Joined Jul 2007
5K Posts | 1K+
unda cheese
Ben Spies' "Litany of reasons"
- Thread starter Kropotkin
- Start date
BJ.C
Where do you keep getting the wet part all the time? Wasn't particulary warm with 14 Celsius but it was perfectly dry and Spies just beat everyone on a dry track.
Fastest Lap:
Lap: 12
Ben SPIES
1'35.240
171.7 Km/h
Circuit Record Lap:
2010
Dani PEDROSA
1'34.525
173.0 Km/h
Where do you keep getting the wet part all the time? Wasn't particulary warm with 14 Celsius but it was perfectly dry and Spies just beat everyone on a dry track.
Fastest Lap:
Lap: 12
Ben SPIES
1'35.240
171.7 Km/h
Circuit Record Lap:
2010
Dani PEDROSA
1'34.525
173.0 Km/h
Joined May 2006
4K Posts | 2+
Mts-7
Ben Spies = 156lbs
Jorge Lorenzo = 143lbs (about average weight of the rest of the grid)
Dani Pedrosa = 113lbs
Who will have the consistent fast laps or tires that will last? or better yet, who will Bridgestone make tires to which riders needs?
I don't really buy any other factors had a effect as the tires.
Jorge Lorenzo = 143lbs (about average weight of the rest of the grid)
Dani Pedrosa = 113lbs
Who will have the consistent fast laps or tires that will last? or better yet, who will Bridgestone make tires to which riders needs?
I don't really buy any other factors had a effect as the tires.
So let me get this straight, just so I'm clear about the matter at hand.
In Qatar 2012, Factory Yamaha intentionally sent one Ben Spies out on a cracked subframe after spending two years developing him as a rider in the premier class so that they (Yamaha), looking incompetent in the process could get 4mil euro out of Monster a year later? I'm understanding this correctly?
Listen, Ben had a terrible year. When the bike wasn't falling apart, he was. And I don't really blame the guy, momentum is a huge part of any sport. He's far more talented than this season showed. But to put this down as another Rossi conspiracy is ....... crazy. Period.
In Qatar 2012, Factory Yamaha intentionally sent one Ben Spies out on a cracked subframe after spending two years developing him as a rider in the premier class so that they (Yamaha), looking incompetent in the process could get 4mil euro out of Monster a year later? I'm understanding this correctly?
Listen, Ben had a terrible year. When the bike wasn't falling apart, he was. And I don't really blame the guy, momentum is a huge part of any sport. He's far more talented than this season showed. But to put this down as another Rossi conspiracy is ....... crazy. Period.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Traverser
Thats a very lean 156. VR is also tall, but his body type seems lanky and natural unlike Ben. Travy, I wonder if he lost or gained weight after his AMA stints. Anyway, i'm guessing,(and I'm not a doctor like BJC) but perhaps to maintain that weight he may be subject to a critical mass regiment that makes his health severely difficult to maintain. Especially with him eating poison, which I'm sure is bad.
Anyway, to answer your question, I thought they were developing tires around James Ellison. No?
Thats a very lean 156. VR is also tall, but his body type seems lanky and natural unlike Ben. Travy, I wonder if he lost or gained weight after his AMA stints. Anyway, i'm guessing,(and I'm not a doctor like BJC) but perhaps to maintain that weight he may be subject to a critical mass regiment that makes his health severely difficult to maintain. Especially with him eating poison, which I'm sure is bad.
Anyway, to answer your question, I thought they were developing tires around James Ellison. No?
Oh, and the best part about this conspiracy is that it turns out that the racing department didn't want Rossi back. So this means the marketing guys were sneaking into Ben's garage at night.... Under Rossi's orders no less.
Please, go on, this story is amazing...
Please, go on, this story is amazing...
