Aragon MotoMarquez.2 probably some sort of information concerning the rider who arrive first

barbedwirebiker said:

I'm of the same school of thought. It's all the 1%'s that Marquez has got dialed on the moto2 machine that differentiates between him and the also rans. What are they gonna say when he cleans up in moto1-GP. Same thing; performance advantage. Funny thing - you never see a slower rider on the fastest machine, the ride is earned , not gifted.

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No, you never know when a faster rider is languishing on a slow machine because they are back in the pack. Just look at Rossi. If he had of started out on that Ducati do you ever think he would be the legend he is today? If Stoner hadn't have got that Ducati ride in 2007, would he have 2 WC's now? A poor rider on a great machine will do nothing. A great rider on a poor machine will go un-noticed. It is naive to think that bikes are handed out based on merit. Especially when evidence to the contrary is so prevalent.



Dorna have no idea at all how to sell the sport but that certainly excel at selling a rider they want to be the star. Marquez has been sold as a God and people have lapped it up.



If anyone actually believes that someone other than Marquez was going to be allowed to win Moto2 this year, I would be very surprised.

barbedwirebiker said:

I'm of the same school of thought. It's all the 1%'s that Marquez has got dialed on the moto2 machine that differentiates between him and the also rans. What are they gonna say when he cleans up in moto1-GP. Same thing; performance advantage. Funny thing - you never see a slower rider on the fastest machine, the ride is earned , not gifted.

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1% skill, 1% assistance, 10% more funds for R and D, a % point here and there for the better motel room and good nights sleep, for the better catering, for the lack of stress not worrying about the future.



For not having to hurry and bustle between races and suck sponsors dicks. It isn't all equal and whilst it can't be rigged it can be helped along quite a bit.

Mental Anarchist said:

No, you never know when a faster rider is languishing on a slow machine because they are back in the pack. Just look at Rossi. If he had of started out on that Ducati do you ever think he would be the legend he is today? If Stoner hadn't have got that Ducati ride in 2007, would he have 2 WC's now? A poor rider on a great machine will do nothing. A great rider on a poor machine will go un-noticed. It is naive to think that bikes are handed out based on merit. Especially when evidence to the contrary is so prevalent.



Dorna have no idea at all how to sell the sport but that certainly excel at selling a rider they want to be the star. Marquez has been sold as a God and people have lapped it up.



If anyone actually believes that someone other than Marquez was going to be allowed to win Moto2 this year, I would be very surprised.

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If Stoner never took the risk and rode on Bridgestones in 2007 they would still be the inferior tyre and we may not have the control tyre. If Rossi was humble enough to stay with 1 factory (Honda) he might have 11 or 12 championships and Agostini's record. Stoner has always spoken very darkly of his time in motogp on the LCR and the Michelins.



Once he was ID'd as a risk to the establishment was was given inferior products. Marquez will never have to go out on a limb. What of the good riders who jumped on a Suzuki or Kawasaki.



Or a Ducati.



They all had to take those risks (except one). And when he got there he discovered that he wasn't really any better than the other guys who had to.



For some the motogp farm is more equal than others.

I'm sure everyone has spouted the lines, ".... but it's not fair!" Usually followed by a childish whine... And in my case it was Dad would spout the wise words, "Life isn't fair."



Toughen up. Make yourself get noticed. Grow your hair out all big and curly. Be cut throat. Good with the sponsors. Quit wasting time with your bitchin and make it fair.



Mark Marq is a super talent and was/is in the right place at the right time. (Hey, Bradley Smith is a better example of this since he lacks talent but holds passport, right place the right time.) Others like Simo and Stoner forced themselves into the right place.

barbedwirebiker said:

I'm of the same school of thought. It's all the 1%'s that Marquez has got dialed on the moto2 machine that differentiates between him and the also rans. What are they gonna say when he cleans up in moto1-GP. Same thing; performance advantage. Funny thing - you never see a slower rider on the fastest machine, the ride is earned , not gifted.

