Audi's first error

 gui22a

3589431377104687

I'm wondering how much seconds each one of you stating Ducati/Corse is a skunk environment have ever walked inside one Ducati department.  

 

You are all guessers, none of you have ever worked at Ducati to be so assertive. Few of you have ever seen their GP bike from less than a few meters to talk anything. And, to end the story, none of you have 1 second of experience working as an engineer or leader in MotoGP, we are all sofa's spectators thinking we know a lot.

 

If Ducati is a pile of ...., so is Kawasaki and Suzuki, both of these japanese giants (specially the former) could not do any better than the messy bolognese firm in the last 40 years of GP racing. 

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You say you don't speak good English, but you alway manage to make your point rather succinctly.


Btw, you're right, with little exception we don't "know" for sure. Keep in mind, you must also put yourself in this category, and you, like me, have offered plenty of opinion regarding the sport. But I do think some who follow the sport as a spectator can be and are near the truth without actually ever ridden or engineered a MotoGP bike. Keep in mind, even those who have been in these positions are quite often at odds in their opinions. Stoner and Rossi disagreed, Burgess thought he was smarter than Prezi, Jumkie disagrees with Kropo 2% of the time.

Jumkie

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You say you don't speak good English, but you alway manage to make your point rather succinctly.


Btw, you're right, with little exception we don't "know" for sure. Keep in mind, you must also put yourself in this category, and you, like me, have offered plenty of opinion regarding the sport. But I do think some who follow the sport as a spectator can be and are near the truth without actually ever ridden or engineered a MotoGP bike. Keep in mind, even those who have been in these positions are quite often at odds in their opinions. Stoner and Rossi disagreed, Burgess thought he was smarter than Prezi, Jumkie disagrees with Kropo 2% of the time.

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If my english is crappy, I have to be as soon as possible. hahaha. btw, I thank you for that.


 


I think we all have rights to give our opinion, but never to extrapolate, starting theories based on nothing and a few minutes later accepting this theory as truly fact. Wtf?


 


Burgess is a mechanic, Rossi/Casey is a rider, and all is right as long as they give their opinion in what they know. From the moment Burgess/Rossi/Casey started to talk about a thing he never joined more than a observer or an user, they are nothing more than that, a spectator like us. Burgess possibly never draw a single bolt in a CAD, but judge himself capable of pointing every problem of the bike and how to solve it. Great. Then just take a sit there, do the math, design the parts and let us all be happy. And then, he says: "this is not my work, i'm not engineer". ahahahahaha. Cool... 


 


I tell to my friends how to complete solve poverty and social problems of my country, but I never will solve anything, and much probably if one day I sit in the president's chair, I'll suffer the same limitations of the current one. It's just easier to talk, I feel very capable when I'm talking. 


 


That is part of human nature, we all think we know enough when everything appears to make sense. But thank God science doesn't work that way.

Jumkie

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Mickey (as in that cute mouse you are fond of), I feel I may have been a bit too harsh on you. My apologies. Are you having fun today looking at all those cool colors in the Crayola box? At least you married a smart wife, as I recall she is a Nicky fan. Dude, you bring out the worst in me. But i'll resist, as I'm a patient man, so I'll explain it again. You know that cool little sheet your special ed teacher hands you that has a bunch of dots and numbers and tells you to connect the dots in order? Well this is a bit similar. You see, the point is that Honda get rules written in GP that have aided them, where as in Wsbk Ducati have enjoyed similar. The connecting the dots part is, that if Ducati are so unorganized and employ ....... (such as yourself) then why are they so successful in Wsbk while Honda suck? The answer is because the rules favor them in respective series...the answer is NOT because either manufacture is incompetent as some have argued. There is no "irony" to speak of because its the same reason why some riders and teams enjoy success in GP, that is because they enjoy special favor and partiality. .....(You're still confused, aren't you?)


Now run along...

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Remember what happened when Honda decided to build a twin and take advantage of the extra engine displacement allowed for twins? MotoGP has a set of rules just like WSBK, any factory can use the rules to their advantage just like Honda did when they went big twin to beat Ducati. Ducati doesn't have to be different, they chose to be different and the mono design was nothing but marketing for their future bikes. Welding frames together from tubes is much more expensive than casting a piece of al, that frame was nothing but a business decision to reduce the cost of building their bikes. No more army of skilled welders to pay, now it's just a guy pushing a button. After Ducati won their GP championship the Japanese changed their engines within the rules and started winning. The rules are clear and apply equally to all, Ducati chose to be different and now they're suffering for it. When they won their championship it wasn't because they were different it was because they took advantage of the rules and built a nasty engine. 