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
bluegreen
No, not at Qatar. I'd say the mechanicals were probably oversights that were difficult to detect rather than sabotage and others simply equipment malfunction. It happens, these things are machines. The conspiracy part is once Carmelo made it clear having VR on an uncompetitive bike would be a thing of the past so help him God. Then the backroom channels were in play and suddenly Spies looked very unattractive. His .... season was the perfect scapegoat. Look, if you are trying to make a case that seats are awarded by results then VR didn't deserve the seat either. And just to answer the peeps here saying half of these awful results were Ben's fault, allow me to remind you guys that all the top riders mention "confidence" as a prime factor for performance; so when your bike is snapping in half or your tires fall apart, or your visor makes you blind in a race, your engine goes up in smoke and drops oil, (also, wasn't there some brake issue at one point, can't remember off hand), this does NOT give you much confidence! This should be understood by both camps of our MotoGP fan base, Casey or Valentino fans, who both said during days of poor performance that they had not confidence in their bikes, Casey with the chattering problem and Valentino with the front end feel problems. So while there are some here quick to judge him on this season of unprecedented long list of well documented no-fault mechanicals, when the bike wasn't breaking down, the mere thought it might must have played an issue. Its not like when the swing-arm snapped he landed harmlessly on a bed of feathers.
Anyway, more to your point, lets stop pretending VR's switch to factory Yamaha was all transparent and done on the lofty merit basis. The series of events that force fed us seeing him on a factory M1 are already starting to fade and the revision is in full swing. I'm sure by Qatar this year it will all but be forgotten how the 46 reappeared on the M1 after a 2 year absence. The machinate continues.
No, not at Qatar. I'd say the mechanicals were probably oversights that were difficult to detect rather than sabotage and others simply equipment malfunction. It happens, these things are machines. The conspiracy part is once Carmelo made it clear having VR on an uncompetitive bike would be a thing of the past so help him God. Then the backroom channels were in play and suddenly Spies looked very unattractive. His .... season was the perfect scapegoat. Look, if you are trying to make a case that seats are awarded by results then VR didn't deserve the seat either. And just to answer the peeps here saying half of these awful results were Ben's fault, allow me to remind you guys that all the top riders mention "confidence" as a prime factor for performance; so when your bike is snapping in half or your tires fall apart, or your visor makes you blind in a race, your engine goes up in smoke and drops oil, (also, wasn't there some brake issue at one point, can't remember off hand), this does NOT give you much confidence! This should be understood by both camps of our MotoGP fan base, Casey or Valentino fans, who both said during days of poor performance that they had not confidence in their bikes, Casey with the chattering problem and Valentino with the front end feel problems. So while there are some here quick to judge him on this season of unprecedented long list of well documented no-fault mechanicals, when the bike wasn't breaking down, the mere thought it might must have played an issue. Its not like when the swing-arm snapped he landed harmlessly on a bed of feathers.
Anyway, more to your point, lets stop pretending VR's switch to factory Yamaha was all transparent and done on the lofty merit basis. The series of events that force fed us seeing him on a factory M1 are already starting to fade and the revision is in full swing. I'm sure by Qatar this year it will all but be forgotten how the 46 reappeared on the M1 after a 2 year absence. The machinate continues.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
bluegreen
So they didn't want VR back but they got him anyway? Uhm, what does that tell you? Very early on both HRC and Yamaha expressed they were satisfied with their line up and hand little to no interest in VR, fact. Then as the season continued they expressed a decidedly reversal on their initial expression on the matter. Again, no, I doubt there was deliberate sabotage, that would be too dangerous, but for you to dismiss the machinates behind the scenes is equally 'amazing'. What next, you gonna try to convince me the sudden disappearance of the Rookie Rule had nothing to do with MarcQuez, and was just "conspiracy" too? There was a very similar reversal in this case too. All you need to do is look to Dorna and their one track mined leader Carmelo for clues. Early on he said he would not bend the rules to allow Marc on a factory team, then what happened? Oh yeah, CS surprised Dorna (and I'm sure to their delight) that he was retiring. With it creating the need for Dorna to make a 180 after saying they would not bend the rules. Well, in a way they didn't "bent" the rule, they just 'eliminated' it with a magic stroke. Now I know the press release said it had nothing to do with Marc, and you probably won't read Kropo making the connection on his fine site (as he doesn't subscribe to such outlandish baseless unprovable 'conspiracy' theories...) but, but the fact remains, Dorna made a reversal (well documented) then gave us some ........ reason (many have swallowed it whole including the "experts", who seemed to give Dorna's reversal a pass by arguing that the 'sponsorship situation' was just to complicated and was actually a 'favor' done for Gresini for not forcing them to field the supposed greatest talent since sliced bread). This is an easy series of events to follow, and the SAME goes for the series of events that led to VRs move to Yamaha. Again, I agree with you that sabotage was unlikely, but you are using this to dismiss the obvious involvement by the league to get their golden goose back on top.
