Kropo's site at the end of preseason testing. Who would have known that it might point to things the unthinkable future as we now know it...

"Somebody very wise said to me 'Riders need to be arrogant about this, because if you don't blame something else, there's nothing to blame but yourself. If you can't do it, then there's no reason to keep coming back to try to win each week.'" That self-belief is what keeps riders going, and without it, they may as well retire.

Click to expand...

I’ve often wondered and admired how a person like Kropo can write such fantastic articles with his own style, fair, command for the language, and most importantly, his personal opinions, and go on after he gets flamed in the comments section. I read he said he constantly contemplates retirement from the work of bringing us the racing latest. If he did, that would be a major loss to our community. But some how he soldiers on, perhaps knowing that most of us talk out of our ass. So if you read this Krops, here is my spectator’s opinion on why Yamaha is still not the best bike in GP. It’s closed the gap perhaps, and maybe that gap is as thick as a nat ass hair, but anyway, I still think HRC holds the edge. Allow me to continue.



Given that quote above, both HRC boys have been complaining quite a bit lately, one is retiring the other is an ........ Now let me see, oh yeah, HRC was top of the entire preseason testing going into this season, not most of it, all of it, except when Stoner took one afternoon off with a sore back issue, and that mysterious moment when Honda withdrew its participation for a day when some engine light turned on. Other than that, HRC under Casey and Pedros, were 1-2 sometimes, that is, they dominated the preseason-testing going into Qatar. And if it wasn't punctuated enough, I remember Casey, what seemed to toy with his prey on the last day of testing at Jerez, where Lorenzo had been at the top of the lap charts, then in the last 10 minutes or so, Stoner went out and obliterated Jorge's lap-time and name replacing it with his own, almost to make a point, like 'yeah take that mothfuker'. Kropo mentioned that somebody asked Stoner about this and his need to make the point of being fastest even if it really didn’t matter much (can't really remember what) where Stoner was quoted in saying, he did that to be "cheeky". Hahaha. Well, why not, most had already scribed his name into the 2012 trophy, including myself. At this point, who was ready to declare Yamaha was the best bike?



Certainly not after the first, second, and third practices runs for the season opener at Qatar where Casey dominated as usual. This is the challenge set before Lorenzo, and he knew that it would take some special riding to win this season, let alone a race. And it seems Jorge rose to this challenge, by putting in a perfect lap in Stoner’s house, and edging out the man for a pole. Then during the race, Lorenzo put in another perfect performance and won. Who expected this, any of the pundits and spectators? Casey then told us what had happened, because to most of us, it looked like Lorenzo had concentrated on perfect laps to hunt down Casey or maybe a tire problem, but then we learned Stoner the truth, he had suffered from arm pump (despite some wanting to believe and conclude it was a tire issue). Who was ready to declare the Yamaha was the best bike despite Casey's loss? The man said it was a personal physical issue, and I believed him (though perhaps some neoboppers just couldn’t and won’t accept this and still pointed to a tire conspiracy).



The following race, it seems the roles were a bit reversed, we were now in Lorenzo territory, well, this was Spain, and according to some, where the actual season really starts. Thanks to some .... weather, Stoner who normally dominated the practice only did so when it counted. He won the race, and in Spain no less. Maybe at this point people thought the Yamaha was the best bike? After all, Casey's HRC teammate joined him on the podium making a JLo sandwich. 2/3[sup]rd[/sup] of the podium made up of Hondas. Oh, I know, maybe people waited for Portugal to declare Yamaha was now the best bike in GP. Perhaps some thought its the new and improved Yamaha that allowed Ben Spies to top the first practice (PF1) results that would make them surmise, ah, the Yamaha is the best now. (Why would I remember such a small detail, oh yeah, its because it was Nicky who was 1-2 with Ben in FP1 of Estoril. And even I thought the Ducati might be making a turn for the better....... was I wrong). So the HRC boys go on to trade toping practice sessions, yeah, Honda took turns being number one in the following practice session, and for good measure wnt 1-2 in qual. Yup, chalk up another pole for Casey. And while we are at it, chalk up the win too. And yeah, you guessed it, joined on the podium by his HRC teammate, and again, another tasty Jorge sandwich. Maybe it was here, where people were ready to declare Yamaha the best bike in MotoGP, after all, Honda occupied 2/3rds of the podium real estate.



