Audi's first error

Jumkie

3587881377015512

I agree with most u are saying Gui, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn gamesmanship is played out behind scenes for various reasons. Consider this my bias.....and what I 'know' of the human world. Im not completely buying Honda being concerned about Ducati, but I wouldnt dispel it either. The motoracing community is a unique and niche bunch tied togethet by a strong passion for the sport. No telling what unconventional and unintuitive .... they're capable of. My great pleasure however is that Krops can suggest HRC & Yam might have title rigged, but when I suggest Marc was on a cheater bike (with other paddock insiders, riders, and mags suggesting same...not to mention the peculiar video evidence to suggest an oulier) im suddenly the tin foil moon denier type. Haha.

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haha that's cool, I love some conspiracies too. It would be great if Honda help Ducati, specially because they stole the bolognese talents, and, how to not say, Honda woke up and developed the most advanced TC thanks to Ducati showing how to use electronics in racing back in 2007 (how not to remember Rossi crying about. Not to mention screamer and 90 degrees V engines, which Honda adopted since then, and the use of a more advanced valve system to rev higher and get more ponies). The italians choke the world and set a new standard in MotoGP technologies. It's important to say it's was not Honda nor Yamaha, both was dulling and sleeping until 2008. I get very angry when I heard it was all Stoner at 2007. No, it wasn't only Stoner. Ducati indeed beat the giants in every aspect and changed MotoGP.


 


Ducati (actually Preziosi) is a watershed in MotoGP, were very important for the series and changed it forever. 


 


But who cares? Nobody cares, unfortunately. People prefer to believe in conspiracy theories instead of facts, and then, we are losing the most important thing MotoGP had in the past 5 or 6 years: a tiny fearless company full of passion and energy, which drove the giants and the series to a complete new standard. 

Ducati, Honda and Yamaha remember me much of a history about Xerox PARC, Microsoft and a guy called Steve Jobs.

Kropotkin

3587911377016423

HRC & Yamaha don't have the title rigged. They don't rig races. They rig the series, by making the rules, and making it too expensive for others to compete. Rigging races is too difficult. Rigging race series is much better, especially if you control the rules.


And Marquez didn't have a cheater bike. It was completely legal. If you watch MotoGP at all, you will notice Marquez doing quite well on the factory Honda. In fact, he's in front of his teammate, who has been there for a while. I suspect he may be quite the talent.

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Yeah well when you have the rules changed in favor of your team, that is a sideways form of cheating.  The 800cc bikes, then the rookie rule, lol.  Yeah MM is good, but Dorkna wants Spanish dominance and wants a Spanish Rossi somehow.  It's just racist really, but who will say anything? 

gui22a

3587941377017248

haha that's cool, I love some conspiracies too. It would be great if Honda help Ducati, specially because they stole the bolognese talents, and, how to not say, Honda woke up and developed the most advanced TC thanks to Ducati showing how to use electronics in racing back in 2007 (how not to remember Rossi crying about. Not to mention screamer and 90 degrees V engines, which Honda adopted since then, and the use of a more advanced valve system to rev higher and get more ponies). The italians choke the world and set a new standard in MotoGP technologies. It's important to say it's was not Honda nor Yamaha, both was dulling and sleeping until 2008. I get very angry when I heard it was all Stoner at 2007. No, it wasn't only Stoner. Ducati indeed beat the giants in every aspect and changed MotoGP.


 


Ducati (actually Preziosi) is a watershed in MotoGP, were very important for the series and changed it forever. 


 


But who cares? Nobody cares, unfortunately. People prefer to believe in conspiracy theories instead of facts, and then, we are losing the most important thing MotoGP had in the past 5 or 6 years: a tiny fearless company full of passion and energy, which drove the giants and the series to a complete new standard. 

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Complete rubbish, Preziosi the genius and game changer you say he is built a bike that only one person could ride, jesus Marco was even sent to a shrink. That is a genius. if my smileys worked there would be a hundred LOLs.

And before we get all the posts about there tyres being nicked, all that did was show the world how flawed the design was.

gui22a

3587941377017248

haha that's cool, I love some conspiracies too. It would be great if Honda help Ducati, specially because they stole the bolognese talents, and, how to not say, Honda woke up and developed the most advanced TC thanks to Ducati showing how to use electronics in racing back in 2007 (how not to remember Rossi crying about. Not to mention screamer and 90 degrees V engines, which Honda adopted since then, and the use of a more advanced valve system to rev higher and get more ponies). The italians choke the world and set a new standard in MotoGP technologies. It's important to say it's was not Honda nor Yamaha, both was dulling and sleeping until 2008. I get very angry when I heard it was all Stoner at 2007. No, it wasn't only Stoner. Ducati indeed beat the giants in every aspect and changed MotoGP.