So they didn't want VR back but they got him anyway? Uhm, what does that tell you? Very early on both HRC and Yamaha expressed they were satisfied with their line up and hand little to no interest in VR, fact. Then as the season continued they expressed a decidedly reversal on their initial expression on the matter. Again, no, I doubt there was deliberate sabotage, that would be too dangerous, but for you to dismiss the machinates behind the scenes is equally 'amazing'. What next, you gonna try to convince me the sudden disappearance of the Rookie Rule had nothing to do with MarcQuez, and was just "conspiracy" too? There was a very similar reversal in this case too. All you need to do is look to Dorna and their one track mined leader Carmelo for clues. Early on he said he would not bend the rules to allow Marc on a factory team, then what happened? Oh yeah, CS surprised Dorna (and I'm sure to their delight) that he was retiring. With it creating the need for Dorna to make a 180 after saying they would not bend the rules. Well, in a way they didn't "bent" the rule, they just 'eliminated' it with a magic stroke. Now I know the press release said it had nothing to do with Marc, and you probably won't read Kropo making the connection on his fine site (as he doesn't subscribe to such outlandish baseless unprovable 'conspiracy' theories...) but, but the fact remains, Dorna made a reversal (well documented) then gave us some ........ reason (many have swallowed it whole including the "experts", who seemed to give Dorna's reversal a pass by arguing that the 'sponsorship situation' was just to complicated and was actually a 'favor' done for Gresini for not forcing them to field the supposed greatest talent since sliced bread). This is an easy series of events to follow, and the SAME goes for the series of events that led to VRs move to Yamaha. Again, I agree with you that sabotage was unlikely, but you are using this to dismiss the obvious involvement by the league to get their golden goose back on top.
Jumkie
So what exactly did anyone from the mechanics to the Dorna boogey man do to make Spies have a ...... season? Some one else on this thread stated Spies was qualifying well last season and that isn't true, he was crashing the .... out of the bike all season long. He is finished with yam and could have mentioned any of the ........ you guys are bringing up but all he said was a higher up was mistreating him. Comparing BS to VR and CS is ........, BS was never and will never be a motogp champion, he's said it himself that those guys are on another level.
So what exactly did anyone from the mechanics to the Dorna boogey man do to make Spies have a ...... season? Some one else on this thread stated Spies was qualifying well last season and that isn't true, he was crashing the .... out of the bike all season long. He is finished with yam and could have mentioned any of the ........ you guys are bringing up but all he said was a higher up was mistreating him. Comparing BS to VR and CS is ........, BS was never and will never be a motogp champion, he's said it himself that those guys are on another level.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
hawkdriver
hawkdriver
hawkdriver
Ben Spies has more talent than u can admit. And surely he would have had more success if his bike would not have been breaking apart on him multiple times. I wouldnt say he has the talent of CS, but who the .... was "comparing" them in this way as u suggest? VR doesnt have as much talent as u suggest that "comparing" them this way is out of the question, but rather VR has had a lot of help in that success. Im sure if a rider of Spies talent would have had exclusive special tires for several years and superior reliable equipment, he may have been a MotoGP champ. But we may never know. One thing we DO KNOW is VR was .... when not on the best equipment. FACT! So if people like u, who happily state that Spies is not of the caliber of VR, would have applied ur same standard of judgement in a world where Rossi would have spent his MotoGP career on a Ducati, im sure u would have happily said, VR is not champion material.
U remind me of the peeps that said u could never compare Casey with Rossi in terms of talent prior to 2010. Ah, how many happily declared that Casey was no match for Rossi. U can go back and read people making similar judgements as u have based on limited analysis of the record. It sure seemed VR was head and shoulders above the rest, especially his rival Casey. It was only a few who understood that VR, while on superior everything, looked good against Casey who was hampered by his package. Had it remained so, people like u would have happily declared the rest of ur lives how right u were. Enter 2011-12, and how wrong they they were! Its no different here with Spies, judging him on a ...... year and declaring he is not fit to be MotoGP champion material.
