Ben Spies' "Litany of reasons"

Frizzle

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Not sure how much is the teams fault. How many of his team besides Houseworth followed him over from Tech3?

I don't remember him having any issues at all there. Was very consistent & the bike worked well for him. Fast forward one year on a factory spec bike & team & all of a sudden he is slower compared to the competition? I don't know. Something just doesn't sound right about that. Did any bike on the grid have half the mechanical failures Ben's factory Yamaha had? Everybody seems to point the finger at Ben & his team but how does a factory spec bike, backed by a major manufacturer like Yamaha have so many part failures on one side of the garage & not one on the other? Doesn't sit right with me. Yamaha seem to be blameless according to most observers, but they are the one manufacturing & supplying those failing parts. I ask this. If Valentino has the same amount of failures as Ben did with Lorenzo having none, do you think his fans will let Yamaha off the hook so easy? No chance. And rightly so. I just think perhaps Ben deserves the same consideration. After all he proved in 2010 he could ride a Yamaha fast.

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If the same thing happen to Rossi, Ezpeleta would be red flagging races and a judge would be called in to hold an inquiry.  Yamaha would be threatened with a control bike if they didn't swap his bike for Lorenzo's.

Frizzle

3399201357246204


Not sure how much is the teams fault. How many of his team besides Houseworth followed him over from Tech3?

I don't remember him having any issues at all there. Was very consistent & the bike worked well for him. Fast forward one year on a factory spec bike & team & all of a sudden he is slower compared to the competition? I don't know. Something just doesn't sound right about that. Did any bike on the grid have half the mechanical failures Ben's factory Yamaha had? Everybody seems to point the finger at Ben & his team but how does a factory spec bike, backed by a major manufacturer like Yamaha have so many part failures on one side of the garage & not one on the other? Doesn't sit right with me. Yamaha seem to be blameless according to most observers, but they are the one manufacturing & supplying those failing parts. I ask this. If Valentino has the same amount of failures as Ben did with Lorenzo having none, do you think his fans will let Yamaha off the hook so easy? No chance. And rightly so. I just think perhaps Ben deserves the same consideration. After all he proved in 2010 he could ride a Yamaha fast.

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At last some sense being spoken. nice one.

I think part of the bike breaking during races problem came from Ben crashing the .... out of both of his bikes during practice and not having the spares everyone thinks they carry around. Ben was tearing those bikes up during practice and races. I can't remember how many times I was watching a practice or qualy and when it seemed like Ben was gonna have a last minute competitive lap he would bin the damn thing. 


Here are his GP stats


 


First Grand Prix 2008 - GBR  


First pole position 2010 - INP  


First race fastest lap 2011 - NED


First podium 2010 - GBR  


First Grand Prix victory 2011 - NED  


Grand Prix victories 1


2nd Positions 2


3rd Positions 3


Podiums 6


Poles 1


Race fastest lap 1 

 

I would've liked to see him take the BMW WSBK offer.  They are probably on the cusp of winning a title in WSBK.  Spies just strikes me as much more naturally talented on a SBK than a MotoGP machine.  I don't think things will go any better for him at Pramac in relation to his time at Yamaha.  If he returns to WSBK, which he would be still in his prime, I think he could be mentioned among the greats if he is still on form from '09.

hawkdriver

3399231357268852


I think part of the bike breaking during races problem came from Ben crashing the .... out of both of his bikes during practice and not having the spares everyone thinks they carry around. Ben was tearing those bikes up during practice and races. I can't remember how many times I was watching a practice or qualy and when it seemed like Ben was gonna have a last minute competitive lap he would bin the damn thing. 

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What he said!


 


I don't dislike Spies, but I do think he is his own worst enemy and he is riding, or trying to ride, above his ability. His run of 'bad luck' seems to be consistent, as does his run of crashes.


 


What is it Arnold Palmer said, 'The more I practice, the luckier I get'? I think the inverse is true, the more he failed to get to grips with the M1, the unluckier he became.

Frizzle

3399201357246204


Not sure how much is the teams fault. How many of his team besides Houseworth followed him over from Tech3?

