Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
Your probably right, my eyes aint the best in the world, and the physics of the slide would be slightly out of whack also. That would be a trick though.
Joined May 2009
6K Posts | 4K+
Shovel's Club
Your probably right, my eyes aint the best in the world, and the physics of the slide would be slightly out of whack also. That would be a trick though.
I was with you until L8 pointed that out, good eye brothah. I could see him doing that at the very end of a slide, but thats not even mid-corner.
There was a video of Stoner on the Duck and he was sideways throughout entry, mid and exit.
That pic shows the commitment level these guys have, pointed INSIDE the apex and throttle on!
That pic shows the commitment level these guys have, pointed INSIDE the apex and throttle on!
Joined May 2009
6K Posts | 4K+
Shovel's Club
not the foot but like l8 said the swing inside of the foot. Its already been figured out.
Joined Aug 2008
6K Posts | 748+
Thailand
Joined May 2009
6K Posts | 4K+
Shovel's Club
your not getting it. down and right from his foot and the peg. not up where his heel is, I can see the heel plain as day. down and right of there. little blackness. optical illusion looks to be in front of foot but it not.
U can see the base of the peg. thats the spot right below there.
Joined Jun 2007
10K Posts | 1K+
Norah Head
Ok I'm going to wade into this with some insight .......... and it kinda goes back to the whole peaceful, well thought out and presented, totally un-emotional (
) discussion I had with Ereb. about backing it in.
I didn't realize fully that the technique Stoner was using is perhaps idiosyncratic to his background in Aus. dirt track, and is in fact pretty alien to many outside that code. I can in short now see
a. why it seemed alien to Ereb. to accept that this is may be used to back it in and maintain speed, and
b. why I found it alien that he could not accept it.
Owing to the manner in which, instead of rear brake, the throttle is used to break traction ( hence spinup the rear faster ) there is a propensity for the front wheel to come off the ground. Even though traction is broken the spinup does provide a large forward acceleration force in the direction the rear wheel is pointed, and the mass of the bike likewise will try and lift around the rear axle, just like any wheelie.
So in the picture, even though it is difficult to see conclusively, I would suggest that it is very likely the case. Also I think the amount of daylight we see on the ground under where the front wheel is would suggest that the front is is at least "light".
Be patient and we may see a photo from on front one day were it is more obvious.
Because its on tarmac it will never be as dramatic as this:
( yes I know its speedway but its the nearest thing to Aus. short circuit/dirt track )
more like this:
but its essentially the same.
But I would also proffer that Stoner seems to be using weight shift and lean angle well too, not just throttle, to achieve the same end. Its kinda why I feel he is a greater proponent of it than McCoy was. Stoner gets more speed out of it. And its kinda spooky the lean angle he does it at
I didn't realize fully that the technique Stoner was using is perhaps idiosyncratic to his background in Aus. dirt track, and is in fact pretty alien to many outside that code. I can in short now see
a. why it seemed alien to Ereb. to accept that this is may be used to back it in and maintain speed, and
b. why I found it alien that he could not accept it.
Owing to the manner in which, instead of rear brake, the throttle is used to break traction ( hence spinup the rear faster ) there is a propensity for the front wheel to come off the ground. Even though traction is broken the spinup does provide a large forward acceleration force in the direction the rear wheel is pointed, and the mass of the bike likewise will try and lift around the rear axle, just like any wheelie.
So in the picture, even though it is difficult to see conclusively, I would suggest that it is very likely the case. Also I think the amount of daylight we see on the ground under where the front wheel is would suggest that the front is is at least "light".
Be patient and we may see a photo from on front one day were it is more obvious.
Because its on tarmac it will never be as dramatic as this:
( yes I know its speedway but its the nearest thing to Aus. short circuit/dirt track )
more like this:
but its essentially the same.
But I would also proffer that Stoner seems to be using weight shift and lean angle well too, not just throttle, to achieve the same end. Its kinda why I feel he is a greater proponent of it than McCoy was. Stoner gets more speed out of it. And its kinda spooky the lean angle he does it at
Agree BM, CS is exploiting the drift into corners better than Gary M as you say maintaining speed, did plenty of short circuit and motocross in his junior days.
Weight distribution is most important ala speedway ofcourse but nowhere near in the back arching but the feeling as one with the machine CS has plenty of control, awesum to watch.
Weight distribution is most important ala speedway ofcourse but nowhere near in the back arching but the feeling as one with the machine CS has plenty of control, awesum to watch.
Joined Jun 2007
10K Posts | 1K+
Norah Head
Not sure CS did an aweful lot of mx and to be honest mx does not teach you the technique. Their are to few suitable corners in mx to really allow the technique to be identified ..... let alone practiced ........ its a smooth track thing
Short circuit is a funny code, I used to use the same bike but I would change it in two specific areas
1. Gear the bike way taller
2. Fit a trials tyre on the back ( though I note that today they just use an mx tyre, probably a hard terrainfor the traction/slip needed. Cos back in the day all the tracks were oiled with old sump oil to keep the dust down, and today ( cos of EPA, environmental concerns etc. ) they water the track instead, which makes them slipperier than the old oil surface ) The old tracks were like ridng on plasticine whereas today its like Playdough .......