Now here, it’s best to admit, I have been known to have an alcoholic drink or two, so my memory is not the best. But was it here where rumors surfaced that Stoner might retire? Rumors, which would then be vehemently denied? What might happen to the mindset of a man who may have confided such personal matters to then have them possibly leaked? Jaded perhaps? Maybe the thought occurred to support the personal belief that the world is out to get him? I don't know the answer; I really honestly don't, as I don't know the man. But if that happened to me, I'd be pissed, disappointed, and disheartened, that is, my focus would be affect. The only times Casey has truly annoyed me was when he talked so much .... about Indy, then later when he said Nicky Hayden had balked him "on purpose" and left no room for interpretation (though many tried to soften his words, though Casey never minces his words) by declaring he had "lost respect for Nicky." Well .... you very much ......., was my understandable reaction being a, well, actually, thee greatest Nicky fan. But I eventually got over this, and unlike many of my closest friends (I count 8 just off the top of my head); I don't hate Casey. But I'd say he does have a minor public speaking problem. This again reared its ugly head when Casey said he would thumb his nose at the new rules, specifically, the introduction of the CRTs. And like clock work, the neoboppers followed suit: new public enemy number one--CRTs. Again, rules change, and that’s the world we live in. I don't agree with anybody retiring over changes of rules to a formula, though I do applaud Casey for saying a big .... You to Dorna/GP’s shady politics (like the lifting of the rookie rule to favor a Spanish darling). While am on the subject, its really too bad for Marc Marquez because he will be dislike for the "silver spoon" he's being given though maybe he didn’t ask for it. A victim of his own talent and the propensity of a shameless GP leadership to bend rules and provide a shelter of favoritism. So getting back to Casey, I support and applaud this side of his retirement, but it might have also affected his mindset, even if subliminally.



Now, wait, what was I talking about? Oh yeah, these recent declarations that Yamaha is currently the best bike in MotoGP. So to recap, Honda riders have both dominated pre-season testing, camped out on the podium to this point in the season, securing more wins to Yamaha, more poles, more practice fast laps, more constructor points, more everything say except umbrella girls thanks to Alberto Puig insisting he hold the shade over Pedro; and Casey's umbrella girl having a baby. So what has changed? Oh yeah, enter Le Mans.



Le Mans, here we had such .... weather that even a Ducati rider made a very unexpected visit to the podium. Maybe Ducati had turned the corner? Maybe they were now the second best manufacture? Behind Yamaha of course? Btw, side note, yes, this post is riddled with sarcasm. Well, Lorenzo won, as we all know. So maybe it’s at this point some people started to surmise that the Yamaha is the best bike? Of course by that logic, we'd need to declare Ducati had become the second best, after all, Rossi stood on the second step of the podium. So where were the HRC boys? Oh yeah, 3,4 and throw in 5 for good measure, as a Sat Honda made it 3/5 top 5. That is Yamaha 1 to Honda’s 3 representatives. But Jorge won, so maybe it was here that people started to declare Yamaha was now the best? Where were the other Yamahas? Well the other factory Yamaha didn't score any points, and both Sat-Yamaha riders finished behind the second factory Ducati. Uhm, not exactly the best evidence that Yamaha was now better. But hey, that's old news, that was two races ago. Ancient history right? So what changed? Oh yeah, forgot to mention this little thing that happened that only dominated every mouth and ear in the world of motorcycle racing, Stoner declares his retirement!