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Absolute rubbish! There is pretty much zero facts to your above claims.

Kropotkin

3587591376997217

When Neil Spalding got his spy shot of the Honda, confirming it was a 90 degree V4, there were many who believed that HRC did so on purpose, to send a message to Ducati that the engine angle wasn't the problem, and to look elsewhere for solutions. There is good reason to believe this is true. Honda DO NOT allow their bikes to be photographed, always cover everything, and either have the garage door shut or modesty screens up. They do not leave bikes unattended. Yet an RC213V was left in an empty garage, with the fairings off, with the garage doors up, where a photographer who was known for his attention to technical details and his tendency to take close up, detailed shots of motorcycles was known to be roaming with his camera.


Honda love to win, but they want to have someone to beat, otherwise the victory is meaningless. They may stack the deck in their favor, but only a little, not blatantly.

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This is very true. Many years ago there was a magazine "VELOCITY - JOURNAL OF THE HONDA - ACURA CLUB" that was all about every division of Honda. I remember reading  an article about the great lengths Honda would go to concealing projects under development. From testing in the dead of night, middle of the desert & going to remote regions to carry out R&D test.  

 

gui22a

3587941377017248

Honda woke up and developed the most advanced TC thanks to Ducati showing how to use electronics in racing back in 2007

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Ducati's electronic advantage in 2007 was not TC, but fuel computing. You may remember that the MSMA floated a few allegations about the possibility of cheating b/c the Ducati's performance was so high. You may also remember the stories about Yamaha's absurdly poor fuel-computer which left 1L of fuel in the tank at Qatar 2007.


 


When HRC hired Gabbarini et al, they acquired a good working knowledge of the procedures for mapping fuel, imo, and that's what started the HRC dominance we've witnessed since 2011. Since Marquez has a similar skill set to Stoner, imo, HRC's competitive advantage has continued, now that they've sorted the chassis for the new tires.

thedeal

3588011377019068

Complete rubbish, Preziosi the genius and game changer you say he is built a bike that only one person could ride, jesus Marco was even sent to a shrink. That is a genius. if my smileys worked there would be a hundred LOLs.

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That's the official story, but that's not what really happened, imo.


 


Ducati won in their first season. After switching to Bridgestone, they went through a development stage, but they got back to the winners circle. Many people were able to ride their bikes, and Loris had a respectable season in 2007. Preziosi was a genius of sorts, and his bikes were very competitive.


 


The problems started in 2008 b/c the control tire (for all intents and purposes) started in 2008 to control corner entry speed. That's why Ducati turned the bike upside-down and inside-out in 2008, and that's why they started playing around with carbon fiber monocoque and swingarm. The 2008 control tire is why Suzuki became uncompetitive, and it's why Kawasaki struggled and withdrew in fury at the end of the 2008 season, despite their contractual obligation to MotoGP. Since Bridgestone's front tire would have been neutralized, the tire regulations of 2008 could have been the reason Bridgestone agreed to work with Rossi.


 


Melandri hated the new tires, and he said it felt like he was always riding in the wet. He never figured the tires out, even after returning to Honda. Melandri's fall from grace was not caused by Preziosi, though Preziosi was unable to fix the GP's problems. Now, he's at home.


 


Imo, tires are the reason Stoner quit as well. He won in 2007. The GPC changed the tires. He won in 2011. The GPC changed the tires. He decided to retire.

mylexicon

3588151377023476

Ducati's electronic advantage in 2007 was not TC, but fuel computing. You may remember that the MSMA floated a few allegations about the possibility of cheating b/c the Ducati's performance was so high. You may also remember the stories about Yamaha's absurdly poor fuel-computer which left 1L of fuel in the tank at Qatar 2007.


 


When HRC hired Gabbarini et al, they acquired a good working knowledge of the procedures for mapping fuel, imo, and that's what started the HRC dominance we've witnessed since 2011. Since Marquez has a similar skill set to Stoner, imo, HRC's competitive advantage has continued, now that they've sorted the chassis for the new tires.

