2024 World Superbike - Round 4 (Finally) - Misano

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Saffa said:
Who has NOT been found missing on Yamahas in recent years? You are making a judgement based on a one off test on a crap bike which he was not at all familiar with. Of course the results were not going to be great?
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It wasn't a race against other bikes, it was a race within one brand.
I am not making a judgement, I'm just saying that Yamaha didn't fancy him after seeing his performance.

I like the lad, so hoping he stays in WSBK, and continues to stoprak
 
I haven't had the time to follow as many racing series as I would like to, but Toprak's performance on the bike is, as everyone says, phenomenal. Not a single other BMW rider has been on the podium this year. If it wasn't for Toprak, it would look like the bike is substandard.

Toprak has now won six out of twelve races in the season so far. And nobody else has won more than two. Seasons can turn on a dime, and the three race wins at Misano could be a bit of a flash in the pan. But, even without last weekend, he still would have more race wins than anyone else.
 
Sennas_Caress said:
It wasn't a race against other bikes, it was a race within one brand.
I am not making a judgement, I'm just saying that Yamaha didn't fancy him after seeing his performance.

I like the lad, so hoping he stays in WSBK, and continues to stoprak
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I get what you're saying, but it was still a one off test and his first time on the bike. Also his first time on that track, if I'm not mistaken.
I do think it will be a blow for WSBK if he goes, but if it's his goal to give MotoGP a crack I think he should go for it. You only live once!
The rumor that BMW might be joining in 2027 won't go away, so maybe a BMW entry with Toprak being one of the riders isn't too far fetched....
 
Saffa said:
I get what you're saying, but it was still a one off test and his first time on the bike. Also his first time on that track, if I'm not mistaken.
I do think it will be a blow for WSBK if he goes, but if it's his goal to give MotoGP a crack I think he should go for it. You only live once!
The rumor that BMW might be joining in 2027 won't go away, so maybe a BMW entry with Toprak being one of the riders isn't too far fetched....
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Even with the might of BMW, I wouldn't expect them to be challenging for the championship right away. It might be best for both Toprak and BMW if Toprak goes there first, and gains experience on other bikes while BMW is building up and entering.

I can't see Toprak signing on for 2025 while it's still unknown if he will win the WSBK championship this year. So, 2026 at the earliest. Still one year before BMW's earliest (that I can see) entry, and years before (I would predict) BMW could be competitive.
 
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Sennas_Caress said:
Out of the current WSBK field, you have plenty of riders who've been in the MotoGP class, and none that has gone the other way. That could mean the best riders are not in this series, so the level of competition would be higher.

What Yamaha was looking at was both a comparison to their riders, and some form of development throughout the sessions. They were hampered by the weather at some point as I recall. The noises coming out of Yamaha however was that they were underwhelmed by Toprak's performance.

I do believe that he will be able to score points on a regular basis, out of the blocks. I can't see him being a race winner though. Not with the level MotoGP is at the moment, and with the difference between the machines. Even if you factor in the rule changes coming for 27, he'll be up against a Marquez, Bagnaia, Martin, Acosta and more. All that, after a decade in the non-prototype series.

I hope he stays and creates a legacy in WSBK. He is a brilliant draw for the series.L should have kept him for longer and got him to sort the bike for them,
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Sennas_Caress said:
Out of the current WSBK field, you have plenty of riders who've been in the MotoGP class, and none that has gone the other way. That could mean the best riders are not in this series, so the level of competition would be higher.

What Yamaha was looking at was both a comparison to their riders, and some form of development throughout the sessions. They were hampered by the weather at some point as I recall. The noises coming out of Yamaha however was that they were underwhelmed by Toprak's performance.

I do believe that he will be able to score points on a regular basis, out of the blocks. I can't see him being a race winner though. Not with the level MotoGP is at the moment, and with the difference between the machines. Even if you factor in the rule changes coming for 27, he'll be up against a Marquez, Bagnaia, Martin, Acosta and more. All that, after a decade in the non-prototype series.

I hope he stays and creates a legacy in WSBK. He is a brilliant draw for the series.
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Maybe they should have kept him longer and got him to sort the bike, their incumbent moto GP guys weren’t doing much of a job of that last year.

The thing is I believe he wants to try motoGP, and while I haven’t been following WSBK closely reading between the lines Yamaha scuppering his GP prospects may have been a factor in his departure.

If BMW are to enter MotoGP, which I will believe when I see it, they could do worse than Toprak imo. By your argument the current moto 2 riders might as well stay in moto 2 and add lustre there, I don’t think any of them are challenging the current talent in the premier class anytime soon either.
 
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michaelm said:
If BMW are to enter MotoGP, which I will believe when I see it, they could do worse than Toprak imo. By your argument the current moto 2 riders might as well stay in moto 2 and add lustre there, I don’t think any of them are challenging the current talent in the premier class anytime soon either.
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Personally I consider the jump from Moto2 to MotoGP less than from WSBK.

I'd also believe that a young rider coming through the MotoGP classes have more to gain by going to the top class, than a rider steeped in WSBK, inching towards 30.

