500 cc

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phleg @ Apr 16 2008, 09:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>While I agree, the NR500 was built in the early 80's wasn't it? 4 strokes have taken a HUGE leap since then.

Huge leaps ..... and a lot of it due to the fact that 4 strokes where virtually forced on racers as fuel efficiency became paramount.

engines are far more "oversquare" now and look at a picture of the pistons on the NR .... huge skirts .... never see pistons like that any more ... and somehow they have managed to achieve what they were try ing to with the valving on the NR, in a circular pistoned engine nowadays.

I was more thinking though that rather than diesel ... bio-produced ethanols may be the path for future motogp development ..... its such a small change to run on ethanol ... it can be done at home even. But the power drop is huge so I wonder if we will see 1200's in motogp if ethanol ever happens?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 16 2008, 01:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Huge leaps ..... and a lot of it due to the fact that 4 strokes where virtually forced on racers as fuel efficiency became paramount.

engines are far more "oversquare" now and look at a picture of the pistons on the NR .... huge skirts .... never see pistons like that any more ... and somehow they have managed to achieve what they were try ing to with the valving on the NR, in a circular pistoned engine nowadays.

I was more thinking though that rather than diesel ... bio-produced ethanols may be the path for future motogp development ..... its such a small change to run on ethanol ... it can be done at home even. But the power drop is huge so I wonder if we will see 1200's in motogp if ethanol ever happens?
over square engines is the way to get higher rev ceilings that are needed and shorter skirts due to reducing reciprocating mass because of this high rev ceiling.
i agree with you that bio methanol is the way forward.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Apr 16 2008, 10:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>over square engines is the way to get higher rev ceilings that are needed and shorter skirts due to reducing reciprocating mass because of this high rev ceiling.
i agree with you that bio methanol is the way forward.

Not methanol .... I think they are settling on Ethanol as it is so easy to produce ( seems to be the wat that is already marketed here in mix fuels ) ..... well in the quantities needed for running the vehicles of a population. We get 10% ethanol fuels here at the pump so really its not a far cry to produce enough to run an engine on it I guess. 10% fuel is noticeable in a car, but not so much in noticeable power .... you just see it as fuel economy goes worse ) I tried 100% on a "mucker" engine I have here and first impressions a few years back now were ..... its hopeless .... it would not start cold on it ..... but if started on petrol and warmed it ran .... and revved ..... but was useless for power. But that was a crap engine so I assume that high tech engines in big capacities would be bearable.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 16 2008, 02:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Not methanol .... I think they are settling on Ethanol as it is so easy to produce ( seems to be the wat that is already marketed here in mix fuels ) ..... well in the quantities needed for running the vehicles of a population. We get 10% ethanol fuels here at the pump so really its not a far cry to produce enough to run an engine on it I guess. 10% fuel is noticeable in a car, but not so much in noticeable power .... you just see it as fuel economy goes worse ) I tried 100% on a "mucker" engine I have here and first impressions a few years back now were ..... its hopeless .... it would not start cold on it ..... but if started on petrol and warmed it ran .... and revved ..... but was useless for power. But that was a crap engine so I assume that high tech engines in big capacities would be bearable.
we dont get any bio fuels that i know of in the uk so cant talk from any personal experience to be honest.
i seem to remember from way back in my college days that a lot of bikes in india run on alcohol and these engines needed to be jetted for a lot more air in the mixture than would be needed for a conventional petrol engine. interesting subject and i would be interested in reading about it.

why Ethanol and not methonal ? pure methonal is already used in race engines.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Apr 16 2008, 03:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>we dont get any bio fuels that i know of in the uk so cant talk from any personal experience to be honest.
i seem to remember from way back in my college days that a lot of bikes in india run on alcohol and these engines needed to be jetted for a lot more air in the mixture than would be needed for a conventional petrol engine. interesting subject and i would be interested in reading about it.

why Ethanol and not methonal ? pure methonal is already used in race engines.

Or the oposite, much more fuel?
My guess is that Ethanol end Methanol are quite similar, but got no facts on this.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Apr 16 2008, 11:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>we dont get any bio fuels that i know of in the uk so cant talk from any personal experience to be honest.
i seem to remember from way back in my college days that a lot of bikes in india run on alcohol and these engines needed to be jetted for a lot more air in the mixture than would be needed for a conventional petrol engine. interesting subject and i would be interested in reading about it.

