2019 PTT Thailand Chang Int'l - Race Discuss & Chat

povol · Oct 8, 2019

ratdeal said:
If I remember correctly, Lin Jarvis recently stated that Rossi retires when Yamaha management decides he does if Valentino hasn't come to that conclusion himself in due time. They just didn't give an indication of when. I agree that his time has passed and probably did so a number of years ago.

If Lin Jarvis was the CEO of a company the board would have gotten rid of him a long time ago based upon his results. He has overseen the loss of a champion rider, the pandering to another based upon non performance related factors, and the year on year sub standard performance of the team based upon the industry accepted metrics (wins and championships). He has been nicking a wage for years now.

The entire race department needs an overhaul, from the top down.

To his credit ,Lin Jarvis did not want Rossi back in 13 but was overruled by marketing because Yamaha didn’t have a sponsor n 2012, but won the title anyway. Jarvis knew bringing Rossi back would be trouble and was more than happy to continue on with Lorenzo and Spies who got along and was doing well as a team.

povol · Oct 8, 2019

What can you say about Marquez. Beaten up, doesn’t have to win to clinch title, but goes balls out risking further damage because it’s much cooler to be crowned champion while on the top step. Fabio may or may not be the guy to beat Marc. We haven’t seen what happens when you have to finish on the podium and you have to win 4-5 races. When 5-6-7-8th place finishes are not allowed because once you have a couple of of those, you go from being 15-20 points down to 40 down, then he wins 2-3 in a row and buries you.Marc is putting pressure on these guys to be damn near perfect just to have a shot. Most can’t handle it and crack. Rossi cracked, Lorenzo cracked, Dovi has succumbed . Now that Marc has vanquished the strongest list of competitors in the GP era , if the next group of generational talents don’t come soon, you could see Marc reel off 4-5 seasons in a row like this one with 10+ wins and runaway championships.

Hollywood · Oct 8, 2019

Rossiwil retire when Rossi wants to retire, even if Yamaha gave him the axe, he still has the sponsors and the money either for another team or himself.

of the current crop of recent moto2 grads not one has been able to be competitive on a bike that was not an I4 machine (Yamaha, Suzuki). are any combination of those riders/bikes able to take down Marquez?

povol · Oct 8, 2019

Hollywood said:
Rossiwil retire when Rossi wants to retire, even if Yamaha gave him the axe, he still has the sponsors and the money either for another team or himself.

of the current crop of recent moto2 grads not one has been able to be competitive on a bike that was not an I4 machine (Yamaha, Suzuki). are any combination of those riders/bikes able to take down Marquez?

Here is another tidbit of Moto 2 trivia . The class has been around 10 years and not one champion graduate has recorded a win in Moto GP except Marquez . Elías has a win but that was before he went to Moto2.

michaelm · Oct 8, 2019

povol said:
Here is another tidbit of Moto 2 trivia . The class has been around 10 years and not one champion graduate has recorded a win in Moto GP except Marquez . Elías has a win but that was before he went to Moto2.

I guess the talent of Rins and Vinales was recognised and they were signed to the premier class, no reason to think they couldn’t have won moto 2 if they had hung around in that class.

But sure, we may have returned to the situation which applied when the great American super bike riders came to 500 gp racing where the junior classes are perhaps not all that good a preparation for riding in the premier class.

What is also true is that even Marc started on a 125 rather than on what imo are ersatz race bikes in moto 2 and moto 3. MM is of course rather an impediment to anyone who has followed him winning a title.

Mick D · Oct 9, 2019

AJV80 said:
Yeah, Yamaha where in a real rut when Zarco was riding for them. I wonder how much of that impacted his results?

The series really needs someone like Fabio who can take the fight to Marc.

I have yet to see any legitimate evidence that FQ is the one to "take the fight" to MM. Facts/evidence I do see: FQ has shown potential in his first season, not dissimilar to JZ; FQ showed this same potential in RB Rookies cup, then basically disappeared in Moto3/2... I await more evidence.

michaelm · Oct 9, 2019

Mick D said:
I have yet to see any legitimate evidence that FQ is the one to "take the fight" to MM. Facts/evidence I do see: FQ has shown potential in his first season, not dissimilar to JZ; FQ showed this same potential in RB Rookies cup, then basically disappeared in Moto3/2... I await more evidence.

Certainly challenging MM is a huge leap, very few (? any) who have ever ridden are likely on a par with him for talent and drive, and he is now an experienced and mature rider as well.

FQ is not exactly looking like chopped liver against Valentino and Vinales who are also on Yamahas though, so perhaps we at least have some hope for the future where he is concerned.

Keshav · Oct 9, 2019

povol said:
Here is another tidbit of Moto 2 trivia . The class has been around 10 years and not one champion graduate has recorded a win in Moto GP except Marquez . Elías has a win but that was before he went to Moto2.

Conversely - a number of non-championship winners have gone on to stand on the top step of the podium. Fact is, the field is packed with serious talent, and has been said ad infinitum, Marquez has vastly stacked the odds against all other riders, not just Moto 2 champs.