I understand Toprak wants to try MotoGP, and he has deserved the right to try.

From a fan viewpoint, I'd like him to remain in WSBK.

What been said though is that HRC have him as one of the rolles of their 2027 dices. Either he does get that chance, or one with another brand, I don't see the clear advantages of him being in a factory and developing a bike. Just as Marquez, he is that special.
 
Sennas_Caress said:
Personally I consider the jump from Moto2 to MotoGP less than from WSBK.

I'd also believe that a young rider coming through the MotoGP classes have more to gain by going to the top class, than a rider steeped in WSBK, inching towards 30.

I understand Toprak wants to try MotoGP, and he has deserved the right to try.

From a fan viewpoint, I'd like him to remain in WSBK.

What been said though is that HRC have him as one of the rolles of their 2027 dices. Either he does get that chance, or one with another brand, I don't see the clear advantages of him being in a factory and developing a bike. Just as Marquez, he is that special.
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As you are no doubt aware in the olden days superbikes were probably a better background for 500 GP bike racing than the 125s or 250s were.

These days I don’t really see why moto 2 should be a better preparation than superbikes either.

The thing is what you have already mentioned in regard to the premier class, the talent level. The moto 1 and moto 2 guys have been identified and put on the path from their mid teenage years, the Red Bull programme etc., and moto 2 is very likely to have more up and coming talents than WSBK, often a place to which GP riders retire at the end of their careers. It is possible that Toprak comes from left field, I don’t know about his early career but being from Turkey he may not have been in a place to get into the precursor series, and the connection with Kenan Sofaglu might have set him on the WSBK path. You are probably correct though, it would be very hard to make a splash against the current established talent level in motogp, and the up and coming Acosta who may be a Rossi or Marquez level talent, starting at age 30 or more, by which age MM and Rossi had won 6 and 7 premier class titles having started winning premier class titles in their early 20s.
 
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michaelm said:
As you are no doubt aware in the olden days superbikes were probably a better background for 500 GP bike racing than the 125s or 250s were.

These days I don’t really see why moto 2 should be a better preparation than superbikes either.

The thing is what you have already mentioned in regard to the premier class, the talent level. The moto 1 and moto 2 guys have been identified and put on the path from their mid teenage years, the Red Bull programme etc., and moto 2 is very likely to have more up and coming talents than WSBK, often a place to which GP riders retire at the end of their careers. It is possible that Toprak comes from left field, I don’t know about his early career but being from Turkey he may not have been in a place to get into the precursor series, and the connection with Kenan Sofaglu might have set him on the WSBK path. You are probably correct though, it would be very hard to make a splash against the current established talent level in motogp, and the up and coming Acosta who may be a Rossi or Marquez level talent, starting at age 30 or more, by which age MM and Rossi had won 6 and 7 premier class titles having started winning premier class titles in their early 20s.
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Moto2 does seem to work well as preparation for MotoGP. While there is still some adaptation, a fair number of Moto2 riders seem to step up to MotoGP and be not too far off very quickly. The current example is Acosta, but there are others such as Marquez. Both Quartararo and Bagnaia required two years to adapt however.

I personally think that's not so much due to the bikes, but to everything else. Moto2 ride on the same tracks, share the same paddock, and get an opportunity to mix with the MotoGP people and teams. It's possible that this all contributes to Moto2 riders being more ready for graduation to MotoGP.

Razgatlioglu started his career in Europe, though quite early on switched to riding in superstock classes and immediately shone. I don't know what the different skills are for superbike versus gp racing, but Razgatlioglu seems to have those superbike skills. Given what is happening in Turkey, I think that if Razgatlioglu wanted to stay on the MotoGP route, he would have had the opportunity to.
 
Sennas_Caress said:
The Bonovo team is supposedly finished, and will not be racing in 2025. That might mean that the guys heading home to the UK and the US.

Great ride by Toprak again. If Bautista can't find back his grip and turning, Razgatlioglu will be clearing off during the hectic summer period.
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Good intel. Official announcement from Bonovo was today on the world sbk website. Did they say something in the sessions that I missed? or do you have your ear to the ground?

Superbike appears to have a similar arrangement to MotoGP with a factory (index) team and a satellite squad. If BMW remain in superbike, they may need to find another team. Maybe a UK outfit will step-up or maybe BMW will run 2 teams. Feels like something big is in the works for World Superbike, particularly with Liberty's purchase and grand prix teams commenting about the level of bike performance.
 
AnnoyingTwit said:
Moto2 does seem to work well as preparation for MotoGP. While there is still some adaptation, a fair number of Moto2 riders seem to step up to MotoGP and be not too far off very quickly. The current example is Acosta, but there are others such as Marquez. Both Quartararo and Bagnaia required two years to adapt however.

I personally think that's not so much due to the bikes, but to everything else. Moto2 ride on the same tracks, share the same paddock, and get an opportunity to mix with the MotoGP people and teams. It's possible that this all contributes to Moto2 riders being more ready for graduation to MotoGP.