Zero. Thats what i've been saying, is it not? So whats ur point?
hawkdriver
What ........ are u specifically talking about that u want to dispute?
hawkdriver
Comparing was done in SPECIFIC terms. How did u miss that part? Its not that nuanced. Its "........" not to understand how the comparison was used to make a point. The comparison was made to make the point that MotoGP riders are often treated with a double standard. Or should i say more specifically, VR seems to ALWAYS be given the benefit of the doubt. I, and Friz for example, were making the point that if VR suffered the same mechanical mishaps there would have been hell to pay, most likely from fans such as urself, not to mention the "expert" media. Yet the same level of outrage would not /is not extended to Ben. Thats the comparison used here to make the distinction. So sorry to burst ur bubble, but mere humans can be compared to Rossi despite some thinking he is some special sacred superhuman whose name cannot be used in the presence of other riders.
Ben Spies has more talent than u can admit. And surely he would have had more success if his bike would not have been breaking apart on him multiple times. I wouldnt say he has the talent of CS, but who the .... was "comparing" them in this way as u suggest? VR doesnt have as much talent as u suggest that "comparing" them this way is out of the question, but rather VR has had a lot of help in that success. Im sure if a rider of Spies talent would have had exclusive special tires for several years and superior reliable equipment, he may have been a MotoGP champ. But we may never know. One thing we DO KNOW is VR was .... when not on the best equipment. FACT! So if people like u, who happily state that Spies is not of the caliber of VR, would have applied ur same standard of judgement in a world where Rossi would have spent his MotoGP career on a Ducati, im sure u would have happily said, VR is not champion material.
U remind me of the peeps that said u could never compare Casey with Rossi in terms of talent prior to 2010. Ah, how many happily declared that Casey was no match for Rossi. U can go back and read people making similar judgements as u have based on limited analysis of the record. It sure seemed VR was head and shoulders above the rest, especially his rival Casey. It was only a few who understood that VR, while on superior everything, looked good against Casey who was hampered by his package. Had it remained so, people like u would have happily declared the rest of ur lives how right u were. Enter 2011-12, and how wrong they they were! Its no different here with Spies, judging him on a ...... year and declaring he is not fit to be MotoGP champion material.
Jumkie
Rossi is on an M1 because of his past seasons on that bike and Yamaha's print copy department. I am under no illusions. It's clearly in spite of the last two years.
Ben had a .... season however. Blame Housworth, Ben whatever. The factory M1 was his to lose, he lost it.
Who is pretending it's based on merit? Find me a single post anywhere on this site from anybody? Talpa has been gone for a long time. You're dealing with a neo neo bopper now
Rossi is on an M1 because of his past seasons on that bike and Yamaha's print copy department. I am under no illusions. It's clearly in spite of the last two years.
Ben had a .... season however. Blame Housworth, Ben whatever. The factory M1 was his to lose, he lost it.
Jumkie
Yes, very early on quite satisfied. Then after half a season of .... from ben/s team, not so satisfied.
If ben finished the season in a strong 3rd/4th place, 1-2 wins, he's still wearing blue and white next year.
And if he did finish there and Rossi still gets the ride then yeah, I'll agree with you. But he finished in what 13th place? I don't even remember. But it was bad.
Yes, very early on quite satisfied. Then after half a season of .... from ben/s team, not so satisfied.
If ben finished the season in a strong 3rd/4th place, 1-2 wins, he's still wearing blue and white next year.
And if he did finish there and Rossi still gets the ride then yeah, I'll agree with you. But he finished in what 13th place? I don't even remember. But it was bad.
Bsnell
Completely missing the point is nothing new for you.
And your opinion matters less to me than does losing a fart.
Completely missing the point is nothing new for you.
And your opinion matters less to me than does losing a fart.
Frizzle
He's absolutely entitled to his opinion, as am I. However, I didn't cast aspersions on his 'expertise' because he's new, or whatever other ........ argument he brought up.
I think my opinion of Spies is valid, based on the facts and his ability to deliver. You are perfectly within your rights to disagree, based on facts as you see them, but not because you think 'you haven't been here long enough to have an opinion'.
His post may have made complete sense, but when he starts out by impugning my opinion based on nothing more than his superiority in a ....... forum, he can kiss my fat pimpled ....
He's absolutely entitled to his opinion, as am I. However, I didn't cast aspersions on his 'expertise' because he's new, or whatever other ........ argument he brought up.
I think my opinion of Spies is valid, based on the facts and his ability to deliver. You are perfectly within your rights to disagree, based on facts as you see them, but not because you think 'you haven't been here long enough to have an opinion'.
