2023 Austrian GP

Gaz · Aug 23, 2023

MdubSTYLIE said:
This is what I am saying. Jack isn't making the KTM better he is making Brad better.

I suspect that he is helping KTM in ways we cannot see as it is very difficult to measure ................ experience.

Sure people will question Jack's input and feedback but the truth is without access to data we do not know but that is not of which I speak.

What I mean is his experience at Ducati in terms of process. What worked and what did not. How Ducati approached certain aspects of their bike's performance. Think process, procedure and methodology that has assisted in taking Ducati to the heights they are at today. It may also be as simple as Jack bringing a calmer face and persona that has helped the team improve in areas held back previously by personalities in the garage.

And lets not forget Guidotti in this as well

Things do not need to be about measurable technical advances but often the 'off track' stuff is more critical in terms of advancements for a team.

That all said, no doubt from a Binder perspective that having someone around with whom you are comfortable and good mates with, as well as someone who has many similarities and is a helper not a hindrance will help you unlock your true potential (and IMO, we are only just starting to see Binder's true potential)

Havey · Aug 23, 2023

I think this may explain why Jack's riding has been ......... for the last two meetings.
Jack Miller plans return to Ducati-style set up, ‘like putting on an old boot’

mikesbytes · Aug 23, 2023

Perhaps a significant portion of Honda signing Zarco is based on what happened at KTM with Millers signing ?

warthog1 · Aug 23, 2023

Great posts Gaz

Gaz · Aug 23, 2023

mikesbytes said:
Perhaps a significant portion of Honda signing Zarco is based on what happened at KTM with Millers signing ?

I do so want to say yes based on the experience Zarco could bring in terms of other equipment, but I also have to admit that this would be a loss of face for HRC who have always refused to consider that they need help to improve rather than be the true leader (the fact they are seeking concessions shows that loss of face is a thought in their office).

The other side would be Puig would also have to accept and acknowledge a bigger loss of face for all the same reasons and that he has been talked of as the saviour and to be fair, he does seemingly live and thrive on the reputation.

Bigger thing for me is whether Zarco is the right man for the gig and will HRC provide the same equipment to the team?

mikesbytes · Aug 23, 2023

Gaz said:
I do so want to say yes based on the experience Zarco could bring in terms of other equipment, but I also have to admit that this would be a loss of face for HRC who have always refused to consider that they need help to improve rather than be the true leader (the fact they are seeking concessions shows that loss of face is a thought in their office).

The other side would be Puig would also have to accept and acknowledge a bigger loss of face for all the same reasons and that he has been talked of as the saviour and to be fair, he does seemingly live and thrive on the reputation.

Bigger thing for me is whether Zarco is the right man for the gig and will HRC provide the same equipment to the team?

Whether they capatalise on Zarco's experience if a different speculation to the reason for signing him. My guess as to what will happen appears to be similar to yours

MdubSTYLIE · Aug 23, 2023

Gaz said:
I suspect that he is helping KTM in ways we cannot see as it is very difficult to measure ................ experience.

Sure people will question Jack's input and feedback but the truth is without access to data we do not know but that is not of which I speak.

What I mean is his experience at Ducati in terms of process. What worked and what did not. How Ducati approached certain aspects of their bike's performance. Think process, procedure and methodology that has assisted in taking Ducati to the heights they are at today. It may also be as simple as Jack bringing a calmer face and persona that has helped the team improve in areas held back previously by personalities in the garage.

And lets not forget Guidotti in this as well

Things do not need to be about measurable technical advances but often the 'off track' stuff is more critical in terms of advancements for a team.

That all said, no doubt from a Binder perspective that having someone around with whom you are comfortable and good mates with, as well as someone who has many similarities and is a helper not a hindrance will help you unlock your true potential (and IMO, we are only just starting to see Binder's true potential)

Its not that I don't think Jack is helpful for the development of the KTM. I look at it like this, say you want to have a house built. You have ideas of what you want the house to look like. So you have someone draw up blue prints and more people the buy the material and build the house. That house could come out looking like your dream house or an ugly piece of ..... Who's fault is it? It could be the designer or the builders or even both. All the rider can do is provide good information for the development team to create. I think Jacks style could be good for information or testing but that doesn't mean they can create a good bike out of it. Thats on the engineers. So its not just Jack I don't give any riders much credit for development. There are riders who's information is more useful than others just like someone who wants a house built might be full of wild ideas or logical well thought ideas. But the people who create the bike deserve the credit. Frank Loyd Wright gets credit for the homes he built not the people he built them for.

