ASSEN GP: Predict, Practice, Qual

J4rn0 said:

Seriously. That's the situation atm... sorry for you.

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No my friend "sorry for you"



Your pissing down our backs & telling us it's raining.

Jumkie said:

I think what's being lost with our friend J4rno is that Ducati is saving money, no doubt, and its with purpose. That they support the privateer Ducati team is a fraction of the cost to run a true factory squad. I'm not sure how it can be debated that Ducati against the notion that they circled all the wagons around their GP effort, pretty much everybody I've read states this. I'm not sure how much use there is in arguing with J4rno, as he still thinks Ducati are doing nothing 'special' for Rossi, because he is Rossi. Just think about that for a moment, this is the state of his perception concerning Ducati. But I contend its not accidental, as there is purpose behind this notion, why, because of what it would mean for Rossi. Clearly he doesn't and hasn't admitted that Rossi has got special development treatment never before seen for another rider, and still no real success. The funny thing is, I recently quoted him saying Ducati had made a "radical" course change. The implication is hard to swallow. And this idea he argues that Ducati pulled out of WSBK being unrelated to GP is simply an extension of that argument.



As for Austin, I think he's pointing out the particulars, in a technical sense. Sure, Ducati may be providing some development work, but a mere shadow of what was before.

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Thanks Jum

I thought my point was obvious, even though J4rn0 & surprisingly Austin refused to acknowledge it.



Here is that photo one more time.



Now anybody can do the maths here.



How much money for instance would a factory save by not flying all these employees to Phillip Island for instance?

How much money for instance would a factory save by not putting all those employees up at hotels?

How much would a team save for instance by not paying wages to all those employees? Including 2 factory riders?

How much would a factory save in logistics by not having to transport their own gear?

As I said I thought my point was obvious.

Yes they may still be developing a superbike, but they would be doing that anyway if the factory team had stayed. So that point is moot.

Keshav said:

I never said Rossi went there because he was desperate. I said he went there because he was foolish, in that he had a tantrum at Yamaha and arrogantly painted himself into a corner.



I never said Ducati contracted Rossi out of desperation either. They were overjoyed to have him, because their arrogance blinded them to the faults of their design flaws, allowing them the illusion that Rossi and JB would just pop by for a chat - assuring future championships.

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These 2 statements are the crux of the whole issue imo.



Rossi could have stayed at honda ( and quite possibly be lining up for his 11th premier class title now) just as he he could have stayed at yamaha.



Ducati obviously didn't appreciate the problems of their bike until they tried to make the 2010 bike more "rideable" for others, and rossi's problems with the 2011 bike absolutely confirmed this, there being no place such as the rider being erratic to hide with rossi on board.



I think events have unfolded rather than there being a master plan; rossi probably would not have even been available without his injury problems last year, and certainly signing him was not even in prospect at the time they were chasing jorge in 2009. However whilst ducati and rossi/jb probably anticipated a fairly quick fix at the time they signed rossi, the stakes are now nuclear and they have no alternative but to throw everything into making the bike competitive, lest the factory be burned down as kropotkin puts it . I am sure with the money rossi brought they would have put more money into bike development anyway, but now they have no option except to throw everything they have at the bike before the sponsors or rossi himself become disaffected. I think ducati using the resources rossi brings (jb among them) to set-up for the long-term as j4rno propounds is a reasonable proposition, but I don't think this was the plan all along, they just signed the only available alien with the intention of winning races/the championship this year; I am sure their focus just now is rather immediate as opposed to 5 or 10 years in the future.



I have no problem with rossi having advantages (which he has had from time to time) or with anyone else having advantages as long as they lie within the rules, so I am a little over this discussion, as long as moaning about stoner having advantages to explain his successes but placing responsibility for his relative failures entirely on him rather than ducati/the bike is also over. The latter seems to be the case except for a few die-hards.

Frizzle said:

Thanks Jum

I thought my point was obvious, even though J4rn0 & surprisingly Austin refused to acknowledge it.



Here is that photo one more time.



Now anybody can do the maths here.



How much money for instance would a factory save by not flying all these employees to Phillip Island for instance?

How much money for instance would a factory save by not putting all those employees up at hotels?

How much would a team save for instance by not paying wages to all those employees? Including 2 factory riders?

How much would a factory save in logistics by not having to transport their own gear?

As I said I thought my point was obvious.

Yes they may still be developing a superbike, but they would be doing that anyway if the factory team had stayed. So that point is moot.

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But they must have also lost all the sponsor money from Xerox, Valsir etc.. But i do not know how much the gains and loss would be!!

surendhar said:

But they must have also lost all the sponsor money from Xerox, Valsir etc.. But i do not know how much the gains and loss would be!!

