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LOL, Ducati Corse certainly can never be HRC but to see it described as a chaotic half-amateurish organization, by people who don't have the least idea how it actually operates, is genuinely entertaining. Especially when you consider that Honda first hired Corse's manager, then an entire team of those chaotic enthusiasts, along with Casey Stoner, to finally win a title with their bike (that probably had been the best bike for years). Now that same team of ex-Ducatisti is backing Marquez' efforts to become a rookie champion.
<span style="font-size:14px;At least we could consider Ducati Corse a good school!
<span style="font-size:14px;At least we could consider Ducati Corse a good school!
I think they are going to have to get rid of some key people or move them aside and bring in some people who want to work in a different way,,,,,,,,,it is not going to be a click here or there, though, to fix that bike. It needs a redesign. Kenny Roberts snr
To me, the fix at Ducati is not a matter of throwing out riders and screwing another one in. There are exceptions to everything and at Ducati that rider was Casey Stoner, whom I put in the same bracket as Freddie Spencer, who could adapt to any motorcycle.,,,,,,,The situation is simple, if you keep working on a problem and don't find the solution then you are not working on the real cause of the problem. My philosophy is its easier to develop a better chassis with an engine that is under powered rather than one with enormous power. There is nothing wrong with the engine layout as a 90 degree V, just like the Honda, but clearly there is a lot to be done to make it more drivable. Jerry Burgess
To me, the fix at Ducati is not a matter of throwing out riders and screwing another one in. There are exceptions to everything and at Ducati that rider was Casey Stoner, whom I put in the same bracket as Freddie Spencer, who could adapt to any motorcycle.,,,,,,,The situation is simple, if you keep working on a problem and don't find the solution then you are not working on the real cause of the problem. My philosophy is its easier to develop a better chassis with an engine that is under powered rather than one with enormous power. There is nothing wrong with the engine layout as a 90 degree V, just like the Honda, but clearly there is a lot to be done to make it more drivable. Jerry Burgess
Arrabbiata1
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thedeal
Did you go on to read the quotes from Casey himself? He very magnanimously pointed out that the bike is completely different now to the one that he rode so to enable comparison is pointless. However he maintains that the bike he handed over to Rossi he could have continued to win on particularly given the absurd levels of support availed to Valentino when he arrived. He was also quoted as saying that the front end is just part of the problem and to reduce the problems with the machine solely to this is misleading. In addition to this in response to all the speculation that Cal's riding style could suit the Ducati he was quick to point out that it is more the mindset of the rider and whether you are able to prepared to attack and push the bike to its limit. It would seem that being able to seek out and exploit that margin as he and Spencer could - and now Marquez appears to be able to do, is a very rare commodity.
Intersting to note both Jorge and Dani's comments after Indy that Marquez is sailing very close to the wind. Dani in particular stated that the difference between he and Marc is that the latter is riding completely on the limit with no margin for error. Dani believes that in the interest of his Championship to try to follow involves too great a risk of crashing out - a sentiment echoed by Jorge. Lorenzo has all but intimated that it's only a matter of time before Marquez has an accident. He also stated that he encountered the worst lack of rear end grip of his entire career in the final four laps of the race.
Did you go on to read the quotes from Casey himself? He very magnanimously pointed out that the bike is completely different now to the one that he rode so to enable comparison is pointless. However he maintains that the bike he handed over to Rossi he could have continued to win on particularly given the absurd levels of support availed to Valentino when he arrived. He was also quoted as saying that the front end is just part of the problem and to reduce the problems with the machine solely to this is misleading. In addition to this in response to all the speculation that Cal's riding style could suit the Ducati he was quick to point out that it is more the mindset of the rider and whether you are able to prepared to attack and push the bike to its limit. It would seem that being able to seek out and exploit that margin as he and Spencer could - and now Marquez appears to be able to do, is a very rare commodity.
Intersting to note both Jorge and Dani's comments after Indy that Marquez is sailing very close to the wind. Dani in particular stated that the difference between he and Marc is that the latter is riding completely on the limit with no margin for error. Dani believes that in the interest of his Championship to try to follow involves too great a risk of crashing out - a sentiment echoed by Jorge. Lorenzo has all but intimated that it's only a matter of time before Marquez has an accident. He also stated that he encountered the worst lack of rear end grip of his entire career in the final four laps of the race.
J4rn0
Ducati Corse itself was (and probably still is) fairly small as I understand it, yet produced a competitive bike most years in the 990 formula, and for the first 3 years of the 800 formula, and still a bike capable of race wins even in the 4th year of the 800 formula in 2010 in the face of increasingly intricate technology favouring the "big battalions" of engineers and computer techs.
