Battles

frethammer · Dec 4, 2011

Here I am again, well let me cut it and get straight to the point. I just came to the realization that THAT yamaha 800 is the best bike of the 800cc's. Well not because it took 3 of 5 seasons of it. But judging from the videos on youtube I have seen, it's so freakin' smooth. I recently just watch catalunya 07', Rossi was slick, while Casey is clearly bouncing all over the place and keeping his duc tight. True that Rossi is the more smoother rider than Casey, but even Jorge/Dani can be aggressive yet their bikes don't wooble as much. I think the consensus here is that Stoner did a great job of masking the flaws of the ducati. Yet, I believe while Casey is doing that, he also sacrifice being unable to battle around that much, Laguna Seca '08 is a focal point. But Casey just overshot his breaking point that time, unlike Vale's yam that's very stable and easy on the corners. I also saw a video of Casey in 'tube where he overtook KR jr. ('06 on a sat hond while Pedro on a factory honda is trailing him) Very intense stuff. Yeah that's right, I'm now a Casey fan.

Well anyway, those yamahas are best machines to have when it comes to close racing. Those dukes are in the middle, it just depends on the pilots. Can't freakin' turn and all that, all it has is a massive engine. Honda's a great for quick laps. I think thats the difference between these top manufacturer bikes. And of course complimented and put to good use by it's pilots.

I just wanna put a big question mark on Casey's performance when it comes to battling/close racing. He sure did fail at it this year at some tracks (and won some too), but hey. I'm also considering the bikes, I never seen Pedrosa battle before in the premiere class on his honda. But he did beat Casey in the lower class right?

Pander · Dec 4, 2011

Rossi and Lorenzo are hands down the best battlers out there, probably followed by Casey as we aint seen him race someone with similar pace as him in recent seasons, you can't include 09 or 10. Pedro doesnt seem like he can do it which is why he will never will a championship and I would hedge my bets on Mr Spies being pretty handy in close combat.

truent · Dec 4, 2011

Pander said:
Rossi and Lorenzo are hands down the best battlers out there, probably followed by Casey as we aint seen him race someone with similar pace as him in recent seasons, you can't include 09 or 10. Pedro doesnt seem like he can do it which is why he will never will a championship and I would hedge my bets on Mr Spies being pretty handy in close combat.

No doubt about Spies being up to snuff, he's no stranger to the battle..

As far as Casey goes.. if I remember right, i started watching in 05.. so 06 is a lil hazy except some keypoints.. but Casey was badass on the Honda out the gate with some front row starts etc.. also remember 07 was the year where bridgestones finally had a better tire than michelin, wasn't it that year they did away with the overnights? i might be wrong.. but i think frethammer is right, in that he masked the faults of the ducati, and played up its strengths, but also it seems like either the bike was perfect and he flew off into the sunset, or didn't work at all.. and was the case throughout his entire time with ducati.. so seems to me like there was a real small margin for getting it right, but when it was there for him, he took it.. kind of similar to him at valencia on the honda this year.. perfect to churn out some good laps, but tires started going, conditions were dodgy and he can't cope.. (although it worked out in the end of course)

best overall.. for sure the yamaha as far as a bike everyone can get along with and stable as a rock.. but i think if we did a few more 800cc seasons.. honda might have something to say about that.. just look at this year.. they got it right, for sure..

Pander · Dec 4, 2011

Casey only won it because of the HP advantage and possibly Spies went on the paint causing him to spin up, its all irrelevant, because Iv just watched The Matrix and the character "mouse" looks like a dead ringer.

LOL

michaelm · Dec 4, 2011

truent said:
No doubt about Spies being up to snuff, he's no stranger to the battle..