So maybe going into the Catalan GP is where Yamaha became the best bike in MotoGP, because so far there are exactly zero reasons why anybody would think this based on the facts of performance and statistical results since day one starting with the Valencia test. Of course, maybe it was Casey's retirement announcement that vastly improved the Yamaha? Well, it sure would seem so, because even though Casey secured yet another pole, he then for the first time in god knows how long, didn't make the podium in the race. Interesting. The man announces his retirement and then doesn't make the podium in the race. Ah, well now I see, it was his announcement that has caused the Yamaha to improve. Let us shelf the fact that his Honda teammate came in second place, making HRC a staple on the podium thus far. But of the top 6 positions, Yamaha and Honda were evenly split. I mean evenly, one Yamaha then one Honda, then one Yam, then one Hon, and so on. Of course, had Casey won or made the podium, that ratio would still have existed, but the all important positions would have been a 2/3 in favor of Honda as it had been all year except for soaked Le Mans. Yup, where Casey still made the podium with Pedro and retirment-denials in tow. Maybe it was here that Yamaha became the best bike in GP?



Well, that only leaves us with the British GP left thus far. I can stomach the neoboppers declaring that Yamaha is better to explain Stoner's woes, but now I'm starting to read it from people in the know. So lets see if the latest GP has some light to shed on this declaration. Well, FP1 started with a Ducati Factory 1-2. Holy ...., Ducati is the best manufacture in GP. Oh wait, not quite, Honda then went on top all the rest of the practice and qual sessions. ...., even a Sat Honda nabbed pole. Let us shelve that it was again crap conditions. So what happened in the race for the declarations to start coming out that Yamaha is now the best bike in GP? Oh yeah, Lorenzo won the race, that must be proof positive that Yamaha is now the best. So where were Honda? Uhm, both HRC riders were on the podium again, damn. Sound familiar? Well it should, it’s only been true for most the freaking season. And if that were not interesting enough, a Sat Honda came in 4th. Yup, that's right folks; Honda was 2/3 of the podium, 3/4 of the top four, 3/5 of the top five. It doesn't matter how you divide it, its still a favorable ration: advantage Honda.



So what would make anybody think Yamaha is better than Honda? Certainly the results don't indicate this in any way shape or form. I'd say the only major event that has happened is Stoner has declared his retirement. If they say racing is mostly mental, then I would submit that maybe, just maybe, no disrespect to the man, but perhaps Casey's mind & heart aren’t on the racing as much as Lorenzo? Maybe this is the only factor that has changed to make some conclude that the Factory Yamaha machine has eclipsed the Honda weapon? What say you? Which is the strongest factory effort in MotoGP in terms of machine? Can this conclusion be backed up by the facts? Can it be backed up by the results bore out on the track?

I can't vote because it doesn't seem clear cut. It maybe obvious to some with Lorenzo's yam looking to planted, yet Spies bike chatters like .....

Stoners honda has issues yet looks good on some tracks. Danis looks ok. It's swings and rounder bouts i reckon.

Yamaha is clearly the best bike because it has the least problems.



The Honda has Honda itself and both its riders saying that they have problems with the bike.



Besides that I think the rider makes the most difference and Lorenzo is so focused and so determined. This is his last chance to beat Stoner and if he does it will render obsolete any future arguments that Lorenzo only won because Stoner retired.



I think Stoner can not wait to get out of the place and it is only his competitive nature that he is relying on. This disappoints me with Stoner. I want him to be so hungry to win his last championship that nothing stands in his way. But it looks like that is not the case.

I think the difference in the two is perhaps one is more agreeable to the new spec tyres & the other doesn't & suffers from chatter.

To me from looking at onboards it seems the Yamaha has an advantage in corner speed & the Honda has an advantage on the straights.

In my opinion for what it's worth, Honda had an advantage last year & so far Yamaha has one this year. Even the Tech 3 boys are bloody quick on that bike.

Having said that, neither Cal or Dovi are in Lorenzo's league as a rider.

To sum up, last year the Honda was the pick of the bunch but it needed a Stoner to get the championship off Lorenzo.

This year Yamaha seems to be the bike of choice but it needs a Lorenzo to ride it to win a championship.



A couple of things that have left me scratching my head this year.

Lorenzo was terrible in the rain in the lower categories. Even from pole if it rained you knew he would be going backwards pronto.

But now he is smashing everbody on damp tracks by 10 seconds in cruise mode & he could have won by more.