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Yup, just like VR "earned" going back to factory Yamaha. Thats the kind of "earning" Spanish and Italian darlings are use to.

Andy Roo said:

1% skill, 1% assistance, 10% more funds for R and D, a % point here and there for the better motel room and good nights sleep, for the better catering, for the lack of stress not worrying about the future.



For not having to hurry and bustle between races and suck sponsors dicks. It isn't all equal and whilst it can't be rigged it can be helped along quite a bit.









If Stoner never took the risk and rode on Bridgestones in 2007 they would still be the inferior tyre and we may not have the control tyre. If Rossi was humble enough to stay with 1 factory (Honda) he might have 11 or 12 championships and Agostini's record. Stoner has always spoken very darkly of his time in motogp on the LCR and the Michelins.



Once he was ID'd as a risk to the establishment was was given inferior products. Marquez will never have to go out on a limb. What of the good riders who jumped on a Suzuki or Kawasaki.



Or a Ducati.



They all had to take those risks (except one). And when he got there he discovered that he wasn't really any better than the other guys who had to.



For some the motogp farm is more equal than others.

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Andy, ur insight has been sorely missed. U made great points, but the best one was the risk CS took on Bridgestones. Yes, thats right. Up to that point, nobody would have predicted the tire would meld with the weird and strange true prototype Ducati. Apart from this year's Carmelo Clause gifting VR the factory Yam, the worse display of WWF design was the entire tire debacle that ultimately led to VR getting the Bridgestones, the tire cgaracteristics changing abruptly, and then going to a one tire supplier. At that point Ducati should have exited GP as they should have known the rules would be written to harm them (les we forget they wanted to work with Michelin after all this ........ and were denied). Exactly how the rookie rule was changed exclusively for Marc this year, its the example of how the league has openly favored who it desires. Im not sure how this can be so readily overlooked. Still, we wait for the press release that Carmelo is playing favorits. Or we wait for the paddock to point the finger, or as my honest friend, Baturro wants proof. It really is difficult to provide proof, but all the tell tale signs are there. Yes, we are talking about Moto2, but last i checked, its the same peeps who run MoroGP, right?



What sux about it is Marc will be villainized for this favoritism. Hopefully he doesnt take the VR route and play it up and start pronouncing curses on peeps. Marc is just really a boy, and its up to his adult handlers to help him mature. Considering it was the adults in the room who sent him out on track with less that enuf time for a reasonable lap culminating in him almost murdering Wilarot and killing himself, i cant say it inspired confidence. But then again, Lorenzo was a arrogant dangerous prick in the lower class and he turned out to be a mature prudent rider.



Sorry Baturro, i agree with many of ur points, but The advantages i 'see' on the track for Marc make me wonder whats going on behind the scenes. Given the same people who run GP are the same who run Moto2, then i hope u can see why i think there are some shenanigans involved.

I completely agree that what Dorna seems to have done with the VR situation has made the show loose a lot of credibility in a lot of fan's eyes. Mine included. It's a shame Dorna feels they need to ride the coat tails of VR to survive.



In regards to MM, I don't think that is the case. If anyone has decided to place all their eggs in a basket concerning MM it is Repsol, not Dorna. Not Repsol Honda, but Repsol. He was scouted as a young prospect at an early age and was groomed in the lower classes of Spanish racing being sponsored by Repsol. This continued in 125 and Moto 2. I find it perfectly normal for Repsol, who has invested heavily in this boys career, to not be too keen on loosing him for a year. This plays into the rookie rule. For the same reason, I don't think Castrol or any other petrol sponsor would be too thrilled to either loose their sponsorship spot with a team such as San Carlo Gresini for a year to make room for the Repsol or Caixa sponsorship that would follow MM. Said team would not be thrilled to piss off a loyal sponsor, but would probably have too. As Lorenzo may be having to do in regards to Rock Star and Monster.