As far as Casey goes.. if I remember right, i started watching in 05.. so 06 is a lil hazy except some keypoints.. but Casey was badass on the Honda out the gate with some front row starts etc.. also remember 07 was the year where bridgestones finally had a better tire than michelin, wasn't it that year they did away with the overnights? i might be wrong.. but i think frethammer is right, in that he masked the faults of the ducati, and played up its strengths, but also it seems like either the bike was perfect and he flew off into the sunset, or didn't work at all.. and was the case throughout his entire time with ducati.. so seems to me like there was a real small margin for getting it right, but when it was there for him, he took it.. kind of similar to him at valencia on the honda this year.. perfect to churn out some good laps, but tires started going, conditions were dodgy and he can't cope.. (although it worked out in the end of course)

I think most of this is true, as valentino has also found, the thing just won't turn, not conducive to battling. I don't think it is true to say stoner can't cope with dodgy conditions though, he usually excels in the wet and in changeable conditions such as the Italian race he stole in 2009. I think in the last race he had decided in view of recent events and that he had clinched the title not to push too hard, then realised he still had a chance to win on the last lap. All credit to ben spies for being prepared to push so hard in those conditions.

BarryMachine · Dec 4, 2011

95% of the time Stoner forces a mistake from the battling opponent, there's nobody out there ATM better.

He just does it in one move. Perhaps what you are calling battling is more of an inability to shut the gate on a move by the likes of Rossi, Lorenzo, and definitely Pedrosa.

Spies has shut the gate once at Assen ...... and I thought he would at Valencia too ...... but I think Casey had "jiggled" with the lock

Is this "batting" the latest ....... Rossi is the best "but Rossi is the best at ...... anything else obscure blah blah blah .... )

"Battling" is winning the race, not showing an inability to pull away ...... I'd even add that it may be harder ( more of a struggle/battle ) to stay out in front than get there.

Rossi has a real deficiency in the battle with self control, hence he cannot pull away. The Boppers have for some reason tried to put a good slant on this inadequacy by selling the idea that he actually likes being in close proximity ....... and yet ..... look at the performance on the Duc. No ....... Rossi just realises he is a danger to himself if he has to pace himself.

If its staying on a bike whilst in close proximity to others ..... Stoner hands down ....... he even saves riders who have made big mistakes ergo .... Laguna Seca 2008 at the corkscrew.

spooky · Dec 5, 2011

I think Casey and Lorenzo are as good as eachother really. I would say Rossi is more inclined to go for the do or die move though... he also has more experience than the other 2 when it comes to close battles. If all 3 were battling on the last lap, you know Rossi would make the move noone else thinks possible.

As for Casey, does anyone remember Catalunya '07? Super close battle between him, Rossi and Pedrosa - 1 of the best infact.

cliche guevara · Dec 5, 2011

yeah that race is one of my all time favorites.

agree with what youre saying although i'd say that in addition to that rossi is probably the single one of them that would win at all costs, i can't imagine stoner or lorenzo running each other off in the last corners. this last lap do or die mentality has contributed greatly to the rossi legend, as controversial as it may be , it catches the imagination of most viewers

spooky · Dec 5, 2011

Yeah, thats why i'm a big fan of his tbh. I do like the 'show'. Just wish there were more really.

truent · Dec 5, 2011

michaelm said:
I think most of this is true, as valentino has also found, the thing just won't turn, not conducive to battling. I don't think it is true to say stoner can't cope with dodgy conditions though, he usually excels in the wet and in changeable conditions such as the Italian race he stole in 2009. I think in the last race he had decided in view of recent events and that he had clinched the title not to push too hard, then realised he still had a chance to win on the last lap. All credit to ben spies for being prepared to push so hard in those conditions.

for sure, i don't mean to say he's no good in crap conditions.. he might be the best period.. it's definitely hard to prove otherwise at the moment..

personally i think it's because he doesn't run many laps/race simulation type runs during practice to get a grip on how everything will feel at the end of the race.. his approach seems to be to just do his best to blast off in the beginning, then does what he can toward the end.. and you're probably right about valencia.. probably a bad example

as for battlers; simoncelli will be missed..

Pander · Dec 6, 2011

BarryMachine said:
95% of the time Stoner forces a mistake from the battling opponent, there's nobody out there ATM better.

He just does it in one move. Perhaps what you are calling battling is more of an inability to shut the gate on a move by the likes of Rossi, Lorenzo, and definitely Pedrosa.