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Good point recalled, fuel computing was way more important, but Ducati's TC in 2007 was very good developed compared to opponents and clearly Honda observed this. 


 


For those who attribute Ducati's 2007 success only to Casey, I won't lose time chatting about this, it's like fighting the facts. Desmosedici GP6 was in good way to victory (Capirossi was ledding the championship before Barcelona accident and was in his way to clinch the titlle wasn't the accident), Desmosedici GP7 was the best bike on the grid, by far. Even Barros in Pramac took a podium at Mugello, Capirossi won a race and got several podiums, Pramac riders got good results also. It's was the best bike + tire combination, no matter who rode it. Fact.


 


For the next year, tire rule changed and so all the good work started to be destroyed, declining year after year, and a lot of Ducati talents started to jump the ship. 


 


So, rubbish is my ....

mylexicon

3588151377023476

When HRC hired Gabbarini et al, they acquired a good working knowledge of the procedures for mapping fuel, imo, and that's what started the HRC dominance we've witnessed since 2011. Since Marquez has a similar skill set to Stoner, imo, HRC's competitive advantage has continued, now that they've sorted the chassis for the new tires.

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Whilst I agree with your assessment of the fuel mapping, HRC's dominance can, in my opinion, but traced back to two key developments. One was poaching Andrea Zugna, Cristian Battaglia and Carlo Luzzi from Yamaha in 2009. They were the electronics gurus who had helped to make the Yamaha a winning package through its drivability. The other was the arrival of Nakamoto, and his push to get HRC engineers to listen to their riders, and especially to Pedrosa. Nakamoto is one of the most talented men in the paddock, on many fronts, and it was he who got HRC to work on the input from Pedrosa, and turned the Honda round from a right dog in 2009 to a bike that handled well by about mid-2010. The arrival of Gabarrini just accelerated a development which was, in my opinion, already well underway. I think Pedrosa deserves a little more credit for helping to develop the Honda, and Nakamoto, for turning HRC around and giving it a more human face.

gui22a

3588291377028150

Good point recalled, fuel computing was way more important, but Ducati's TC in 2007 was very good developed compared to opponents and clearly Honda observed this. 


 


For those who attribute Ducati's 2007 success only to Casey, I won't lose time chatting about this, it's like fighting the facts. Desmosedici GP6 was in good way to victory (Capirossi was ledding the championship before Barcelona accident and was in his way to clinch the titlle wasn't the accident), Desmosedici GP7 was the best bike on the grid, by far. Even Barros in Pramac took a podium at Mugello, Capirossi won a race and got several podiums, Pramac riders got good results also. It's was the best bike + tire combination, no matter who rode it. Fact.


 


For the next year, tire rule changed and so all the good work started to be destroyed, declining year after year, and a lot of Ducati talents started to jump the ship. 


 


So, rubbish is my ....

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You are not getting it, Capirossi had three wins the year before and had been competitive every year, Barros was a proven winner and wow he got a podium, Casey took TEN wins in that year, pointing to him being the good part of the package, I am not fighting the facts, the tire rule changed and showed the massive flaws in the design, From this point no one could ride that bike but Casey, he told Preziosi what was wrong and so did all the others, he refused to except his concept was flawed, only after PM had stumped up a massive amount to get Rossi and co was he forced to make changes, and even then the new frames were made to his old geometries only now using a twin spar design, when JB left he said the changes needed were to the head stock geometry hence the understeer, if you are not convinced go back and look at Rossi's first year, he made massive ride hight and wheelbase changes (it looked like a chopper at times) and it made no difference, we are in a sport where very small changes to settings make a huge difference, but not on the Ducati, hence pointing to a major design flaw, JB thought he could just dial out the problem as you could on the Yamaha and Honda, but if the concept is wrong you have no chance, Casey pushed through the vagueness and found how to make it work, but that took guts and even the great Vale didn't want to put his neck on the line trying, face facts the bike does not work.

Kropotkin

3588311377034495

Whilst I agree with your assessment of the fuel mapping, HRC's dominance can, in my opinion, but traced back to two key developments. One was poaching Andrea Zugna, Cristian Battaglia and Carlo Luzzi from Yamaha in 2009. They were the electronics gurus who had helped to make the Yamaha a winning package through its drivability. The other was the arrival of Nakamoto, and his push to get HRC engineers to listen to their riders, and especially to Pedrosa. Nakamoto is one of the most talented men in the paddock, on many fronts, and it was he who got HRC to work on the input from Pedrosa, and turned the Honda round from a right dog in 2009 to a bike that handled well by about mid-2010. The arrival of Gabarrini just accelerated a development which was, in my opinion, already well underway. I think Pedrosa deserves a little more credit for helping to develop the Honda, and Nakamoto, for turning HRC around and giving it a more human face.