The other thing is the length of time it has taken Honda to get over their chatter issues. It was reported as a problem even in testing at Malaysia before the season begun but here they are at exactly the same place.

Frizzle said:

To sum up, last year the Honda was the pick of the bunch but it needed a Stoner to get the championship off Lorenzo.

This year Yamaha seems to be the bike of choice but it needs a Lorenzo to ride it to win a championship.

Click to expand...

+1 , couldn't agree more.

chopperman said:

I can't vote because it doesn't seem clear cut. It maybe obvious to some with Lorenzo's yam looking to planted, yet Spies bike chatters like .....

Stoners honda has issues yet looks good on some tracks. Danis looks ok. It's swings and rounder bouts i reckon.

Click to expand...

Good points. It's probably more track dependant than anything.

The crazy thing is Spies is having more issues on this years bike than last years 800's, yet was super fast in early season testing.

Where has it gone wrong for him since then? I think he is at least as good as Cal & Dovi. They should not be beating him consistently on the Tech 3 Yamies.

I think if Dovi hadn't pranged his bike he would have been 2nd on the weekend.

Stoner is definitely having problems with the curent tire allocation. In Catalunya he went for the hard compound & just wasn't competitive & ended up off the podium.

This time he went for softs & had used them up too early & had to fight off Pedrosa & even Bautista to keep them behind him to get second.

Honda & Stoner have some work to do to get that sorted. If it takes to long to find a solution then the title will be gone.

Fishing? What happened to Stoner at Silverstone is the same as Hayden. The rear tire went off. Stoner dropped to second behind an inferior Yamaha, and Hayden dropped to 7th behind a cripple. Both lack focus. Maybe Hayden is contemplating retirement as well? Or it could just be the aggressive bikes chew up tires. BTW I vote neither for best bike, depends on a lot of things re Chopperman post.

i cant tell cause theres a bunch of ....... on the Hondas.

The honda clearly has problems at the present, and the yamaha has one the last three races. So naturally the yamaha is the best at the moment in everyones mind.



In my opinion though, the main reason why everyone thinks that the honda is best is because of the fact that (as jumkie stated) everyone penciled in Stoner as the eventual winner in 2012. They believe now that Stoner is losing its clearly the bike that is having problems...Has anyone considered that Lorenzo is just killing it this season? Stoner can't match lorenzo because right now Lorenzo is faster. Sure, it is early in the season, but i think each bike has its fair share of advantages and disadvantages.

xx CURVE xx said:

i cant tell cause theres a bunch of ....... on the Hondas.

Click to expand...

Haha! Even the satellite hondas are giant pusses.



Jumkie. The length of your post tells me your trying to convince even yourself. Did that .... get longer since like a hour ago? CS would have better results on the yamaha. All seconds behind Jorge.

Stoners a weak minded quitter with no heart and no work ethic.



I hope during the summer break he gets some time to watch the Olympics and see what heart really means.

I think Ramon Forcada summed it up perfectly when describing the difference between the two most talented current riders. Casey is an animal while Jlo just bust his ass and pushes himself to keep getting better. The Yam is not the clear cut better bike as BS demonstrated this weekend when he used up his rear tire, the difference is Jlo and his riding style that he had to change when he went to Yam, he's been working hard at it while Casey has just been going fast. Five of the six factory bikes had tire issues... When Nicky was asked about the tires he said they have to figure out how to get the bike and him to work better with the tires, it's something that Jlo already has figured out and it's obviously a big part of racing especially with the changing weather conditions of this season. Jlo and his crew know what to do when they need to use the soft tire because they've put the time in, while CS has no clue and blames the same tire that was good enough to bring him home second. No one else claimed to have a defective tire and they dropped like stones when their tires fell off. It seems just going out and throwing in some fast laps has come back to bite CS right on the ass and he's just about always had problems with the soft tire option so he has no one to blame but himself for not working through that all these years.

Jlo and the rear tires

http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/177257/1/eye-opening_race_simulation_for_lorenzo.html

It is very hard for people who love Ben Spies to admit that Yamaha is the best bike.