#22 · Aug 23, 2023

Engineers are criminally underrated

Mrpurple · Aug 23, 2023

Perhaps the Honda and Yamaha simply cannot ride on the tires as they are now...

Its the simplest explanation, because MM sure as hell hasn't lost his drive.

MdubSTYLIE · Aug 23, 2023

Mrpurple said:
Perhaps the Honda and Yamaha simply cannot ride on the tires as they are now...

Its the simplest explanation, because MM sure as hell hasn't lost his drive.

I believe this to be true. When the tire carcass was made harder was the beginning of their downfall. The harder tire carcass helped the bikes with lots of downforce that are heavy on the front under breaking. We all know that the strength of the yamaha was corner speed and Marc too for that matter.

Havey · Aug 23, 2023

The interesting part of the race for technos was the way Ducati neutralised KTM’s main advantage of acceleration off the line. As Brad said to Pecco ” you ....... you did something”, and it worked.

So way I see it, is that when they are coming up to the grid to start, they brake hard to lock the front down, then lower the back ride height ready to start, well what they are doing now is when they start to let the clutch out, they also release the rear ride height, so that as the rear goes up it pushes the rear tyre down to increase the grip, so that Ducati can use a bit more of their prodigious torque in that first second off the line.

Certainly worked well, but as this won’t be hard for the KTM team to duplicate, they will follow with the same, and that will cancel out the Ducati advantage, to leave KTM with their ‘unique torque feed into the back wheel’ to have the advantage again.

I can't wait to see the next episode. (big grin).

Gaz · Aug 24, 2023

MdubSTYLIE said:
Its not that I don't think Jack is helpful for the development of the KTM. I look at it like this, say you want to have a house built. You have ideas of what you want the house to look like. So you have someone draw up blue prints and more people the buy the material and build the house. That house could come out looking like your dream house or an ugly piece of ..... Who's fault is it? It could be the designer or the builders or even both. All the rider can do is provide good information for the development team to create. I think Jacks style could be good for information or testing but that doesn't mean they can create a good bike out of it. Thats on the engineers. So its not just Jack I don't give any riders much credit for development. There are riders who's information is more useful than others just like someone who wants a house built might be full of wild ideas or logical well thought ideas. But the people who create the bike deserve the credit. Frank Loyd Wright gets credit for the homes he built not the people he built them for.

I totally agree and have said for a long time that riders do not develop a bike (hell, sure you recall some of the 'debates' from years back on that very topic - some got fiesty) but I woudl also add that a different riding style can lead to technical changes driven by engineers based on outcomes of data.

May be to simplistic but riders are 'feel' oriented and it is the data that supports the riders 'feeling' that should drive the development. As we have seen across the last decade, some riders or even teams have followed what riders want and then have taken significant time to see a positive return, sometimes no return.

Mrpurple said:
Perhaps the Honda and Yamaha simply cannot ride on the tires as they are now...

Its the simplest explanation, because MM sure as hell hasn't lost his drive.

We have seen for a while that the single manufacturer may not be the ideal situation and it may be fair to say that focus is on the 'show' so they have a vested interest in the results by way of reputation to uphold, and sometimes associating with a brand or rider is not the worst decision.

If we returned to multiple manufacturers (how I long for those days) I suspect we woudl see a vastly different range of results and yes, MM woudl again be a front runner. As you say, MM has not forgotten how to go fast and nor has he yet had it the drive beaten from him by the recalcitrant Honda

Gaz · Aug 24, 2023

MdubSTYLIE said:
I believe this to be true. When the tire carcass was made harder was the beginning of their downfall. The harder tire carcass helped the bikes with lots of downforce that are heavy on the front under breaking. We all know that the strength of the yamaha was corner speed and Marc too for that matter.

Which begs the question - is it tyre or downforce/aerodynamics?

They are stuck with a single tyre supplier for a few more years as i understand it so, is removal of the downforce a possible direction to explore?