I don't remember him having any issues at all there. Was very consistent & the bike worked well for him. Fast forward one year on a factory spec bike & team & all of a sudden he is slower compared to the competition?

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IIRC Tech3 have their own team, the riders come and go. Spies brought Houseworth with him, but he was still under the wing of Guy Coulon. Both Spies and Houseworth benefitted from GCs immense experience. 


 


IIRC Dovi wanted to bring an Italian chief engineer to Tech3, but eventually succumbed to pressure and took Coulon as his crew chief. 


 


The second year, Spies went to Yamaha and took Houseworth, but no longer had Coulon there as an overall technical resource.


 


I think that has as much to do with his 'bad luck' as anything else.


 


As has been reiterated many times, riders aren't engineers. They ride what they are given and try to work with the crew to get the best out of the bike and to feed back to the R&D engineers to get improvements. I would say that the majority of the bike improvements were aimed at giving Lorenzo what he wanted.


 


Perhaps the rookie rule was smart and expecting these guys to just turn up to GP racing and start winning is a pipe dream. Perhaps the whole 'apprenticeship' thing of 125/250/GP racing is the correct way to build a GP winner, just as dirt, MX, speedway, SS, SBK is the 'right' way to build an SBK winner.


 


The only other moderately successful race winners to come from SBK didn't bring baggage, they worked with the team they were assigned to, and benefitted from the years of experience those teams have gained in GP racing.


 


Bringing a relative newbie like Houseworth to GP and expecting him to be able to run a top GP team with only one year of experience could be a bridge too far.


 


I think if Spies wants to be successful, he needs to dump Momma and House and go with the crew the team provides, to go with the settings they recommend and to ameliorate his style to suit the bike he is riding.


 


After all, I wouldn't expect to sail an Olympic-class catamaran the same what I do my Wharram... you need to adapt.

Spies, Rossi, and Hayden....their problem is weight.   They are the heaviest on the factory teams.   Guess who weighs the most......?  and from motogp.com, looks like Bradl is the forth, and that is almost 20lbs under the highest....


 


Where do GP racers go once they retire?   Racing the Kentucky Derby

#22

3399191357245695


Yamaha said "Don't bother showing up if you aren't going to be 100%" ....

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Imagine Ducati had said that to Rossi.

GeePee

339936

 

 

Imagine Ducati had said that to Rossi.

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After the first few laps of Valencia testing!

After having all this time to reflect upon Ben Spies and his woes with Yamaha, I have my theory.  Ben we all know is a quiet dude, sorta doesn't want the spotlight in a big persona kind of way.  You would think that would go over well with Lorenzo and Yamaha since Jorge is a wanna be Rossi type anyhow.  But when the other guy starts to do well, the other gets threatened.  Now I know Ben wasn't leading the championship, but I don't think he was into playing second fiddle to anyone.  The points up for grabs, the state of the championship at that point for Jorge, leads me to belive that Yamaha protected its leader and number one rider.  Ok ok, so Vale is going to come aboard right?  And this theory doesn't transfer over right?  Right!  Vale is at the end of his career, so who cares if he wins a race, even the championship, he's frickin Valentino Rossi!  He is and will be a marketing juggernaut for Yam in the Future, so it doesn't matter if he wins a bit more, cause he is almost done anyway.  Yamaha had to know this, anyone could see the disaster at Ducati.  Yamaha had to be licking its chops, and made a move.  As basic as it is, they said Eff Ben Spies, we have a number one rider, we don't need another.  But...a legend who is about to retire in two years give or take, that is money in the bank with all the marketing they can do, like pro model, special liveried bikes just to name one.  So Yamaha knew that they had an opportunity to get Rossi back, they have a good relationship, but have a naggin thorn in their side...Ben.  In the past few years of racing, we haven't seen any one rider have such issues mechanically, especially on a factory bike, let alone the M1.  Everytime I watched Ben, and what was happening, it didn't seem right at all.  Now you can come up with excuses about this and that wrecknig the bike, had to fix it blah blah blah.  But that happens quite a bit to everyone, not just Ben.  So why did the failures keep happening?  Then...you put that executives scathing remarks to Ben, and it just seemed as though, the Japanese were being impatient, and brazen.  Ben leaves, WELCOME HOME VALE...lol.       Now you can think what you want.  But to me at least.  No one is going to convince me, that it all was just bad luck and circumstance.  Yamaha played some dirty tricks on Ben plain and simple.  Now they have their number one, and legend.  That is what they wanted all along.