3. Lower the suspension ...
or if I was lucky I would get an offer of a slider to ride for the day ............ the ultimate fun
oh and weight distribution is 3D not just front to back. eg. if you watch stoner he often leans well in off the bike and thence can lean the bike in more or out ....... or let it go hopefully if it highsides and you don't go with it
EDIT: Interesting page I found ........ you US flat track fans may not want to read this
http://thevintagent.blogspot.com/2008/06/vintage-dirt-track-racing.html
great old shots and adds to the story of this "alien" style.
Also, my grandfather participated at that first ever dirt track event, though he said it was more like a few blokes getting out and being goats.
Also maybe Kurri Kurri is special because thats near where it all started? I can't remember if my grandfather said it was Kurri or Greta showground?
Joined Jun 2007
10K Posts | 1K+
Norah Head
Front end light but not off the ground yet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBeS9mUImd4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhFYYa6v0K8&feature=related
which then begs another question as to Rossi's chances with develoing the Duc. Stoners style would actually hinder him totally.
Stoner rides into the corner with the front end light, Rossi heavy ......... hence he would need a totally different bike
Frankly, they are up .... creek.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBeS9mUImd4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhFYYa6v0K8&feature=related
which then begs another question as to Rossi's chances with develoing the Duc. Stoners style would actually hinder him totally.
Stoner rides into the corner with the front end light, Rossi heavy ......... hence he would need a totally different bike
Frankly, they are up .... creek.
Joined Apr 2008
7K Posts | 3K+
Out of Nowhere
Ok I'm going to wade into this with some insight .......... and it kinda goes back to the whole peaceful, well thought out and presented, totally un-emotional () discussion I had with Ereb. about backing it in.
I didn't realize fully that the technique Stoner was using is perhaps idiosyncratic to his background in Aus. dirt track, and is in fact pretty alien to many outside that code. I can in short now see
a. why it seemed alien to Ereb. to accept that this is may be used to back it in and maintain speed, and
b. why I found it alien that he could not accept it.
Owing to the manner in which, instead of rear brake, the throttle is used to break traction ( hence spinup the rear faster ) there is a propensity for the front wheel to come off the ground. Even though traction is broken the spinup does provide a large forward acceleration force in the direction the rear wheel is pointed, and the mass of the bike likewise will try and lift around the rear axle, just like any wheelie.
So in the picture, even though it is difficult to see conclusively, I would suggest that it is very likely the case. Also I think the amount of daylight we see on the ground under where the front wheel is would suggest that the front is is at least "light".
Be patient and we may see a photo from on front one day were it is more obvious.
Because its on tarmac it will never be as dramatic as this:
( yes I know its speedway but its the nearest thing to Aus. short circuit/dirt track )
more like this:
but its essentially the same.
But I would also proffer that Stoner seems to be using weight shift and lean angle well too, not just throttle, to achieve the same end. Its kinda why I feel he is a greater proponent of it than McCoy was. Stoner gets more speed out of it. And its kinda spooky the lean angle he does it at
A well reasoned post Barry. I think to be fair, as sublime and spectacular as backing in is, it remains as you have always argued essentially a skid, a controlled method of locking and sliding the rear by application of the downshift and the rear brake. As Jamie Whitham contends the downshift is far less significant with the advent of the slipper clutch and increasingly riders that like to back in like Rea are increasingly doing so through the rear brake. It would seem that as prevalent as this still is in WSBk, this has become wholly redundant in contemporary MotoGP and I agree the highly involved dirt track techniques that Casey is summoning on a Moto GP bike on the approach to a corner and his ability to powerslide throughout the turn at such extreme lean angles are as unprecedented in GP as they are remarkable.
As an aside there was a very interesting discussion on today's WSBk coverage between James Hayden and James Whitham based on Neil Hodgson's comments in commentary over use of the back brake in the series. Nothing to do with backing in, apparently Haslam has had to rely upon the rear to stabilise the BMW and to try and get it stopped for corners. Riders such as Melandri and Biaggi naturally use the rear brake very heavily owing to their 250 pedigree and the responsive feel that those machines availed to the rider.
Joined Jun 2007
10K Posts | 1K+
Norah Head
I still don't agree its only done by downshifting and rear brake at all ( some of the most spectacular "backins' I've ever done, and seen, were on bikes with only one gear and no brakes
) ....... and I am willing to add that its probably my background that allows me to say that. I am now willing to admit it would seem to be odd or even "alien". I would accept that Whitham may never had a need to do it so all he may know is breaking traction by lessening the rear wheels speed in relation to the track surface. Did Whitham ever ride dirt track? ( not mx its not the same ) eg.