Personally, I find so many of these current machines (MotoGP and the flow-on to standard road bikes) to be such an UGLY era. The bikes have no character today the appearance and look but instead look like something out of a Matchbox Transformer set of toys.

I do wonder how much difference aero removal would make in a few ways.

MdubSTYLIE · Aug 24, 2023

Gaz said:
I totally agree and have said for a long time that riders do not develop a bike (hell, sure you recall some of the 'debates' from years back on that very topic - some got fiesty) but I woudl also add that a different riding style can lead to technical changes driven by engineers based on outcomes of data.

May be to simplistic but riders are 'feel' oriented and it is the data that supports the riders 'feeling' that should drive the development. As we have seen across the last decade, some riders or even teams have followed what riders want and then have taken significant time to see a positive return, sometimes no return.

I will never forget those discussions. They definitely got heated. The new members will never know the amount of craziness that went on here. I have always said riders like Stoner and Marquez are horrible for development because their freakish style does not translate to good data. I said the reasons Stoners first year on ducati and back at honda were his best was for that reason. The way Stoner rode the garbage pale of a bike his first year at ducati was never matched by any rider. Only he was able to get the best over an overpowered loose rocketship of a bike.

MdubSTYLIE · Aug 24, 2023

Gaz said:
Which begs the question - is it tyre or downforce/aerodynamics?

They are stuck with a single tyre supplier for a few more years as i understand it so, is removal of the downforce a possible direction to explore?

Personally, I find so many of these current machines (MotoGP and the flow-on to standard road bikes) to be such an UGLY era. The bikes have no character today the appearance and look but instead look like something out of a Matchbox Transformer set of toys.

I do wonder how much difference aero removal would make in a few ways.

The downforce/aero is the reason for the need of the current tire. If they got rid of aero the racing would instantly be better. There is no drafting on the current bikes because of this. Hell they can't even pressure other riders by staying close to them because the front tire will overheat. This is due to downforce putting more heat on the front tire due and the lack of airflow causing it to overheat. Similar to a wet tire on a dry track. I get it. I understand thats the direction gp has gone but it has made the sport less enjoyable.

#22 · Aug 24, 2023

The extreme front grip generated by the tyre and aero has also negated the advantage of riders like Marquez who could push the front through feel more than other riders. Stoner would also likely struggle in this era too, because it has taken his strength away.

The problem with providing more grip, is the limit is finer. That means when it goes, you get no warning. A perfect example of this is Pecco in Austin when he washed the front and said 'it wasn't his fault'. I think he worded it wrong, and the correct statement would have been "I had no warning'.

Go drive a vehicle with harder or older tyres and you'll get more slide, but more feel. The put supersofts on it and watch as you go faster, but get no warning when they break away.

Keshav · Aug 25, 2023

ApriliaRS250 said:
I can't remember having watched a more boring race than this one. What I can remember is the commentators talking about tire pressure and dirty air and .... just as the commentators of F1 did, when formula 1 started to get unwatchable. I hope this does not happen to motogp although it pretty much looks like that'll be the direction things are going

With the races increasingly like those of the 800 era, they are probably trying (and failing) to spice up dull races. The commentators are not exactly Oxford English majors. They have a limited vocabulary, a small bag of verbal ticks to draw on as it were. And lets face it, they are commenting on the fly, improvising in the moment. They would do well to listen to the work of the great, laconic baseball commentators and learn to speak in small bites containing real insight with gaps of silence, instead of filling up every second with the sound of their voices as if they were being paid by the word.

mylexicon · Aug 25, 2023

MdubSTYLIE said:
The downforce/aero is the reason for the need of the current tire. If they got rid of aero the racing would instantly be better. There is no drafting on the current bikes because of this. Hell they can't even pressure other riders by staying close to them because the front tire will overheat. This is due to downforce putting more heat on the front tire due and the lack of airflow causing it to overheat. Similar to a wet tire on a dry track. I get it. I understand thats the direction gp has gone but it has made the sport less enjoyable.

I think most of GP's challenges can be solved by unraveling the compounding effects created by aero and ride height. Those systems working together are fundamentally changing the sport.