His post may have made complete sense, but when he starts out by impugning my opinion based on nothing more than his superiority in a ....... forum, he can kiss my fat pimpled ....
Jumkie
It's a sign of the times... Stoner was a whiner, so's Spies. They shoudl all just man up like Rossi.
(no hard feelings.)
3400431357657847
:lol: yeah, i did come off a bit harsh dude, but come on man, calling Spies a "whiner" cuz he blamed some mechanicals last season on some bad luck? Thats gonna get a reaction. Anyway, about my literacy, yeah, its terrible. Keep in mind, im responding by phone so im texting using 'shorthand'. Something foreign to us 'oldtimers'. (ur not that much older than me).
It's a sign of the times... Stoner was a whiner, so's Spies. They shoudl all just man up like Rossi.
(no hard feelings.)
heyhuub
Sorry, you're right - it was dry, with very high humidity and cold windy weather and times were way off compared to the year before and after.
2010 1'34.525
2011 1'35.240
2012 1'34.548
I guess winning one race in 50 starts on one of the best rides on the planet is a decent enough return for the millions of dollars Yamaha have spent on Spies.
How dare they question his riding?
Sorry, you're right - it was dry, with very high humidity and cold windy weather and times were way off compared to the year before and after.
2010 1'34.525
2011 1'35.240
2012 1'34.548
I guess winning one race in 50 starts on one of the best rides on the planet is a decent enough return for the millions of dollars Yamaha have spent on Spies.
How dare they question his riding?
You guys must be bored to death hahah, are we really still arguing about why Ben lost his yamaha ride?
He sucked, and had alot of bad luck, but mostly sucked. You could even say he made his own luck.
Ben's results up until this season had been promising, but 2012 was horrible. To sum up on what others said: Ben was watched by yamaha ever since his dominance in wsbk began, and then he started sucking, so they said peace. It wasn't dorna trying to sabotage his bike to make room for rossi. Yes, they are business men, but not evil.
EDIT:
And i'm not saying im not a fan of the guy, i've been rooting for him ever since his AMA days against mladin. I'm just pointing out what happened and my opinion.
He sucked, and had alot of bad luck, but mostly sucked. You could even say he made his own luck.
Ben's results up until this season had been promising, but 2012 was horrible. To sum up on what others said: Ben was watched by yamaha ever since his dominance in wsbk began, and then he started sucking, so they said peace. It wasn't dorna trying to sabotage his bike to make room for rossi. Yes, they are business men, but not evil.
EDIT:
And i'm not saying im not a fan of the guy, i've been rooting for him ever since his AMA days against mladin. I'm just pointing out what happened and my opinion.
Ben spies in an excellent rider, and has proven himself to be a world class motorcycle racer. Pole position and Win in Motogp, numerous podiums, superbike WORLD CHAMPION. These things cannot be ignored.
He also had a very very unfortunate year in 2012, some very peculiar mishaps which cannot easily be explained. This cannot be ignored.
Race results and bad luck aside, Ben's performance this year was simply not good enough to justify a factory seat in motogp. This cannot be ignored.
Ben Spies is a world class rider, but I think he has done well to stay in motogp at all. There are people I would rather have seen take the ride he's got but it's understandable. From a teams point of view there is an option to take a guy you know can win and see if you can unlock that potential, or take a guy who might have the potential to win and see what happens. As others have said the change of scene might bring the best out of Ben, and we could see him at his best next year. That'd be nice to see, and especially nice for him since if it doesn't happen I wouldn't expect to see him in motogp for much longer
He also had a very very unfortunate year in 2012, some very peculiar mishaps which cannot easily be explained. This cannot be ignored.
Race results and bad luck aside, Ben's performance this year was simply not good enough to justify a factory seat in motogp. This cannot be ignored.
Ben Spies is a world class rider, but I think he has done well to stay in motogp at all. There are people I would rather have seen take the ride he's got but it's understandable. From a teams point of view there is an option to take a guy you know can win and see if you can unlock that potential, or take a guy who might have the potential to win and see what happens. As others have said the change of scene might bring the best out of Ben, and we could see him at his best next year. That'd be nice to see, and especially nice for him since if it doesn't happen I wouldn't expect to see him in motogp for much longer