You are right - it wasn't just bad luck and circumstance. It was a team that didn't attend to the details, for whatever reason, and a rider that couldn't get to grips with the best all-round bike in the paddock.


 


The rest of your post seems a little tin-foil-hatted.


 


If you think Yamaha would intentionally scupper a multi-million-dollar factory team ride to play political shenanigans, you need your head read.

yep, ....... with a dudes bike is akin to first degree murder if he happens to lose his life whilst crashing said machine.


can you imagine the law suit from lady spies if ben died when the suspension linkage failed, and it was proven to be yamahas doing?


that .... just doesnt happen. its motogp, not black ops in the middle east.

ROCKGOD01

3399581357440787


But to me at least.  No one is going to convince me, that it all was just bad luck and circumstance.  Yamaha played some dirty tricks on Ben plain and simple.  Now they have their number one, and legend.  That is what they wanted all along.

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Sorry, I just don't see it.  Spies' contract was up at the end of the year, and he was a long ways from beating J-Lo consistently enough to damage his title run.  While I'm sure that certain people within the organization are capable of this sort of sabotage, there was never a need for it.  Not even Alberto Puig throws the kittens in the blender w/o a good reason.   

Not only that, they were paying him millions of dollars to be competitive - an employer talking to an employee that isn't performing and registering disapproval, even hinting of repercussions if he doesn't pull his finger??? Oh no! 


 


I am sure execs at Yamaha don't just come out and tell someone they aren't meeting expectations when it's the hardware that is failing - no doubt they have a better insight than us about what goes on and why components have been breaking on that side of the garage.


 


Don't forget, Yamaha fought to bring Spies to the show, paid for him to get the Tech3 ride and brought him into the top team as soon as they could, observing the rookie rule of course.


 


Making up some story about machinations within the star chamber at Hamamatsu to effectively flush 10M or so of investment down the track just so Rossi could get a ride is ludicrous. 


 


I am betting it has mostly to do with his abject failure to be competitive.

BJ.C

3399881357521343


Not only that, they were paying him millions of dollars to be competitive - an employer talking to an employee that isn't performing and registering disapproval, even hinting of repercussions if he doesn't pull his finger??? Oh no! 


 


I am sure execs at Yamaha don't just come out and tell someone they aren't meeting expectations when it's the hardware that is failing - no doubt they have a better insight than us about what goes on and why components have been breaking on that side of the garage.


 


Don't forget, Yamaha fought to bring Spies to the show, paid for him to get the Tech3 ride and brought him into the top team as soon as they could, observing the rookie rule of course.


 


Making up some story about machinations within the star chamber at Hamamatsu to effectively flush 10M or so of investment down the track just so Rossi could get a ride is ludicrous. 


 


I am betting it has mostly to do with his abject failure to be competitive.

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+1


 


I like Ben, but this tinfoil hat stuff is silly. If you're unclear as to why he isn't on an M1 this year, go back and watch last year.

BJ.C

3399881357521343


Not only that, they were paying him millions of dollars to be competitive - an employer talking to an employee that isn't performing and registering disapproval, even hinting of repercussions if he doesn't pull his finger??? Oh no! 


 


I am sure execs at Yamaha don't just come out and tell someone they aren't meeting expectations when it's the hardware that is failing - no doubt they have a better insight than us about what goes on and why components have been breaking on that side of the garage.


 


Don't forget, Yamaha fought to bring Spies to the show, paid for him to get the Tech3 ride and brought him into the top team as soon as they could, observing the rookie rule of course.