If you get rid of aero, acceleration and trap speeds will come down a bit because the wings aren't holding down the front wheel. Braking distances will increase (further reducing top trap speed) because the wings are not dragging in the braking zone. Those changes would significantly improve the racing by giving riders more control over corner entry lines and acceleration on exit. However, I think the ride height device may be more important. The ride height can basically lower the CoG of the bike, and put substantially all of the weight on the rear tire, with the help of wheelie control. All of the bikes have the same min weight so the riders are basically just fighting to preserve tire life and get exactly the right lean angle to optimize the contact patch. The ride height can stall the wings and reduce coefficient of drag on the straight, which makes slipstreaming impossible with the current 1000cc engines. The ride height also works to lessen the stoppie characteristics of the bike in the braking zone, which pitches the wings downward, increasing drag in the braking zone.

The ride height device is increasing acceleration out of the corner, increasing the acceleration again by reducing drag coefficient, and then increasing the top trap speed by reducing braking distances allowing for longer acceleration. Obviously, there is a rubber band effect because increasing the top trap speed moves the braking marker backward; however, it still seems like halting all of the additional kinetic energy unleashed by the ride height device is ultimately responsible for baking the front tire.

Aero and ride height. Which is the symptom and which is the disease? Personally, I think they should get rid of both, but I think ride height is the disease. It's probably possible to make a case that aero is the real disease since it arrived first on the scene. Or did it? The 500s of the early 90s were actually playing around with ride height. But what about dustbin fairings nearly killing the sport in the 50s? Have fun trying to unravel this century-old ball of yarn!

PRS717 · Aug 25, 2023

Keshav said:
With the races increasingly like those of the 800 era, they are probably trying (and failing) to spice up dull races. The commentators are not exactly Oxford English majors. They have a limited vocabulary, a small bag of verbal ticks to draw on as it were. And lets face it, they are commenting on the fly, improvising in the moment. They would do well to listen to the work of the great, laconic baseball commentators and learn to speak in small bites containing real insight with gaps of silence, instead of filling up every second with the sound of their voices as if they were being paid by the word.

Not sure to whom you are referring but Simon Crafar is one of the most linguistically gifted gentlemen in all of sports broadcasting..................................ya know?

MdubSTYLIE · Aug 25, 2023

mylexicon said:
I think most of GP's challenges can be solved by unraveling the compounding effects created by aero and ride height. Those systems working together are fundamentally changing the sport.

If you get rid of aero, acceleration and trap speeds will come down a bit because the wings aren't holding down the front wheel. Braking distances will increase (further reducing top trap speed) because the wings are not dragging in the braking zone. Those changes would significantly improve the racing by giving riders more control over corner entry lines and acceleration on exit. However, I think the ride height device may be more important. The ride height can basically lower the CoG of the bike, and put substantially all of the weight on the rear tire, with the help of wheelie control. All of the bikes have the same min weight so the riders are basically just fighting to preserve tire life and get exactly the right lean angle to optimize the contact patch. The ride height can stall the wings and reduce coefficient of drag on the straight, which makes slipstreaming impossible with the current 1000cc engines. The ride height also works to lessen the stoppie characteristics of the bike in the braking zone, which pitches the wings downward, increasing drag in the braking zone.

The ride height device is increasing acceleration out of the corner, increasing the acceleration again by reducing drag coefficient, and then increasing the top trap speed by reducing braking distances allowing for longer acceleration. Obviously, there is a rubber band effect because increasing the top trap speed moves the braking marker backward; however, it still seems like halting all of the additional kinetic energy unleashed by the ride height device is ultimately responsible for baking the front tire.

Aero and ride height. Which is the symptom and which is the disease? Personally, I think they should get rid of both, but I think ride height is the disease. It's probably possible to make a case that aero is the real disease since it arrived first on the scene. Or did it? The 500s of the early 90s were actually playing around with ride height. But what about dustbin fairings nearly killing the sport in the 50s? Have fun trying to unravel this century-old ball of yarn!

Great post lex. It seems we have a chicken and the egg situation here. I wasn't aware of how much of an effect the ride height has.

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2023 Austrian GP

Gaz

Havey

mikesbytes

warthog1

Gaz

mikesbytes

MdubSTYLIE

#22

Mrpurple

MdubSTYLIE

Havey

Gaz

Gaz

MdubSTYLIE

MdubSTYLIE

#22

Keshav

mylexicon

PRS717

MdubSTYLIE

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