The jetting requires larger jets ( not sure if thats what you meant by needs jetting for more air?? ) ... but even mixes up to 50% I have found run in a small Honda engine I have here ..... not as good in a two stroke .... But "back in the day" I raced a Yamaha 250 ( premix ), in dirt track, for a guy and he had converted it to alchohol but got injured before he got to ride it so I got the ride to help sort the jetting .... the jets were massive and it used massively more volume of fuel ...... I remember them changing the main jet between rides and I had a look at the jet and was amazed at wat seemed a bore big enough to fit a coat hanger wire through ( about say > 1.8mm ( can't rememeber the no. )) but it was more like a nozzle than a jet ........ ANd the funny thing was the engine ran so cool .... I expected it to get just as hot as one would have thought it was putting out more power ... so more heat .... but I think the achohols burn in a different manner .... can't remember much on the reason for it ... maybe a chemo on here might remember??

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Apr 16 2008, 11:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>why Ethanol and not methonal ? pure methonal is already used in race engines.


I think it goes back to Ethane has more energy to release given that it has two carbon atoms to break out of a molecule ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkane

But I also think that the production of Ethanol is easier from plant sugars.??

Whatever the case seems ethanol is the go here in everyday fuels ... sure you can still get methanol ... buts its remained purely for drag use here these days. Never even see folk playing with it in other codes any more.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Apr 16 2008, 02:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>we dont get any bio fuels that i know of in the uk so cant talk from any personal experience to be honest.
i seem to remember from way back in my college days that a lot of bikes in india run on alcohol and these engines needed to be jetted for a lot more air in the mixture than would be needed for a conventional petrol engine. interesting subject and i would be interested in reading about it.

why Ethanol and not methonal ? pure methonal is already used in race engines.

yesterday news on bio fuel additive in petrol on the bbc website.... (lost link , sorry)
Plenty bio diesel available in uk....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Apr 16 2008, 10:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>over square engines is the way to get higher rev ceilings that are needed and shorter skirts due to reducing reciprocating mass because of this high rev ceiling.
i agree with you that bio methanol is the way forward.

One huge reason they went low skirts now was the use of non-Cast iron liners for cylinder bores .... Nickosil etc. Meant they could get friction down so the went even further with reducing that sliding friction. I know in a 125 even the difference between a Nickosill and CI bore is about 3hp .... so I assume rediced skirts are worth a bit too. But folk have aways know the piston skirt thing as that was a common mod. .... I used to allways cut the sides of the skirts ( inder the gudgeons ) and open ip holes ( piston port ) back i the 70's and the bikes performance increased noticeably. ( No dyno figures back then though ... )

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chockmoose @ Apr 16 2008, 02:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>yesterday news on bio fuel additive in petrol on the bbc website.... (lost link , sorry)
Plenty bio diesel available in uk....
where ?
there aiming for 2% bio fuels over the next 3 years i think and 5% over the next 10 years or so, meaning an insignificant amount. i would love to use bio diesel but there is nowhere i know of that sells it. i live in southern england.

I think Brazil is one of the leaders in ethanol usage ..... maybe we will see a Sth American track back in it too then.

In Brazil I think they have achoice to run complete achohol at the moment, and the tarrifs etc. are set such as to encourage its use.

In some countires, at present, most Bio diesel seems to be home produced doesn't it? Thats another of the bio diesel benefits it can be made by the layman.

The only thing that seems to be argued against bio diesel at the moment is that it raises the price of food crops by competing to procure the grain.

If they did go biodiesel though the GP's would smell like a fish and chip shop!!

Ethanol burns nice and clean ....

Another thing to keep in mind about Ethanol is that the land required to grow corn leads to more clearing of rain forests and wetlands...which is bad for the environment. Ethanol is not the solution.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr. Shupe @ Apr 17 2008, 03:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Another thing to keep in mind about Ethanol is that the land required to grow corn leads to more clearing of rain forests and wetlands...which is bad for the environment. Ethanol is not the solution.

+1!
Bio-fuel is complete lunacy. The sums don't add up and they certainly won't save us from climate change.
Cue: shouty climate change deniers.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (howard @ Apr 17 2008, 03:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>+1!
Bio-fuel is complete lunacy. The sums don't add up and they certainly won't save us from climate change.
Cue: shouty climate change deniers.
They're not lunacy, strictly speaking. They're just a bad idea as currently envisioned.
Biofuel from waste products isn't necessarily unreasonable, nor is biofuel derived from "crops" grown on land that's traditionally non-arable, provided efficiency can be brought up. They're certainly not a savior and probably can't really replace traditional sources of energy but could be useful in limited roles.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (howard @ Apr 17 2008, 09:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>+1!
Bio-fuel is complete lunacy. The sums don't add up and they certainly won't save us from climate change.
Cue: shouty climate change deniers.
check this out, mabe this is the way forward, i think dicky branson is looking into it for his aircraft.

http://www.greenfuelonline.com/gf_files/algaefuel.pdf