If MM would have won Moto 2 last year instead of Bradl, I don't think we would have this situation at all. The situation to force the Rookie issue would have been easy because the LCR spot would have opened up to the Moto 2 winner. I'm sure Dorna had a say in paving that opening for Bradl when the team seemed happy with Depuniet. I would imagine MM Caixa colors would have adorned the bike instead of Playboy.



Simo's unfortunate passing I feel also played a part in paving the road for MM to Repsol. If Simo was still with us and providing results under San Carlo this year, his ascension to the Repsol team now knowing the news of Stoner would have been possibly certain. The new flamboyant Italian in Repsol colors is much more of a proven money maker than the diminutive Spaniard in Repsol colors. I think you will agree with this Jumkie!! This opening a spot for MM on the San Carlo team, again with the Caixa colors.



This perfect storm of a situation in a way forced Dorna to remove the rookie rule this year in particular. This decision was also backed by manufacturers and teams. Maybe at gunpoint, I don't know, but it was a decision most if not all were in favor of. If I remember correctly, I think I saw an interview of Herve Poncharal stating that satellite teams were not too thrilled of showing the ropes of the GP circus to the rookie and then having the factory team take him the next year as with Spies.



So we are left with what there is. Repsol, is a huge sponsoring powerhouse and they want to win with MM. They can provide the best legal tec to have an advantage to the competitors. This is exactly what every team strives for. Anyone who has club raced or done any hobby in a competitive fashion knows that the more $ you have to throw at the activity the faster/better you can get and the more chance you have to win. If a team is not playing within the boundaries of the rules I think tec inspection would do their job.

Remember in Rollerball when Jonathan became "bigger" than the sport.



Baturro the proof is all around us, little rule changes, that tiny little push or assistance the other guys don't get. It only has to be small which is my point. A small % here and there.

There was absolutely no reason at all why Marquez and his team couldn't have set up a completely independent satellite team running Repsol colours. The very reason that the satellite teams did pot want him is because he brings a whole crew and entourage. After all it was touted that Rossi could well do this before Carmello did a deal to get him back into the Factory Yamaha Team.



This would have created no reason to end the rookie rule and Dorna to so openly reveal that the sport is manipulated and contrived.

Mental Anarchist said:

There was absolutely no reason at all why Marquez and his team couldn't have set up a completely independent satellite team running Repsol colours. The very reason that the satellite teams did pot want him is because he brings a whole crew and entourage. After all it was touted that Rossi could well do this before Carmello did a deal to get him back into the Factory Yamaha Team.



This would have created no reason to end the rookie rule and Dorna to so openly reveal that the sport is manipulated and contrived.

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Put your christmas present under the tree and wait a year to open it (never). Not when the easter basket can have little MM and VR eggs in it. Thats because the nasty CS egg has left to jump in a basket of V8 supercars.



Apropos this, anyone watching Bathurst this weekend will note that one Casey Stoner is set up in a certain teams pit garage AND the rumour is his times in testing have been remarkable.

There is a reason MA.



Factories can only field 4 GP bikes. One is at Gresini, one at LCR and 2 at Repsol. Both the satellite teams have contracted riders and sponsors they are happy with. Repsol is the only team with a vacancy. Had Stoner not announced his retirement, MM may have been placed with Gresini in place of Bautista, we will never know. The way the cards fell I don't see much alternative as to what they could have done with MM.



If you have some worthwhile suggestions I'm all eyes!

I have a suggestion - when riders in the past had a moto2/250 titles they got another one or two.



I think Max got even more.



Then they went up when they were ready, seasoned, and mature even (perhaps).



We can't have a moneyed passport languishing in the lower classes any more. Not when the European Royalty demand their ascent?

Baturro, i wish Marc all the best in MotoGP. I just hope for godsake it doesnt all go to his head. As i said before, he seems like a nice kid. He doesnt seem arrogant like JLo was in the lower classes at this stage. Honestly, if CS wasnt retiring, i seriously doubt they would have jettisoned the rookie rule.