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100% agree, alas Preziosi never listened to his riders so his flawed design keeps going to this day.

Considering Stoner finished  around 200 points clear of Loris, I think calling the GP7 the best bike on the grid by far a stupid comment. You stated Loris was on his way to the championship in 2006, so why did he get less than half the points of his team mate, did he forget how to ride, or was the bike hard to ride.


 


The GP7 was the fastest bike by far, but it sure as .... wasn't the best bike. Good fuel management = lots of power & fast bike, bad TC = a bike that's hard to ride.

thedeal

3588331377034738

100% agree, alas Preziosi never listened to his riders so his flawed design keeps going to this day.

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The carbon monocoque and the carbon swingarm were Preziosi's attempts to dial in chassis flex for the control tire. The aluminum twin spar has little to do with Preziosi, and Audi probably replaced Preziosi with Gobmeier b/c the latter has experience working with aluminum chassis structures.

thedeal

3588321377034531

You are not getting it, Capirossi had three wins the year before and had been competitive every year, Barros was a proven winner and wow he got a podium, Casey took TEN wins in that year, pointing to him being the good part of the package, I am not fighting the facts, the tire rule changed and showed the massive flaws in the design, From this point no one could ride that bike but Casey, he told Preziosi what was wrong and so did all the others, he refused to except his concept was flawed, only after PM had stumped up a massive amount to get Rossi and co was he forced to make changes, and even then the new frames were made to his old geometries only now using a twin spar design, when JB left he said the changes needed were to the head stock geometry hence the understeer, if you are not convinced go back and look at Rossi's first year, he made massive ride hight and wheelbase changes (it looked like a chopper at times) and it made no difference, we are in a sport where very small changes to settings make a huge difference, but not on the Ducati, hence pointing to a major design flaw, JB thought he could just dial out the problem as you could on the Yamaha and Honda, but if the concept is wrong you have no chance, Casey pushed through the vagueness and found how to make it work, but that took guts and even the great Vale didn't want to put his neck on the line trying, face facts the bike does not work.

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Yep, flawed design. Ok, as flawed as Kawasaki and Suzuki designs. Ok, then. Everybody is dumb and can't design a bike. Right.


To one design to be considered flawed, it depends on the point of view. With the right tire, the design works. With other tire, it doesn't. How could you then call this a flaw from the design? Is it fair to obligate factories to design as you wish and call them flawed if they fail?


It's not a design flawed, it IS a set of rules flawed, got it? Open the ....... rules and everybody can compete with the weapons they know the most. It's simple as it should be, as it always was.

33 Coupe

3588341377035222

Considering Stoner finished  around 200 points clear of Loris, I think calling the GP7 the best bike on the grid by far a stupid comment. You stated Loris was on his way to the championship in 2006, so why did he get less than half the points of his team mate, did he forget how to ride, or was the bike hard to ride.

 

The GP7 was the fastest bike by far, but it sure as .... wasn't the best bike. Good fuel management = lots of power & fast bike, bad TC = a bike that's hard to ride.

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Did you watched Motogp in 2006?


Sorry if you weren't born yet.

gui22a

3588371377036123

Did you watched Motogp in 2006?


Sorry if you weren't born yet.

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Yes. Ducati was a very competitive bike & Loris was right up there in the title race.


 


So, what happened in 2007. Why did Loris finish 7th in the championship & 200 point behind his team mate. He was riding the best bike by far - remember.

33 Coupe

3588391377036648

Yes. Ducati was a very competitive bike & Loris was right up there in the title race.


 


So, what happened in 2007. Why did Loris finish 7th in the championship & 200 point behind his team mate. He was riding the best bike by far - remember.

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You watched MotoGP in 2006 but not in 2007?


 


Points does not count the whole history. Loris fell in Qatar, Donington, Assen and Laguna Seca, whereas Stoner scored every race. Besides that, his performance was on pair with 2006, inconstant results as Loris always had, but if was not by his falls (had one fall he got hurt, not sure which one) he could have scored much higher.

Mmmmm


 


New math 4X25 = 200 points


 


OK got it