Jumkie

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Jumkie, on 21 Aug 2013 - 18:05, said:

Interesting. Krops have you visited Corse? I've had the pleasure of visiting the general plant, and I was actually surprised at how small the whole thing was. I visited in 04, so much has changed i'm assuming, though based on your comment, its probably still the same. The day I visited happened to be the same day Ruben Xaus was also taking the tour (a bit more exclusive to mine, but still, kinda cool as I've always liked the dude). They let us view Corse through a peep whole, then went on to describe a bit of the works and the relationship they have with Ducati. I got the feeling you had to be a 33rd degree Mason to ever have access in to that place. Just curious how you gathered this opinion.

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Have done the factory tour, same as you. Peeped through the peephole. Haven't visited Corse yet, though I visited YMR at Lesmo.


I have come to this opinion after talking to a number of people (non-Italians) who have had close dealings with Corse. They have been unambiguous in their description of the problem (and in one case, rather colorful).

mylexicon

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Yes. Honda vs. Yamaha is the storyline that keeps the sport alive. Yamaha and Suzuki had basically flubbed their 4-stroke GP machines. Ducati were making waves, but hardly competitive. HRC made a weak play to keep Rossi/Burgess, which allowed them to move to Yamaha or another manufacturer.

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I wouldn't argue with that. Although I might say that in Valentino's autobiography—which, to be fair, may make him out to be braver than he really was—he made it sound as thought he was dead set on leaving Honda. Sure, Honda didn't put up a fight, but would it have mattered? Would he have stayed if Honda threw a significant pile of money at him? I guess I'm not convinced that the outcome would've been any different.


 
Jumkie

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Oh, I see, they dominate because they "really want to" but don't really want to for Wsbk. So its just a matter of wanting it. Well then, to "want it" must mean 'rules manipulation' to get it! You probably don't see the "irony" in that statement, do you? Hahaha, amazing. Again, in order for them to be successful there must be an element of partiality in the series. That is exactly what I'm saying genius! AND...that is why inequalities in GP serve to 'facilitate' success for some (manufactures and riders) and hinder others.

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I think Honda's desire really does play a large factor in how successful they are in motorcycling—bar the first-generation RC212V. As has been brought up, Honda really wanted to stick it to Ducati in World Supers and developed the RC51. MInd you this came after churning out the homologation-special RC45 that only netted them one title.


 


That's not to say that the rules in MotoGP don't suit Honda now or that the rules in SBK haven't historically suited Ducati, but I will say that if Honda wants something bad enough, they usually get it. They were even successful as a full-on manufacturer in Formula 1 for a time, which is more than can be said for the likes of BMW and Toyota.

Kropotkin said:

Have done the factory tour, same as you. Peeped through the peephole. Haven't visited Corse yet, though I visited YMR at Lesmo.
I have come to this opinion after talking to a number of people (non-Italians) who have had close dealings with Corse. They have been unambiguous in their description of the problem (and in one case, rather colorful).

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Interesting. Actually I also heard similar description by a non-italian as well who works for Yamaha, and would have a credible opinion. Though, knowing what I know about human tendencies (call it my bias, of which we all suffer from) there was for me a caveat in listening to his opinion about certain things.

hawkdriver said:

Remember what happened when Honda decided to build a twin and take advantage of the extra engine displacement allowed for twins? MotoGP has a set of rules just like WSBK, any factory can use the rules to their advantage just like Honda did when they went big twin to beat Ducati. Ducati doesn't have to be different, they chose to be different and the mono design was nothing but marketing for their future bikes. Welding frames together from tubes is much more expensive than casting a piece of al, that frame was nothing but a business decision to reduce the cost of building their bikes. No more army of skilled welders to pay, now it's just a guy pushing a button. After Ducati won their GP championship the Japanese changed their engines within the rules and started winning. The rules are clear and apply equally to all, Ducati chose to be different and now they're suffering for it. When they won their championship it wasn't because they were different it was because they took advantage of the rules and built a nasty engine.

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Excellent points Hawk and Austin. Complex and multi facets to consider when attempting to understand the many layers of the sport. Good stuff gentz.

Kudos to the three of you for an interesting discussion


 


And Krop too for his limited (for known reasons) direction.

Austin

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I think Honda's desire really does play a large factor in how successful they are in motorcycling—bar the first-generation RC212V. As has been brought up, Honda really wanted to stick it to Ducati in World Supers and developed the RC51. MInd you this came after churning out the homologation-special RC45 that only netted them one title.