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You have got valid point there but as you said its difficult to tell how much money they were getting from their sponsors.

surendhar said:

But they must have also lost all the sponsor money from Xerox, Valsir etc.. But i do not know how much the gains and loss would be!!

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Of course. But the entire argument of Ducati "shutting down" their WSBK operation is false. It is only another devious way of building a case against Rossi, who is supposedly vampirizing all Ducati resources... You look into the arguments pushed by the "Jumkies" of this forum and they all reveal just that incurable obsession with Rossi as the source of all evils. They conveniently ignore the facts that Ducati is leading the WSBK championship and that they have just tested a completely new WSBK bike with Bayliss at Mugello.



Not so bad for an operation that has just been shut down to divert its resources into building a Space Shuttle for the hated Valentino Rossi.

J4rn0 said:

Of course. But the entire argument of Ducati "shutting down" their WSBK operation is false. It is only another devious way of building a case against Rossi, who is supposedly vampirizing all Ducati resources... You look into the arguments pushed by the "Jumkies" of this forum and they all reveal just that incurable obsession with Rossi as the source of all evils.

They conveniently ignore the facts that Ducati is leading the WSBK championship and that they have just tested a completely new WSBK bike with Bayliss at Mugello.



Not so bad for an operation that has just been shut down to divert its resources into building a Space Shuttle for the hated Valentino Rossi.

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For goodness sake J4rn0

Again I'll repeat this point has absolutely nothing to do with how competitive the Ducati WSBK is.

Ducati have not shut down their superbike operation, they have shut down their factory team. You can drop this defense now.

We are talking about the savings they are making from not running a factory team.

Stop changing the subject. Nobody has stated that this years superbike is crap or has had no development.

We are stating that they are saving an arm & a leg by not running their own team & leaving all costs to someone else.

I can't understand why anyone would refute that.

surendhar said:

But they must have also lost all the sponsor money from Xerox, Valsir etc.. But i do not know how much the gains and loss would be!!

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Valid point, but did they lose them because they shut down the team? Does anyone think the Ducati WSBK team would have gone without sponsors in 2011?

I think not.

Frizzle said:

For goodness sake J4rn0

Again I'll repeat this point has absolutely nothing to do with how competitive the Ducati WSBK is.

Ducati have not shut down their superbike operation, they have shut down their factory team. You can drop this defense now.

We are talking about the savings they are making from not running a factory team.

Stop changing the subject. Nobody has stated that this years superbike is crap or has had no development.

We are stating that they are saving an arm & a leg by not running their own team & leaving all costs to someone else.

I can't understand why anyone would refute that.

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Hang on though, Ducati's factory team had massive sponsor support, from Xerox/shell/valsir/breill etc. No doubt this money was paying for the everyday bills and in essence this team funded itself. With updates from the factory arriving earlier than the satellite efforts being the main advantage of the 'factory' team-and the main cost to Ducati Motor Holding-via Ducati Corse.



This season Ducati are supplying the Althea team-and the 2 Effenbert efforts. All of which are extremely competitive, all of which are funding themselves, all of which are probably receiving the updates at the same time, not a great deal of difference here methinks.



It is also widely known that since the retirement of Bayliss, the loss of Tardozi and a failed 'cu' to have a tech reg changed, Ducati had lost interest in WSBK and their factory team. Many believing that the signing of Rossi just made it easy to let it go.



IMO in actual hard figures its not saving them that much by not having the factory team in WSBK, especially how it was run for the last 2 seasons. Funnily enough this year is their best since Bayliss.....

Talpa said:

Hang on though, Ducati's factory team had massive sponsor support, from Xerox/shell/valsir/breill etc. No doubt this money was paying for the everyday bills and in essence this team funded itself. With updates from the factory arriving earlier than the satellite efforts being the main advantage of the 'factory' team-and the main cost to Ducati Motor Holding-via Ducati Corse.



This season Ducati are supplying the Althea team-and the 2 Effenbert efforts. All of which are extremely competitive, all of which are funding themselves, all of which are probably receiving the updates at the same time, not a great deal of difference here methinks.



It is also widely known that since the retirement of Bayliss, the loss of Tardozi and a failed 'cu' to have a tech reg changed, Ducati had lost interest in WSBK and their factory team. Many believing that the signing of Rossi just made it easy to let it go.



IMO in actual hard figures its not saving them that much by not having the factory team in WSBK, especially how it was run for the last 2 seasons. Funnily enough this year is their best since Bayliss.....

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Read the post above yours.

Did they lose all their sponsors or are they gone because they closed down the factory team?

Well yes your right they have no team to sponsor, but this does not alter the point, which is if they are saving lots of coin by not being there, therefore redirecting funding to the premier class effort.



I don't believe they are. And the extra dollars Rossi has brought to the motogp effort through 'AMG' etc is no doubt helping dramatically with the revised efforts from Ducati.