Son at 15? mucking around trying it on an mx track:
Thats the result of getting the back out before the corner with a handful of throttle and timing hitting the berm with the rear out.
Its a big hit when you reach the berm
..... but it virtually stops you dead when you hit the berm .... so too slow. ) I think it was also hard on the neck
Wrong corner to practice it on
Closer to a better corner: ( no brakes just throttle and manhandling bike )
Interesting sidenote about that shot, son was on same model bike but 30 odd years later than this one of me at a similar age, we realized the coincidence a few years after we took his shot
:
been posted before sometime ago I think too
I hope you read this :
http://thevintagent.blogspot.com/2008/06/vintage-dirt-track-racing.html
"The Australians invented the broadsliding style of racing, on 'borrowed' dirt horse tracks, where the rear wheel is allowed to slide out on corners - this makes for spectacular viewing, as the riders struggle to control the machines solely by use of throttle and lean angle, as the rear wheel kicks up a rooster tail of dirt."
I bolded those bits but draw your attention to the words "allowed to" ............ its very apt and is a good way of putting it cos it is really an "on the edge" thing to be doing and is a far cry from just skidding the rear wheel to slow it to break traction.
Interestingly I think it also in some way exonerates a much maligned comment of Babel's ....... ie. the "I was watching and Stoner just cracks the throttle before the corner and lets TC take over", comment ( or similar, that he once made ) ........ the bold bit may well have been true ..... however his analysis of why he was doing it and what then happened is very likely not. Again, it being such an alien thing to do perhaps may have prompted such an obscure analysis. However his observation could have been correct.
I would also suggest it is probably a trait that gave our Aussie riders that little extra eg. Gardner. Doohan and now Stoner. And its nice to see Stoner doing it ......... Pretty much all of our GP quality riders came from Aust. Dirt track. McCoy also but I don't think he was ever the quality of the others.
I think i said it before somewhere its almost like Stoner is reading some of our stuff and he decided to start giving a demo of the technique. Catalunya was when he was doing it so graphically. And again at Silverstone. There are some corners where it is just perfect to do.
I don't at all think Stoner is pushing it either yet. I believe Stoner is also very good at riding the bike into a corner with the front brake and rear wheel in the air then transitioning to a spunup rear wheel instead of a stopped ( slowed rear ). This front brake bit he did not get from dirt track ..... as to do so on dirt is ...... not good
Son at 15? mucking around trying it on an mx track:
Thats the result of getting the back out before the corner with a handful of throttle and timing hitting the berm with the rear out.
Its a big hit when you reach the berm
Closer to a better corner: ( no brakes just throttle and manhandling bike )
Interesting sidenote about that shot, son was on same model bike but 30 odd years later than this one of me at a similar age, we realized the coincidence a few years after we took his shot
been posted before sometime ago I think too
I hope you read this :
http://thevintagent.blogspot.com/2008/06/vintage-dirt-track-racing.html
"The Australians invented the broadsliding style of racing, on 'borrowed' dirt horse tracks, where the rear wheel is allowed to slide out on corners - this makes for spectacular viewing, as the riders struggle to control the machines solely by use of throttle and lean angle, as the rear wheel kicks up a rooster tail of dirt."
I bolded those bits but draw your attention to the words "allowed to" ............ its very apt and is a good way of putting it cos it is really an "on the edge" thing to be doing and is a far cry from just skidding the rear wheel to slow it to break traction.
Interestingly I think it also in some way exonerates a much maligned comment of Babel's ....... ie. the "I was watching and Stoner just cracks the throttle before the corner and lets TC take over", comment ( or similar, that he once made ) ........ the bold bit may well have been true ..... however his analysis of why he was doing it and what then happened is very likely not. Again, it being such an alien thing to do perhaps may have prompted such an obscure analysis. However his observation could have been correct.
I would also suggest it is probably a trait that gave our Aussie riders that little extra eg. Gardner. Doohan and now Stoner. And its nice to see Stoner doing it ......... Pretty much all of our GP quality riders came from Aust. Dirt track. McCoy also but I don't think he was ever the quality of the others.
I think i said it before somewhere its almost like Stoner is reading some of our stuff and he decided to start giving a demo of the technique. Catalunya was when he was doing it so graphically. And again at Silverstone. There are some corners where it is just perfect to do.
I don't at all think Stoner is pushing it either yet. I believe Stoner is also very good at riding the bike into a corner with the front brake and rear wheel in the air then transitioning to a spunup rear wheel instead of a stopped ( slowed rear ). This front brake bit he did not get from dirt track ..... as to do so on dirt is ...... not good
You would think if casey were using this dirt track technique as berrybullshit suggests we would be seeing smoke of caseys rear tyre.