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...when we discovered that Foggy was indeed fallible and flawed, that the huge advantage conferred by riding a factory 916 Ducati was to a certain extent flattering to deceive. We also learnt that 'Lil John was in fact a god...albeit a very troubled and disturbed one.

Austin

3589571377116209

I wouldn't argue with that. Although I might say that in Valentino's autobiography—which, to be fair, may make him out to be braver than he really was—he made it sound as thought he was dead set on leaving Honda. Sure, Honda didn't put up a fight, but would it have mattered? Would he have stayed if Honda threw a significant pile of money at him? I guess I'm not convinced that the outcome would've been any different.


 


 


I think Honda's desire really does play a large factor in how successful they are in motorcycling—bar the first-generation RC212V. As has been brought up, Honda really wanted to stick it to Ducati in World Supers and developed the RC51. MInd you this came after churning out the homologation-special RC45 that only netted them one title.


 


That's not to say that the rules in MotoGP don't suit Honda now or that the rules in SBK haven't historically suited Ducati, but I will say that if Honda wants something bad enough, they usually get it. They were even successful as a full-on manufacturer in Formula 1 for a time, which is more than can be said for the likes of BMW and Toyota.

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Are you considering the Brawn GP as well?

gui22a

3589431377104687

I'm wondering how much seconds each one of you stating Ducati/Corse is a skunk environment have ever walked inside one Ducati department.  


 


You are all guessers, none of you have ever worked at Ducati to be so assertive. Few of you have ever seen their GP bike from less than a few meters to talk anything. And, to end the story, none of you have 1 second of experience working as an engineer or leader in MotoGP, we are all sofa's spectators thinking we know a lot.


 


If Ducati is a pile of ...., so is Kawasaki and Suzuki, both of these japanese giants (specially the former) could not do any better than the messy bolognese firm in the last 40 years of GP racing. 

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Gui22a, it may be lost in translation, but Skunkworks is actually a compliment. It was where Lockheed Martin developed the SR-71.


 


 


And please read some history before you assert that Suzuki and Kawasaki haven't done anything in GPs in the last 40 years. FFS.

Kropotkin

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Have done the factory tour, same as you. Peeped through the peephole. Haven't visited Corse yet, though I visited YMR at Lesmo.


I have come to this opinion after talking to a number of people (non-Italians) who have had close dealings with Corse. They have been unambiguous in their description of the problem (and in one case, rather colorful).

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Well, it was many moons ago, but Ducati (before there was a Corse) reportedly had to send Taglioni on a 'business mission' to Brazil or something, to allow Bordi the space to develop the 4-valve head. So your 'hierachical' and 'static' description rings true.

J4rn0

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LOL, Ducati Corse certainly can never be HRC but to see it described as a chaotic half-amateurish organization, by people who don't have the least idea how it actually operates, is genuinely entertaining. Especially when you consider that Honda first hired Corse's manager, then an entire team of those chaotic enthusiasts, along with Casey Stoner, to finally win a title with their bike (that probably had been the best bike for years).  Now that same team of ex-Ducatisti is backing Marquez' efforts to become a rookie champion. 


<span style="font-size:14px;At least we could consider Ducati Corse a good school!

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What?


 


Lex described it as a Skunkworks (and it bears repeating that this is a compliment) and perhaps run by a mad professor type, and you reinterpret this as 'chaotic half-amateurish'??


I made mention of .... looking wiring looms, I also gave the perfectly justifiable reasons behind those .... looking looms. I mentioned that the detail design is bad. A mere look at the routing of hoses, cables and wiring will confirm this.


None of this says Amateurish. I'll repeat, given their time and resources, they concentrate on the important stuff. Not making the bike look production-ready a la Honda.


 


And to repeat what Krop alluded, you fail to make the distinction between the race team and the Corse back in the suburbs of Bologna.

Jumkie

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Oh, I see, they dominate because they "really want to" but don't really want to for Wsbk. So its just a matter of wanting it. Well then, to "want it" must mean 'rules manipulation' to get it! You probably don't see the "irony" in that statement, do you? Hahaha, amazing. Again, in order for them to be successful there must be an element of partiality in the series. That is exactly what I'm saying genius! AND...that is why inequalities in GP serve to 'facilitate' success for some (manufactures and riders) and hinder others.

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Mostly agree with your point, but if Honda really did care about winning WSBK there would be a HRC RC213V production racer on the grid. If they can do a long season of MotoGP on five engines, that thing must nearly be ready for headlights and mirrors.