Ducati itself, like Ferrari, has a great engineering tradition, particularly in regard to their actual engines over the years, but could not even enter premier class racing until the 4 stroke formula to which their traditional engine could be adapted. They have never been in a position to produce an entirely new engine fairly unrelated to their other production engines to suit a WSBK formula as Honda once did, and if their engine configuration needs to be changed that is an undertaking hitherto anyway likely to require years rather than months. Valentino however made quite a few comments about the power delivery characteristics, something that perhaps could be addressed more quickly.
3589161377086056
LOL, Ducati Corse certainly can never be HRC but to see it described as a chaotic half-amateurish organization, by people who don't have the least idea how it actually operates, is genuinely entertaining. Especially when you consider that Honda first hired Corse's manager, then an entire team of those chaotic enthusiasts, along with Casey Stoner, to finally win a title with their bike (that probably had been the best bike for years). Now that same team of ex-Ducatisti is backing Marquez' efforts to become a rookie champion.
<span style="font-size:14px;At least we could consider Ducati Corse a good school!
Ducati Corse itself was (and probably still is) fairly small as I understand it, yet produced a competitive bike most years in the 990 formula, and for the first 3 years of the 800 formula, and still a bike capable of race wins even in the 4th year of the 800 formula in 2010 in the face of increasingly intricate technology favouring the "big battalions" of engineers and computer techs.
Ducati itself, like Ferrari, has a great engineering tradition, particularly in regard to their actual engines over the years, but could not even enter premier class racing until the 4 stroke formula to which their traditional engine could be adapted. They have never been in a position to produce an entirely new engine fairly unrelated to their other production engines to suit a WSBK formula as Honda once did, and if their engine configuration needs to be changed that is an undertaking hitherto anyway likely to require years rather than months. Valentino however made quite a few comments about the power delivery characteristics, something that perhaps could be addressed more quickly.
Arrabbiata1
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thedeal
Or rather the problems Casey masked and rode around!
Or rather the problems Casey masked and rode around!
I think Stoner is a liar or he, Hayden and Rossi are ........ Especially Rossi. U make 15m a year and you can't pay for a few parts to make the bike better? If preziosi had such good ideas, how much could new cases and better autoclaves cost?
Stoner is a known liar and Nicky ain't no ....., so I'm guessing Preziosi wasn't a genius
Stoner is a known liar and Nicky ain't no ....., so I'm guessing Preziosi wasn't a genius
J4rn0
The problem wasn't in the race team, it was (and is) in Bologna. Working practices there are hopelessly hierarchical and static.3589161377086056
LOL, Ducati Corse certainly can never be HRC but to see it described as a chaotic half-amateurish organization, by people who don't have the least idea how it actually operates, is genuinely entertaining. Especially when you consider that Honda first hired Corse's manager, then an entire team of those chaotic enthusiasts, along with Casey Stoner, to finally win a title with their bike (that probably had been the best bike for years). Now that same team of ex-Ducatisti is backing Marquez' efforts to become a rookie champion.
<span style="font-size:14px;At least we could consider Ducati Corse a good school!
Austin
Yes. Honda vs. Yamaha is the storyline that keeps the sport alive. Yamaha and Suzuki had basically flubbed their 4-stroke GP machines. Ducati were making waves, but hardly competitive. HRC made a weak play to keep Rossi/Burgess, which allowed them to move to Yamaha or another manufacturer.
Yes. Honda vs. Yamaha is the storyline that keeps the sport alive. Yamaha and Suzuki had basically flubbed their 4-stroke GP machines. Ducati were making waves, but hardly competitive. HRC made a weak play to keep Rossi/Burgess, which allowed them to move to Yamaha or another manufacturer.
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Mick D
Mickey (as in that cute mouse you are fond of), I feel I may have been a bit too harsh on you. My apologies. Are you having fun today looking at all those cool colors in the Crayola box? At least you married a smart wife, as I recall she is a Nicky fan. Dude, you bring out the worst in me. But i'll resist, as I'm a patient man, so I'll explain it again. You know that cool little sheet your special ed teacher hands you that has a bunch of dots and numbers and tells you to connect the dots in order? Well this is a bit similar. You see, the point is that Honda get rules written in GP that have aided them, where as in Wsbk Ducati have enjoyed similar. The connecting the dots part is, that if Ducati are so unorganized and employ ....... (such as yourself) then why are they so successful in Wsbk while Honda suck? The answer is because the rules favor them in respective series...the answer is NOT because either manufacture is incompetent as some have argued. There is no "irony" to speak of because its the same reason why some riders and teams enjoy success in GP, that is because they enjoy special favor and partiality. .....(You're still confused, aren't you?)