MA said we might want to rename the thread, CS's retirement ruining the sport, i would agree, as it has ushered in the shenanigans to go hypermode unfettered: Carmelo's Game of Thrones rookie rule, spies mysterious bad luck and subsequent retire/removal from factory, the "calm of VR being on competitive bike", hell, even Nickys resigning seemed a contrived to keep an American in series on heels of Spies possible retirement (as hard as that is for me to admit). And now with Carmelo poised to destroy Wsbk, i feel we are at an all time low point.



So, maybe Baturro, MM can help elevate the series. Maybe he is the real deal u propose, and he will replace CS in terms of talent. God knows i'll be rooting for him among the Repsol HRC team.

baturro said:

There is a reason MA.



Factories can only field 4 GP bikes. One is at Gresini, one at LCR and 2 at Repsol. Both the satellite teams have contracted riders and sponsors they are happy with. Repsol is the only team with a vacancy. Had Stoner not announced his retirement, MM may have been placed with Gresini in place of Bautista, we will never know. The way the cards fell I don't see much alternative as to what they could have done with MM.



If you have some worthwhile suggestions I'm all eyes!

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At the time Honda had not committed to at least LCR. At the time there was talk of Rossi getting his own Honda in his own team nothing to do with LCR or Gresini. If Honda had to they would have refused either Satellite operation a prototype bike with put a second thought.



Baturro, with all due respect you are not even thinking about this. You are just hell bent on believing that nothing special is being done for Marquez in Moto2 or in his rise to MotoGP. With the form of Dorna over the past decade how could you justify in your mind that all is fair and even?

With all due respect back MA not only am I thinking about this issue, but providing as logical a reason as possible for the MM turn of events. Something yourself or anyone else that is debating this issue on this thread has not done. Don't get me wrong, I am not a MM follower fanatic, I get no pay from him. I would be arguing the exact same thing if this was Bradl, Ianone, Pol Esp if any of them were the champ and were in the position MM, and Dorna are in now with how the events I mention in earlier posts fell into place.



Please, I am all ears to this. If you don't mind, provide an unbiassed/untainted scenario as to how the MM-Rookie Rule-Moto2 champ- could have been handed in a different way. With the same characters involved winning the same things, or if this years champ was someone other than MM.

I have already stated how it could have happened.



1 of the 4 Honda's could have been provided to Marquez. He supplies his own team, which he has. He supplies his own sponsorship, which he has. He operates as a Satellite team. As a result either Gresini or LCR would have missed out on their prototype and would have had to run a CRT. They would have kept their long developed team but applied it to a CRT.



This is so simple and there were absolutely NOTHING standing in the way of it happening. This exact option was offered to Rossi.



But, what was feed to us the punter was how disastrous it would be for a Satellite team to have to sack all their crew to accommodate Marquez for just one season. So lets do the right thing by everyone and manipulate the rules for a super star. Guess what? You fell for it. You have regurgitated their spiel word for word.



Who lost by the events that took place? Dorna, their credibility once again brought into question. But the real loser is the rider who, having put in the time on the satellite bike, missed out on the full factory Repsol Honda ride and will probably never again in their career get the chance to show their potential on a bike that has the potential to WIN a race. That is a disgrace!

Mental Anarchist said:

I have already stated how it could have happened.



1 of the 4 Honda's could have been provided to Marquez. He supplies his own team, which he has. He supplies his own sponsorship, which he has. He operates as a Satellite team. As a result either Gresini or LCR would have missed out on their prototype and would have had to run a CRT. They would have kept their long developed team but applied it to a CRT.



This is so simple and there were absolutely NOTHING standing in the way of it happening. This exact option was offered to Rossi.



But, what was feed to us the punter was how disastrous it would be for a Satellite team to have to sack all their crew to accommodate Marquez for just one season. So lets do the right thing by everyone and manipulate the rules for a super star. Guess what? You fell for it. You have regurgitated their spiel word for word.