Speaking of dollars, I just read am article on motorcycleusa.com stating that Hondas spend in 2011 on their Motogp effort is over $400 million!!!!!!



The next best is Yamaha at around $280million. And we're all suppose to believe that the MSMA regs are suppose to be saving money. With this kind of investment from one manufacture around the regs they forged it's not surprising we aren't seeing new tyre compounds......

Talpa said:

Well yes your right they have no team to sponsor, but this does not alter the point, which is if they are saving lots of coin by not being there, therefore redirecting funding to the premier class effort.



I don't believe they are. And the extra dollars Rossi has brought to the motogp effort through 'AMG' etc is no doubt helping dramatically with the revised efforts from Ducati.



Speaking of dollars, I just read am article on motorcycleusa.com stating that Hondas spend in 2011 on their Motogp effort is over $400 million!!!!!!



The next best is Yamaha at around $280million. And we're all suppose to believe that the MSMA regs are suppose to be saving money. With this kind of investment from one manufacture around the regs they forged it's not surprising we aren't seeing new tyre compounds......

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Oh I agree with you. Valentino has brought sponsors with him to Ducati that may not have been there otherwise. But look at all the sponsors on the bike & on the riders leathers. Most were already there.

Generali, Riello Ups, Enel, Shell, Phillip Morris, Guabello, Puma etc.

The savings they are making on not fielding a factory team would be substantial indeed. They may still have their hands in superbike in various forms, but there is no doubt motogp is their main focus now.

If any other rider besides Vale was riding for them I believe the current scenario would be drastically different & it has been in the past when he wasn't there.

It's Ducati's money & they can spend it how they see fit. But in my opinion Ducati are moving heaven & earth for Vale. That's fine, but why didn't they put that level of focus in before?

Frizzle said:

We are stating that they are saving an arm & a leg by not running their own team & leaving all costs to someone else.

I can't understand why anyone would refute that.

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As J4rno has said, those costs were covered by sponsorship dollars. I'd take his word for it. Look at the companies who've adorned those bikes in the past: Xerox, Fila, Infostrada/Wind. Those are major brands and I don't think they're nickel and diming their way on to those bikes. I'd be very surprised if they weren't the best paying sponsors in World Superbike, just as Marlboro are rumored to be the best paying sponsors in MotoGP.



They're no longer dealing with the headache of the logistics of running a factory team, but I imagine they're probably spending similar money. And then, of course, you factor in the development of the all-new Superbike.

Frizzle said:

For goodness sake J4rn0

Again I'll repeat this point has absolutely nothing to do with how competitive the Ducati WSBK is.

Ducati have not shut down their superbike operation, they have shut down their factory team. You can drop this defense now.

We are talking about the savings they are making from not running a factory team.

Stop changing the subject. Nobody has stated that this years superbike is crap or has had no development.

We are stating that they are saving an arm & a leg by not running their own team & leaving all costs to someone else.

I can't understand why anyone would refute that.

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Because, Friz, that is what J4 does. He always argues against points that nobody has made and ignores the ones you have made.

Austin said:

As J4rno has said, those costs were covered by sponsorship dollars. I'd take his word for it. Look at the companies who've adorned those bikes in the past: Xerox, Fila, Infostrada/Wind. Those are major brands and I don't think they're nickel and diming their way on to those bikes. I'd be very surprised if they weren't the best paying sponsors in World Superbike, just as Marlboro are rumored to be the best paying sponsors in MotoGP.



They're no longer dealing with the headache of the logistics of running a factory team, but I imagine they're probably spending similar money. And then, of course, you factor in the development of the all-new Superbike.

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Are you trying to say that without pulling their factory team they would not have spent anything on developing their new superbike?

If you aren't then your point is again moot, because those costs are already there. Those sponsors (marlboro included) were already there.



It's not a hard question.

If any other rider was riding the factory Motogp bike, would the superbike factory team have still been closed down? No way IMO.

Would the parts being thrown at the Ducati right now still have been thrown at it without Rossi? I'm not talking about next years parts, I'm talking about the fact that they have already provided a new chassis & a new engine before the choice to use next years bike. Last year despite all the front end losses attributed to all the Ducati riders, Stoner said he was given 2009 forks to fix the problem. So do you think Ducati have given the same level of commitment to Stoner, Hayden, Capirossi & Melandri than they are right now to Rossi?

Frizzle said:

Are you trying to say that without pulling their factory team they would not have spent anything on developing their new superbike?

If you aren't then your point is again moot, because those costs are already there. Those sponsors (marlboro included) were already there.



It's not a hard question.

If any other rider was riding the factory Motogp bike, would the superbike factory team have still been closed down? No way IMO.