Spies has shut the gate once at Assen ...... and I thought he would at Valencia too ...... but I think Casey had "jiggled" with the lock

Is this "batting" the latest ....... Rossi is the best "but Rossi is the best at ...... anything else obscure blah blah blah .... )

"Battling" is winning the race, not showing an inability to pull away ...... I'd even add that it may be harder ( more of a struggle/battle ) to stay out in front than get there.

Rossi has a real deficiency in the battle with self control, hence he cannot pull away. The Boppers have for some reason tried to put a good slant on this inadequacy by selling the idea that he actually likes being in close proximity ....... and yet ..... look at the performance on the Duc. No ....... Rossi just realises he is a danger to himself if he has to pace himself.

If its staying on a bike whilst in close proximity to others ..... Stoner hands down ....... he even saves riders who have made big mistakes ergo .... Laguna Seca 2008 at the corkscrew.

You couldnt get any further from the point of the original post. I class a battle as people that have similar race pace throughout and fight for position eg Rossi/Lorenzo Catalunya. The reason I rate Casey a behind those 2 is because of his amazing ability to just pull away and leave opposition without giving them a chance, and going by the 1 race last season where the Yamahas had similar race pace was Mugello, where Lorenzo caught him and passed him 3/4 through a race. Not exactly a battle but the closest thing going.

And as someone said Simoncelli the hardest guy out there will be sorely missed for the entertainment value.

spooky · Dec 6, 2011

Pander said:
You couldnt get any further from the point of the original post. I class a battle as people that have similar race pace throughout and fight for position eg Rossi/Lorenzo Catalunya. The reason I rate Casey a behind those 2 is because of his amazing ability to just pull away and leave opposition without giving them a chance, and going by the 1 race last season where the Yamahas had similar race pace was Mugello, where Lorenzo caught him and passed him 3/4 through a race. Not exactly a battle but the closest thing going.

And as someone said Simoncelli the hardest guy out there will be sorely missed for the entertainment value.

I'm afraid this if often the case with BM... Any reason to slate Rossi and his fans eh?

The top guys like a fight, though i think Dani could harden up a little. He doesn't have the do or die attitude that Rossi and Jorge have. We don't often see Stoner being forced to fight as he's too damn quick!

Tom · Dec 6, 2011

Pedrosa struggles to battle because he is physically too small, while the big riders have an advantage. Dani can battle as hard as anyone on a bike that fits him. Rossi is of course one of the best riders we have seen when it comes to overtaking, but we have also seen he is prepared to take it closer to the edge than most. Casey does not have that attitude, he races smarter and only makes a move he knows he can pull off.

BarryMachine · Dec 6, 2011

Pander said:
You couldnt get any further from the point of the original post. I class a battle as people that have similar race pace throughout and fight for position eg Rossi/Lorenzo Catalunya. The reason I rate Casey a behind those 2 is because of his amazing ability to just pull away and leave opposition without giving them a chance, and going by the 1 race last season where the Yamahas had similar race pace was Mugello, where Lorenzo caught him and passed him 3/4 through a race. Not exactly a battle but the closest thing going.

And as someone said Simoncelli the hardest guy out there will be sorely missed for the entertainment value.

Which was not a jot on Catalunya 07.

Truck load of crap ........... so by your reasoning two turtles who walked over each other whilst Stoner was racing them ( but had mysteriously pulled away ) was worthy of some merit .

Get real mate

The only battle in the race is to get to the line first.

Why aren't you raving about say Abrahams and Crutchlow .......? or any other two back markers?

No ..... your reasoning has to have Rossi in it ................ next time why not "Rossi has the most yellow"

.... me! I don't know why some of you are into this sport ........ watch WWF its more what you need.

Pander · Dec 6, 2011

BarryMachine said:
Which was not a jot on Catalunya 07.

Truck load of crap ........... so by your reasoning two turtles who walked over each other whilst Stoner was racing them ( but had mysteriously pulled away ) was worthy of some merit .

Get real mate

The only battle in the race is to get to the line first.

Why aren't you raving about say Abrahams and Crutchlow .......? or any other two back markers?