When you look at the 800cc Yamaha, what they needed back then to beat Honda was some extra bhp, so when they transferred to 1000 cc they managed to get to that point and they still had the rock solid stability unlike Honda which lost the stability due to the new brutal engine they had.

On the other hand what Jumkie told in his post is absolutely right but its just one side of the coin. Honda really has serious problems. It is so obvious that Jorge is more focused and determined for the title but lets go back to the start of the season:

Qatar: Stoner had difficulty leading the race due to arm pump or tyre problems.

Jerez and Estoril: Casey won both of them but it was really a hard race for him. Because unlike last year where could take a gap when he was leading, Jorge was on his ass all the race because the new Yamaha don't get ...... by the Honda on the straights just like before and still has its rock solid stability.

Le Mans:Jorge Lorenzo was the only guy that did not get into the retirement news hype and went to the track and rode brilliantly. Unlike Stoner who got cought in the hype that he made it by himself and Lorenzo used it as an advantage and won that race too.

Catalunya: That race was all about Jorge and Pedrosa in front of the home crowd. I know that Dani is more of a ..... this year with the 1000cc compared to last year. But at that race he was pushing that Honda to its limits. But every time that Pedrosa had a chance to extend his gap with Jorge he chickened out because he thought the bike was really unstable.

Silverstone: Casey again couldn't hold the lead and lost to Jorge. I think unlike Casey's own words that the retirement will not affect his performance during the season it really is bothering him. Right now what goes on Jorge's mind is getting that title and what goes on Casey's mind is getting back to the girls and have fun (just read his repsol blog).



At the end: I think at this point the amount of effort and hardworking that Jorge puts in winning the title is more than the amount of hard work and effort the repsol boys bring to fix the bike and continue the season more competitive.



So my vote is Honda (without the chatter issue). But right now the Yamaha works much better because it has more stability and also it has the sufficient amount of bhp to deal with the flying Hondas in the straights.

wow, lengthy but great post jum!

i see the yamaha as being a bit ahead (valid points have been made in the thread)



why the podium has been "2/3 honda real estate" ? to be honest because hrc has the best riders ,i always ranked stoner a little bit above lorenzo talent wise (but maybe equal over a season, lorenzo is the definition of fighter,which i like about him) but i've also always ranked pedro as clearly the best after those 2 . (don't want to sound harsh but rossi doesn't matter as long has he's on the duc,he's not the same 99% of the time)



the fact that dovi (a smooth,fast rider) and crutchlow ( a very talented ,badass mo-fo) can run with the front may lead to the fallacy that the m1 is much better than the rc213v,which it is not. but i firmly believe if you replace pedrosa in hrc with one of the other riders,maybe bar rossi, hrcs resuts would be behind yamaha and clearly so

Wow, 12 to one!! way to be told you are a "know .... all" Jums, not that I think a popularity vote answers anything correctly. Except in this case it is folks way of saying ....... "fail"







PS. No doubt you'll be out there on the hustings now rallying the troops via the p"spam" system

No doubt who is riding the best this year, a bloke called jorge lorenzo. Calling the yamaha the best bike is excuse making the same as it has been in any other year. If it is, as is the case if the honda was last year, this is the aim of the sport, and it is or should be the aim of every rider to either get on the best bike or make their bike the best.



As I said in the other thread in the "modern" era , a period of 35 odd years, the record is 15 riders' championships each. It is my opinion, and only my opinion, that over this time honda have tended to build better engines, and yamaha have been a bit cleverer overall, particularly since it seems very likely that honda have expended more resources.



Still think having to rapidly re-develop bikes to suit tyres is stupid and definitely not cost saving though, and has handicapped the poorest manufacturers as much as or more than the richest.

Look at results. The move to 1000cc + the changes in weight and tires have given the edge to Yamaha. So far.

I was expecting to see the BMW S1000RR as an option...

So far those saying Yamaha is better are presenting as their evidence that Stoner, Pedro, and Honda bosses are complaining about it. Hey, im not winning, its obviously not me.



The rest too chicken to decide either way.