Razgatlioglu started his career in Europe, though quite early on switched to riding in superstock classes and immediately shone. I don't know what the different skills are for superbike versus gp racing, but Razgatlioglu seems to have those superbike skills. Given what is happening in Turkey, I think that if Razgatlioglu wanted to stay on the MotoGP route, he would have had the opportunity to.
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Imo, Toprak is large in stature and has excellent bike control. Those are positive attributes, particularly after the combined minimum weight rule, because it's easier to muscle around heavy production bikes, and it's possible to ride around the limitations of a production bike.

MotoGP is prototype. The teams are trying to avoid riding around issues and the rules are not kind to larger riders. In 2027 the front fairing will be even narrower, which might not help Toprak, even if the rules favor the rider.
 
mylexicon said:
Good intel. Official announcement from Bonovo was today on the world sbk website. Did they say something in the sessions that I missed? or do you have your ear to the ground?

Superbike appears to have a similar arrangement to MotoGP with a factory (index) team and a satellite squad. If BMW remain in superbike, they may need to find another team. Maybe a UK outfit will step-up or maybe BMW will run 2 teams. Feels like something big is in the works for World Superbike, particularly with Liberty's purchase and grand prix teams commenting about the level of bike performance.
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I heard it during one of the sessions, from one of the commentators. Can't remember who it was.
 
mylexicon said:
Imo, Toprak is large in stature and has excellent bike control. Those are positive attributes, particularly after the combined minimum weight rule, because it's easier to muscle around heavy production bikes, and it's possible to ride around the limitations of a production bike.

MotoGP is prototype. The teams are trying to avoid riding around issues and the rules are not kind to larger riders. In 2027 the front fairing will be even narrower, which might not help Toprak, even if the rules favor the rider.
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Even Scott Redding had his day as I can remember with 2 GP podiums in an era where things most certainly did not favor a rider of his stature.

Toprak is on another level at least where superbikes are concerned. On paper, Bulega and Bautista should be wiping the floor with him...but that's not been the case.

I could see him doing well with the right sort of ride in GP. I don't think that test he was given on the M1 was particularly fair as I felt it was stacked against him big time. I think just by virtue of how great a braker he is, that takes a huge part of the GP equation out of the picture since I feel that is the most important skill to have at that level. But I guess we will find out if BMW decides to enter. Toprak as a 2027 GP rider would be fascinating if nothing else. I wouldn't bet on him to win a race by any means, but I think he could give a good show.
 
AnnoyingTwit said:
Moto2 does seem to work well as preparation for MotoGP. While there is still some adaptation, a fair number of Moto2 riders seem to step up to MotoGP and be not too far off very quickly. The current example is Acosta, but there are others such as Marquez. Both Quartararo and Bagnaia required two years to adapt however.

I personally think that's not so much due to the bikes, but to everything else. Moto2 ride on the same tracks, share the same paddock, and get an opportunity to mix with the MotoGP people and teams. It's possible that this all contributes to Moto2 riders being more ready for graduation to MotoGP.

Razgatlioglu started his career in Europe, though quite early on switched to riding in superstock classes and immediately shone. I don't know what the different skills are for superbike versus gp racing, but Razgatlioglu seems to have those superbike skills. Given what is happening in Turkey, I think that if Razgatlioglu wanted to stay on the MotoGP route, he would have had the opportunity to.
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Yes, I looked it up, he did ride Red Bull rookies as a 16 and 17 old before switching to super stock. I still think being from Turkey might have made it harder for him. The large stature thing is very salient though, and there isn’t much he can do about that if he goes to gp racing.

I agree with familiarity with the circus and circuits being an advantage for riders who come through moto 2, but don’t see how the actual moto 2 bikes are a superior preparation. If a rider excels in moto 2 it is against the best young talent in the world who have been identified as teenagers and put on the path to the premier class, so a higher bar than world super sport and probably WSBK at least talent wise as I said previously.
 
Sennas_Caress said:
Kenan Sofuoğlu has been the biggest hindrance for Toprak not moving to MotoGP. He makes too much money off his pupil through sponsors and factory deals in WSBK than he would have if Toprak were a non-Factory, non-Championship winning rider in MotoGP.
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Fully agree with this. In fairness, he did do a lot for Toprak, but I do think he is being controlled too much at this point. Any opportunity that might have been missed in the past is only because it didn't suit Kenan (this is only based on my opinion, no facts of course)
 
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Toprak is now the clear championship favorite after sweeping the weekend at Ducati's home track.

I think BMW just has to join MotoGP in 2027, SBK is not nearly getting the attention it deserves and doesn't have a great variety of locations (Balaton Park has also been dropped and replaced by Estoril). From a marketing standpoint the brand won't really be noticed if they continue to just run SBK, even if they win championships.
 
Sennas_Caress said:
I thought BMW didn't give much attention to racing, in general, as their sales were from mainly GS adventure bikes and the K class tourers
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It's seems nowadays that Manufacturers in MotoGP are more about branding than the sale of sports bikes. Honda is the classic example using their MotoGP status to sell millions of tiny bikes in SE Asia
 

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