No ..... your reasoning has to have Rossi in it ................ next time why not "Rossi has the most yellow"

.... me! I don't know why some of you are into this sport ........ watch WWF its more what you need.

All you come out with is ....., might not have many posts on here but been lurking a while, and from what I see you sound like a geriatric old basterd. I don't care if people have a pop at me for what I said, this forum is just full of opinionated gang bangers who lick the arse off of there chosen racer. At no point did I say anything derogatory about Casey yet you go off on one as if he's your best mate and your backing him up no ? This will just turn into another disjointed ...... of a thread. And for the record, I love watching midfield people like Bautista, Abraham, Crutchlow bash each other around, and I could bet your bottom dollar, if the field were on Moto2 bikes there would be a few more aliens, and then you would see who the real fighters are !

BarryMachine · Dec 7, 2011

Pander said:
All you come out with is ....., might not have many posts on here but been lurking a while, and from what I see you sound like a geriatric old basterd. I don't care if people have a pop at me for what I said, this forum is just full of opinionated gang bangers who lick the arse off of there chosen racer. At no point did I say anything derogatory about Casey yet you go off on one as if he's your best mate and your backing him up no ? This will just turn into another disjointed ...... of a thread. And for the record, I love watching midfield people like Bautista, Abraham, Crutchlow bash each other around, and I could bet your bottom dollar, if the field were on Moto2 bikes there would be a few more aliens, and then you would see who the real fighters are !

See! ..... WTF is that!?? ........ you are aware its bike racing aren't you? The goal of the "fight/battle" is to be in front ........ there are no points for best/most stylish maneuver. Perhaps they need to come up with a racing league with several bikes electronically inhibited to never get away from each other and the opponents get to the line 0.05 seconds in front of the other by ..... " a bit of biffo"

Oh wait here it is ......http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollerball_(1975_film)

battles

in any case nobody beats Stoner at .... " a bit of biffo" anyway

Oh and Spook ......... find me one rider who would rather be stuck in a place swapping exchange, than out in front and riding away with it. Find me one rider who thinks being mired in a a place swapping episode is harder to achieve than running away with the win ........

Pander · Dec 7, 2011

BarryMachine said:
See! ..... WTF is that!?? ........ you are aware its bike racing aren't you? The goal of the "fight/battle" is to be in front ........ there are no points for best/most stylish maneuver. Perhaps they need to come up with a racing league with several bikes electronically inhibited to never get away from each other and the opponents get to the line 0.05 seconds in front of the other by ..... " a bit of biffo"

Oh wait here it is ......http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollerball_(1975_film)

battles

in any case nobody beats Stoner at .... " a bit of biffo" anyway

Oh and Spook ......... find me one rider who would rather be stuck in a place swapping exchange, than out in front and riding away with it. Find me one rider who thinks being mired in a a place swapping episode is harder to achieve than running away with the win ........

And so you go off on another tangent, I ain't spending my time arguing with a coffin dodging arse licker over the internet, who instead of using words from his vocabulary, uses emoticons. I can't take you seriously.

Pander · Dec 7, 2011

BarryMachine said:
Oh and Spook ......... find me one rider who would rather be stuck in a place swapping exchange, than out in front and riding away with it. Find me one rider who thinks being mired in a a place swapping episode is harder to achieve than running away with the win ........

A certain Italian has said in the past he loves being challenged on the track. And for the record, Ive raced before, and I for one love a close race with someone, makes it so much more exciting.

BarryMachine · Dec 7, 2011

Pander said:
A certain Italian has said in the past he loves being challenged on the track. And for the record, Ive raced before, and I for one love a close race with someone, makes it so much more exciting.

........ ...... on all accounts

You'd rather be in a close race than win ? ........................ get real

Pander · Dec 7, 2011

........ on all accounts is all that comes out your mouth Barry. Find me the text where I have said I dont like winning? Exactly you can't. Its just an adreneline rush when theres someone close always on your tail or when your chasing someone and looking to put a move on them, at no point have I ever said its winning thats all that matters, your a deluded old ...., read the ....... text next time !

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