Would the parts being thrown at the Ducati right now still have been thrown at it without Rossi? I'm not talking about next years parts, I'm talking about the fact that they have already provided a new chassis & a new engine before the choice to use next years bike. Last year despite all the front end losses attributed to all the Ducati riders, Stoner said he was given 2009 forks to fix the problem. So do you think Ducati have given the same level of commitment to Stoner, Hayden, Capirossi & Melandri than they are right now to Rossi?

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There is also talk of carmelo playing golf with ducati's owners and convincing them that as an elite/luxury brand ducati should be focusing on the most elite bike racing series, that being motogp in his view of course.



I am usually on the other side of these arguments, but I don't really understand the passion on this thread about rossi getting more development resources than stoner. Unless dorna are funding ducati surreptitiously or something illegal is happening I don't have a problem. Sure ducati didn't appreciate what they had in stoner and they, or marlboro anyway, treated him badly during his health problems, but now that the GPig 11.0 has been proven to be undevelopable and hence the woes of the ducati in 2010 and 2011 not likely to be due to any deficiencies in the riders which most rossi fans have had to admit, and the stoner huge advantages theory having been imo fairly comprehensively exploded, why is there any need for even die hard stoner fans like me to worry about all this ?



Ducati did stoner a favour. He has parachuted into the hrc factory team at about the same age as mick doohan was when he signed, and has much more opportunity to win multiple titles than he would have had as a career ducati factory rider, and whatever resources are currently being thrown at the ducati bike in the name of valentino are still unlikely to approach those of hrc. If you are an active rossi hater which I don't see myself as being you could take some pleasure in his situation being entirely of his own devising as I think you said earlier in the thread, but I would rather see him back at the front, karma having punished him enough for the pre-season comments imo. If they do get back there, which I think they will at least next year, it will still be a very significant achievement against the might of the japanese factory teams, as was the 2007 title of course.

michaelm said:

There is also talk of carmelo playing golf with ducati's owners and convincing them that as an elite/luxury brand ducati should be focusing on the most elite bike racing series, that being motogp in his view of course.



I am usually on the other side of these arguments, but I don't really understand the passion on this thread about rossi getting more development resources than stoner. Unless dorna are funding ducati surreptitiously or something illegal is happening I don't have a problem. Sure ducati didn't appreciate what they had in stoner and they, or marlboro anyway, treated him badly during his health problems, but now that the GPig 11.0 has been proven to be undevelopable and hence the woes of the ducati in 2010 and 2011 not likely to be due to any deficiencies in the riders which most rossi fans have had to admit, and the stoner huge advantages theory having been imo fairly comprehensively exploded, why is there any need for even die hard stoner fans like me to worry about all this ?



Ducati did stoner a favour. He has parachuted into the hrc factory team at about the same age as mick doohan was when he signed, and has much more opportunity to win multiple titles than he would have had as a career ducati factory rider, and whatever resources are currently being thrown at the ducati bike in the name of valentino are still unlikely to approach those of hrc. If you are an active rossi hater which I don't see myself as being you could take some pleasure in his situation being entirely of his own devising as I think you said earlier in the thread, but I would rather see him back at the front, karma having punished him and jb enough for their pre-season comments imo. If they do get back there, which I think they will at least next year, it will still be a very significant achievement against the might of the japanese factory teams, as was the 2007 title of course.

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Well Michael. Lets just say that for the bottom 3rd of 2011 Ducati get the bike sorted. We will hear from all & sundry (maybe even yourself) what a wonderful developer Rossi is.

But under the circumstances what hope in hell did all the other riders have of fixing the problem, when the funds weren't there for them but are for the next rider? In other words all this best development rider argument is absolute total crap.

Frizzle said:

Well Michael. Lets just say that for the bottom 3rd of 2011 Ducati get the bike sorted. We will hear from all & sundry (maybe even yourself) what a wonderful developer Rossi is.

But under the circumstances what hope in hell did all the other riders have of fixing the problem, when the funds weren't there for them but are for the next rider? In other words all this best development rider argument is absolute total crap.

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We just have different views on this then, I guess, even though our views are similar on many other subjects.



I am not infrequently and perhaps even sometimes correctly accused of being excessively diplomatic, but my genuine wish is to see stoner credited rather than rossi discredited, and I don't think the two necessarily have to be associated.

michaelm said:

We just have different views on this then, I guess, even though our views are similar on many other subjects.



I am not infrequently and perhaps even sometimes correctly accused of being excessively diplomatic, but my genuine wish is to see stoner credited rather than rossi discredited, and I don't think the two necessarily have to be associated.

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As am I. As I said It's Ducati's money to spend as they wish, but if I hear that Rossi fixed the bike crap whenever they get it sorted, then I have given my view on why he has a big advantage in this area.

Nothing wrong with being diplomatic either Michael. It's just sometimes we others fail miserably.

You contributions to this forum are always appreciated.