Who lost by the events that took place? Dorna, their credibility once again brought into question. But the real loser is the rider who, having put in the time on the satellite bike, missed out on the full factory Repsol Honda ride and will probably never again in their career get the chance to show their potential on a bike that has the potential to WIN a race. That is a disgrace!

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It was a stupid rule in the first place, devised 3 or 4 dorna plans for the future of motogp ago. Would they have changed the rule as readily for iannone if honda or yamaha had wanted this? Who knows. But originally the rule was supposedly designed to give the satellite teams access to top talent. Now they have cut the satellite bikes (currently) to 2 hondas and 2 yamahas (the ducatis don't count at this point in time) and CRT or moto1 or whatever last thought carmelo had over a bottle of rioja in a madrid tapas bar last night is/are the future, I guess arguably there is more than enough talent available for the 4 serious satellite rides available.

That is assuming that Gresini or LCR would have been willing to loose a prototype. If these satellite teams would have been forced into this, I guess that in your eyes and of many others MM would still be the the prima dona that had his way. It's a no win situations for the kid.



I guess in your scenario, send Bradl to Repsol? For what a year, then Repsol push the issue and have riders and teams switch spots again?

Your comment suggests that Gresini & LCR have a choice if Honda provides a prototype. I assume that they have a contract for a period of time and then have to negotiate a new contract. I assume these contracts like everything else in MotoGP are for 1 or 2 years.



Why not ask Bradl if he would like a Repsol Honda for 1 year or never? I guarantee I know what his answer would be.



You also assume that Marquez is going to be successful. Perhaps he will not be. Bradl we already know has adapted well to MotoGP and he is a Moto2 WC so why should he not be given the chance to earn more than 1 year on a Factory bike.



You also talk as if Marquez has a god given right to a factory bike.



I have no problem with him being on a factory team but I have a big problem with the rules being changed so it can happen. The sport is in the terrible position it is today because the rules have constantly been manipulated for Rossi. The last thing it needs is another rider being gifted every advantage possible.

Mental Anarchist said:

Your comment suggests that Gresini & LCR have a choice if Honda provides a prototype. I assume that they have a contract for a period of time and then have to negotiate a new contract. I assume these contracts like everything else in MotoGP are for 1 or 2 years.



Why not ask Bradl if he would like a Repsol Honda for 1 year or never? I guarantee I know what his answer would be.



You also assume that Marquez is going to be successful. Perhaps he will not be. Bradl we already know has adapted well to MotoGP and he is a Moto2 WC so why should he not be given the chance to earn more than 1 year on a Factory bike.



You also talk as if Marquez has a god given right to a factory bike.



I have no problem with him being on a factory team but I have a big problem with the rules being changed so it can happen. The sport is in the terrible position it is today because the rules have constantly been manipulated for Rossi. The last thing it needs is another rider being gifted every advantage possible.

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I would take this more as a further example that Dorna/ezy are/is making it up as they go along rather than a pro-spanish conspiracy as you are I guess more or less saying, but as a stoner fan I can see your point; stoner quite likely would never have contended and had a career like de puniet's (thus far) if he hadn't got his 1 year shot on a factory bike because ducati's preferred riders were contracted elsewhere. Bradl actually did beat marquez in last year's moto 2 championship as well.



Ezy actually outsmarted himself by having contradictory rules, because his rule limiting the number of satellite bikes led to the necessity of breaking his rookie rule, otherwise they could have just had a one-off double repsol bike a la nastro azzuro honda which was a real full factory bike if that was honda's wish.

Ezpeleta has constantly out smarted himself because his intentions have always been poorly placed. If he had of been focused on the progress of the sport rather than the progress of individual riders then the mess that the sport is in would never have occurred. Now he has to dig himself out of the hole. Unfortunately, by revoking the rookie rule to ensure the movement of his next super star straight to the top he has proven that he is still not smart enough to dig straight up and out but instead has just continued to trench side ways. This sideways trenching will with out doubt undermine the foundations of WSBK, destroying it as he goes.