Now run along...
Mickey (as in that cute mouse you are fond of), I feel I may have been a bit too harsh on you. My apologies. Are you having fun today looking at all those cool colors in the Crayola box? At least you married a smart wife, as I recall she is a Nicky fan.
Dude, you bring out the worst in me. But i'll resist, as I'm a patient man, so I'll explain it again. You know that cool little sheet your special ed teacher hands you that has a bunch of dots and numbers and tells you to connect the dots in order? Well this is a bit similar. You see, the point is that Honda get rules written in GP that have aided them, where as in Wsbk Ducati have enjoyed similar. The connecting the dots part is, that if Ducati are so unorganized and employ ....... (such as yourself) then why are they so successful in Wsbk while Honda suck? The answer is because the rules favor them in respective series...the answer is NOT because either manufacture is incompetent as some have argued. There is no "irony" to speak of because its the same reason why some riders and teams enjoy success in GP, that is because they enjoy special favor and partiality. .....(You're still confused, aren't you?) Now run along...
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Kropotkin
Well, "hierarchical and static" is probably excessive but describes the type of organization at Borgo Panigale much better than "chaotic".
That hierarchical and static organization didn't prevent decades of successes in manufacturing and racing bikes though, so it will not be enough to modernize and flatten the pyramid a bit, to solve all problems.
Well, "hierarchical and static" is probably excessive but describes the type of organization at Borgo Panigale much better than "chaotic".
That hierarchical and static organization didn't prevent decades of successes in manufacturing and racing bikes though, so it will not be enough to modernize and flatten the pyramid a bit, to solve all problems.
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Kropotkin
Interesting. Krops have you visited Corse? I've had the pleasure of visiting the general plant, and I was actually surprised at how small the whole thing was. I visited in 04, so much has changed i'm assuming, though based on your comment, its probably still the same. The day I visited happened to be the same day Ruben Xaus was also taking the tour (a bit more exclusive to mine, but still, kinda cool as I've always liked the dude). They let us view Corse through a peep whole, then went on to describe a bit of the works and the relationship they have with Ducati. I got the feeling you had to be a 33rd degree Mason to ever have access in to that place. Just curious how you gathered this opinion.
Btw, when I log on to my computer, I have it set to open the Apple page.
http://www.apple.com/startpage/
I was curious to see a feature titled: Ducati hit the road full throttle with iPad
I thought was interesting.
http://images.apple.com/ipad/business/profiles/ducati/#video-ducati
Pretty cool for a manufacture still stuck in its old ways, eh. At least they are finding a way to get their product out there. Though you must admit, Nicky's smiling face might have sold a bit more than that cool device.
Interesting. Krops have you visited Corse? I've had the pleasure of visiting the general plant, and I was actually surprised at how small the whole thing was. I visited in 04, so much has changed i'm assuming, though based on your comment, its probably still the same. The day I visited happened to be the same day Ruben Xaus was also taking the tour (a bit more exclusive to mine, but still, kinda cool as I've always liked the dude). They let us view Corse through a peep whole, then went on to describe a bit of the works and the relationship they have with Ducati. I got the feeling you had to be a 33rd degree Mason to ever have access in to that place. Just curious how you gathered this opinion.
Btw, when I log on to my computer, I have it set to open the Apple page.
http://www.apple.com/startpage/
I was curious to see a feature titled: Ducati hit the road full throttle with iPad
I thought was interesting.
http://images.apple.com/ipad/business/profiles/ducati/#video-ducati
Pretty cool for a manufacture still stuck in its old ways, eh. At least they are finding a way to get their product out there. Though you must admit, Nicky's smiling face might have sold a bit more than that cool device.
J4rn0
Who accused Corse of being an amateur outfit? Everything I've ever heard about Corse is that it is a true skunk works operation with a competitive advantage in prototyping. Supposedly, Corse is the kind of prototyping facility where nearly every bike is a one-off, and they don't worry about building the same thing twice. The reports about Ducati's fit and finish sound congruous with the skunk works format, and I can't imagine the development pace as being anything other than "chaotic".
When series talk about cost reduction, they almost always attempt to limit the number of machine variants permitted per season. The F1 RRA agreement between the constructors, for instance, limits the number of chassis, aero, and bodywork homologations per season. F1 have had a perpetual engine freeze for several seasons, as well. MotoGP is almost certainly headed down the same road. We know an engine freeze will be implemented next season. The freeze will basically limit engine designs to 1 per season. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that MotoGP may already have other restrictions on frame and swingarm variants.