 


Making up some story about machinations within the star chamber at Hamamatsu to effectively flush 10M or so of investment down the track just so Rossi could get a ride is ludicrous. 


 


I am betting it has mostly to do with his abject failure to be competitive.

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the nail on the head

I am leaning towards the theory of Rockgod01 on this one. Ben was always good on the Yamaha, on the Tech3 or on the factory machine he always delivered, till 2012. The only other alternative what I could imagine that changing back to the liter bikes was not the best outcome for him but after winning WSBK so convincingly it still does not fit in the picture. So either we he had the unluckiest season ever amongst GP-riders or he khm lets just say had not got the same support/attention as the No1-rider. If his mom is such a hothead, he/she must have got a couple of enemies during the time in the factory squad, that could have not helped his case either. I would consider getting on a racebike that was checked/prepared by pissed off mechanics.


For Yamaha, what happened was the best possible scenario. Now they have many sponsors and the biggest star who helps selling their bikes. I am sure that at Yamaha the management had already evaluated the possible scenarios after 2011 when they had almost only Petronas as big supporter (I remember also some articles about Yamaha as company having serious financial troubles) and they saw what was happening to Rossi. I am also sure that after the first couple of races last year Rossi already had serious doubts about his Ducati-commitment and was also  measuring up his opportunities for the future. If Ben would have been average during his past seasons with Yamaha, I would probably opposed these conspiracy theories, but it was not the case, at some time he was told to be the next alien. Like I said, what happened was the best scenario for Yamaha, Rossi and Dorna (no need to explain ) so it is hard not to connect the lines. This sport is controlled by businessmen who are not afraid of using not so honorable tools for acheving their goals, especially in these hard economical times.

torro

3399951357562315


I am leaning towards the theory of Rockgod01 on this one.  ..... If Ben would have been average during his past seasons with Yamaha, I would probably opposed these conspiracy theories, but it was not the case, at some time he was told to be the next alien. Like I said, what happened was the best scenario for Yamaha, Rossi and Dorna (no need to explain ) so it is hard not to connect the lines. This sport is controlled by businessmen who are not afraid of using not so honorable tools for acheving their goals, especially in these hard economical times.

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SERIOUSLY!?!


 


No offense to those of you that think his 2012 Season mechanical woes were all a big conspiracy that was deliberate to make Ben Spies look bad (and possibly hurt him).......but you are out of your minds.....


 


See BJC's comments for some sanity.....


 


Ben underperformed, and he had bad luck....when he didnt have bad luck he STILL underperformed....


Good luck to him in 2013, he is going to need it on that Ducati being developed under Nicky's needs....

I think some of the barbs directed at Rossi could haunt Spies in the future. As Migs says,he underperformed on the Yamaha, and with as many race wins in motogp as Elias, he hasn't got the pedigree to be coming out with that ..... He was consistently out performed by the satellite Yams last season, mechanical issues or not. It's hard to defend his performance when his team mate won the title on the same bike. File under another another  superbiker who could not make the cut in GP.

So ok, You have Mary Spies giving the team and Yamaha a bit of a bad image.  The Japs don't deal well with that at all.  WHy would someone say the things they did to Ben?  I mean that stuff is usually something that goes on behind closed doors.  I always follow the money.  And no matter what Ben got paid, it is no where near what Yamaha stands to gain from Vale on the team at the end of his career, and then to be an ambassador for the company.  That is easily going to trump anything Ben brought to the table.  I just think Yamaha got fed up, the teams attitude must have gotten sour, the heads got sour, Ben is reviled, the whole thing starts to stink race after race, we as fans all saw what happened to Ben.  I am not a tin foil hat conspiracy theorist, it is just economics and what you have to do to get them in your favor.  Don't forget, Yamaha had no main sponsor last year.  Ben didn't bring money.  But Vale can.  And Yamaha knew it could use a big Sponsor.  Aren't they supposed to have Monster sponsorship now?  Maybe I am not surprised at all cause I have been part of the corporate world and how fast people gain and lose favor with the Executives.  So Ben Underperformed right?  Well wouldn't you if you had to face this mountain of crap coming at you?  I would think so.