Dr No

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What?


 


Lex described it as a Skunkworks (and it bears repeating that this is a compliment) and perhaps run by a mad professor type, and you reinterpret this as 'chaotic half-amateurish'??


I made mention of .... looking wiring looms, I also gave the perfectly justifiable reasons behind those .... looking looms. I mentioned that the detail design is bad. A mere look at the routing of hoses, cables and wiring will confirm this.


None of this says Amateurish. I'll repeat, given their time and resources, they concentrate on the important stuff. Not making the bike look production-ready a la Honda.


 


And to repeat what Krop alluded, you fail to make the distinction between the race team and the Corse back in the suburbs of Bologna.

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Other people who have seen the bikes close up have also  said they were fairly artisanal in appearance, in 2007 and 2008 anyway, in terms of the detail work, although I think this was in reference to a bike at a show. Certainly one thing Stoner did actually complain about concerning the trellis frame bike was that even his number 1 and number 2 race bikes weren't the same and performed differently.

Dr No

3589711377127022

Gui22a, it may be lost in translation, but Skunkworks is actually a compliment. It was where Lockheed Martin developed the SR-71.


 


 


And please read some history before you assert that Suzuki and Kawasaki haven't done anything in GPs in the last 40 years. FFS.

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Sure, Suzuki have won 6 championships, including 4 of the first 8 "modern era" championships by my (previous) count, but even with that tradition have only won 2 in the last 30 years of basic honda/yamaha duopoly, which rather proves Gui22a's point imo.


 


I still think Ducati's and hence Prezi's achievement in winning even one championship was considerable. Sure they took advantage of the rules as hawkdriver says, but they were rules designed to suit someone else, and have been changed further to suit those someone elses even more, to the extent that much bigger concerns such as BMW won't even enter, and Suzuki and Kawasaki left.


 


There is a bloke elsewhere who criticises Stoner  trenchantly particularly in regard to the carbon fibre chassis. One thing which probably did result was a chassis which couldn't be modified in any way, so if the first design in a given year was not ideal this was problematic, compounded by the engine rule since all of the 6 engines they were allowed had perforce to be part of a chassis.

Dr No

3589711377127022

Gui22a, it may be lost in translation, but Skunkworks is actually a compliment. It was where Lockheed Martin developed the SR-71.


 


 


And please read some history before you assert that Suzuki and Kawasaki haven't done anything in GPs in the last 40 years. FFS.

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Mistranslation, sorry.


 


About the rest, I meant Suzuki + Kawasaki. Suzuki won some titles here and there, Kawasaki won nothing. In the last 30 years Suzuki won 2 titles, Ducati 1, and Kawasaki 0.


 


In 37 years of GP Suzuki claimed 6 titles, 0.16 titles per year. 


In 10 years of GP Ducati claimed 1 title, 0.10 titles per year.


 


Is this much better than Ducati? No.


 


Does it make both Kawasaki and Suzuki amateurs, disorganized or incompetents, as much as Ducati? I don't think so. 

Gui22a, I agree.


 


It was actually me who raised the point of Suzuki and Kawasaki being worse, yet we don't have any target of scorn, so they escape much of the criticism and scrutiny that Ducati undergoes.


 


Again, please tell us where Ducati was called Chaotic, Disorganised or Amateurish. I might be wrong, but those words seem to be an interpretation from those defending the company.

Dr No

3589751377128278

Lex described it as a Skunkworks (and it bears repeating that this is a compliment)

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Yes. Compliment. Skunkworks implies the best of the best; however, it also insinuates that more stuff blows up than flies b/c that's the nature of true experimentation. Maybe that's the best way to describe it. The Japanese are prototyping. Ducati is buildng experimental bikes. When a GP7 or a SR-71 is built, people rejoice. When nothing is working, people are disgraced and fired acrimoniously for wasting time, money, and talent. The rules might be forcing Ducati to shake things up.

HEISMAN

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Are you considering the Brawn GP as well?

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I hadn't as I don't know how many guys Ross Brawn brought with him. But I recall Honda having begun development of the 2009 cars early as it was pretty evident early on that the 2008 car wasn't all that strong. I suppose you could give partial credit to Honda, but I think a vague definition of what a double diffuser is and Brawn's determination to win at all costs—spirit of the rules be damned—probably played a bigger role.


In that line of thinking, perhaps you could argue that Honda's most successful season in F1 should be credited to BAR, who'd spent the previous year working only to be bought out near the end of the season. Honda had the blueprint, they just needed to follow the instructions.