This kind of arrangment more closely mimics the production market. The manufacturers develop, finalize designs, and then produce a small series production. However, this arrangement is not friendly to a skunk works facility.
Perhaps this is the 2% Ducati is missing?
3589161377086056
LOL, Ducati Corse certainly can never be HRC but to see it described as a chaotic half-amateurish organization, by people who don't have the least idea how it actually operates, is genuinely entertaining. Especially when you consider that Honda first hired Corse's manager, then an entire team of those chaotic enthusiasts, along with Casey Stoner, to finally win a title with their bike (that probably had been the best bike for years). Now that same team of ex-Ducatisti is backing Marquez' efforts to become a rookie champion.
<span style="font-size:14px;At least we could consider Ducati Corse a good school!
Who accused Corse of being an amateur outfit? Everything I've ever heard about Corse is that it is a true skunk works operation with a competitive advantage in prototyping. Supposedly, Corse is the kind of prototyping facility where nearly every bike is a one-off, and they don't worry about building the same thing twice. The reports about Ducati's fit and finish sound congruous with the skunk works format, and I can't imagine the development pace as being anything other than "chaotic".
When series talk about cost reduction, they almost always attempt to limit the number of machine variants permitted per season. The F1 RRA agreement between the constructors, for instance, limits the number of chassis, aero, and bodywork homologations per season. F1 have had a perpetual engine freeze for several seasons, as well. MotoGP is almost certainly headed down the same road. We know an engine freeze will be implemented next season. The freeze will basically limit engine designs to 1 per season. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that MotoGP may already have other restrictions on frame and swingarm variants.
This kind of arrangment more closely mimics the production market. The manufacturers develop, finalize designs, and then produce a small series production. However, this arrangement is not friendly to a skunk works facility.
Perhaps this is the 2% Ducati is missing?
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Jumkie
Jumkie
The connecting the dots part is that Honda WSBK means relatively little to HRC/HondaCorp and their effort reflects it - they could dominate SBK if they really wanted to - Ducati and MGP..., not so much. The situational irony is that you use 'rules manipulation' to confirm your belief that Ducati is not incompetent and is an semi-equal-ability manufacturer, while at the same time using 'rules manipulation' to confirm your belief that, hmmm, certain INequalities exist in MGP... Nevermind, why do I bother!
Jumkie
The connecting the dots part is that Honda WSBK means relatively little to HRC/HondaCorp and their effort reflects it - they could dominate SBK if they really wanted to - Ducati and MGP..., not so much. The situational irony is that you use 'rules manipulation' to confirm your belief that Ducati is not incompetent and is an semi-equal-ability manufacturer, while at the same time using 'rules manipulation' to confirm your belief that, hmmm, certain INequalities exist in MGP... Nevermind, why do I bother!
I'm wondering how much seconds each one of you stating Ducati/Corse is a skunk environment have ever walked inside one Ducati department.
You are all guessers, none of you have ever worked at Ducati to be so assertive. Few of you have ever seen their GP bike from less than a few meters to talk anything. And, to end the story, none of you have 1 second of experience working as an engineer or leader in MotoGP, we are all sofa's spectators thinking we know a lot.
If Ducati is a pile of ...., so is Kawasaki and Suzuki, both of these japanese giants (specially the former) could not do any better than the messy bolognese firm in the last 40 years of GP racing.
You are all guessers, none of you have ever worked at Ducati to be so assertive. Few of you have ever seen their GP bike from less than a few meters to talk anything. And, to end the story, none of you have 1 second of experience working as an engineer or leader in MotoGP, we are all sofa's spectators thinking we know a lot.
If Ducati is a pile of ...., so is Kawasaki and Suzuki, both of these japanese giants (specially the former) could not do any better than the messy bolognese firm in the last 40 years of GP racing.
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Mick D
Oh, I see, they dominate because they "really want to" but don't really want to for Wsbk. So its just a matter of wanting it. Well then, to "want it" must mean 'rules manipulation' to get it! You probably don't see the "irony" in that statement, do you? Hahaha, amazing. Again, in order for them to be successful there must be an element of partiality in the series. That is exactly what I'm saying genius! AND...that is why inequalities in GP serve to 'facilitate' success for some (manufactures and riders) and hinder others.
Oh, I see, they dominate because they "really want to" but don't really want to for Wsbk. So its just a matter of wanting it. Well then, to "want it" must mean 'rules manipulation' to get it! You probably don't see the "irony" in that statement, do you? Hahaha, amazing. Again, in order for them to be successful there must be an element of partiality in the series. That is exactly what I'm saying genius! AND...that is why inequalities in GP serve to 'facilitate' success for some (manufactures and riders) and hinder others.