Personally - I think the field being so insanely large in Moto 2 is not especially good for that particular class. Way too much chaos and a greatly reduced chance for riders who don't necessarily qualify well, to come from behind. The field to the rear of the first 10 or 15 riders is a .... show, especially because the equipment is so close spec-wise.

povol · Oct 9, 2019

Keshav said:
Conversely - a number of non-championship winners have gone on to stand on the top step of the podium. Fact is, the field is packed with serious talent, and has been said ad infinitum, Marquez has vastly stacked the odds against all other riders, not just Moto 2 champs.

Personally - I think the field being so insanely large in Moto 2 is not especially good for that particular class. Way too much chaos and a greatly reduced chance for riders who don't necessarily qualify well, to come from behind. The field to the rear of the first 10 or 15 riders is a .... show, especially because the equipment is so close spec-wise.

Yep, the point is, being Moto2 champion and having a dollar will get you a cup of coffee . Most of your Moto2 champs were long time entrants in the category and almost won by attrition whereas even though they didn’t win titles, riders like Vinales showed immediate talent and are moved up. You look at Rabat, Zarco, Morbidelli and this year A Marquez, and they all spent 4-5-6 years in the series before breaking out where Marc, Rins, Vinales all were in the thick immediately . It’s a pretty good indicator, if you have a young rider come into a series and immediately contending, it’s a decent bet that his career is going to be better than the rider who takes 4-5 years to get the situation in his favor.

misfit · Oct 9, 2019

It would seem that this year especially, it has been really difficult for riders to mount a consistent challenge race weekend after weekend. I think it has a lot to do with the tyres and the unique requirements of each weekend, wedded with the characteristics of each bike and each riders comfort. It's amazing how MM and Honda managed to field a competitive package every single race weekend. MM seems to be not only one hell of a rider, but one that works very well with his engineers.

p4p1 · Oct 9, 2019

povol said:
Here is another tidbit of Moto 2 trivia . The class has been around 10 years and not one champion graduate has recorded a win in Moto GP except Marquez . Elías has a win but that was before he went to Moto2.

Ianonne?

Edit misread the part about champion.

Gaz · Oct 9, 2019

povol said:
Here is another tidbit of Moto 2 trivia . The class has been around 10 years and not one champion graduate has recorded a win in Moto GP except Marquez . Elías has a win but that was before he went to Moto2.

Controversial as this thought may be, but it does in many ways support Jack Miller's skipping of that class (IMO).

Sure to race in it may open doors if one is in the eye, but you should tak the opportunity when it comes

povol · Oct 10, 2019

Gaz said:
Controversial as this thought may be, but it does in many ways support Jack Miller's skipping of that class (IMO).

Sure to race in it may open doors if one is in the eye, but you should tak the opportunity when it comes

While I don’t think Miller is championship material , he didn’t hurt himself jumping straight to GP. He has carved out a niche as a reliable top 10 rider who will have a seat for the next 4-6 years

imunderandoverit · Oct 10, 2019

Keshav said:
Don't know that Yamaha need half so much a better bike as they need better riders. After all this time Rossi is past his best-sold-by-date and Vinales still hasn't figured out how to make a good start and gets swamped by less experienced riders.

As to Miller going to Honda; I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. Look at how beat up and dejected all the other Honda riders are. Marquez makes the bike look good. Of course it might just be that Fabs is doing the same with the Yamaha. Personally I'm psyched that a first year rookie on a customer bike is dicing it out regularly with MM. Want to make a Stoner comparison but wouldn't want to jinx the frog.

Honda is kinda what the ducati was. Only stoner could ride it, like marc with the honda. Who could challenge marc and adopt to the honda like him? Cal? Iannone? Lorenzos first year with ducati wasnt ..... And his 2nd wasnt either, apart from missing 4 races he was doing good. Wouldnt say rossi is done. He still finished 3rd last year. This year has been .... for both him and vin. Ducati should switch petrux to miller.

Keshav · Oct 10, 2019

imunderandoverit said:
Honda is kinda what the ducati was. Only stoner could ride it, like marc with the honda. Who could challenge marc and adopt to the honda like him? Cal? Iannone? Lorenzos first year with ducati wasnt ..... And his 2nd wasnt either, apart from missing 4 races he was doing good. Wouldnt say rossi is done. He still finished 3rd last year. This year has been .... for both him and vin. Ducati should switch petrux to miller.

Yes I've made the Honda/MM to Ducati/Stoner comparison as well. 3rd in the championship is a laudable accomplishment . . . for talented riders on satellite bikes and 2nd tier riders limited by injuries; and older riders resisting the call of WSBK.

Riders on top tier factory bikes should have results that improve from season to season, whereas Rossi is straining to get within 4 seconds of a podium finish. He's looking good, compared to Lorenzo who is terribly injured, and Vinales who just can't get it together and Petrucci who is a muddle.

Beyond the baseline raison d'etre of racing: Having a bunch of guys compete and win races, it's equally important mission is to entertain. Watching a 40 year-old just barely beating out (and not always) newbie riders on satellite bikes is not my idea of entertainment. Mind you I'm not being "ageist" I have a few years on Rossi.

Gaz · Oct 12, 2019

povol said:
While I don’t think Miller is championship material , he didn’t hurt himself jumping straight to GP. He has carved out a niche as a reliable top 10 rider who will have a seat for the next 4-6 years

Totally my take.

Never seen him as a world champion in the top class but do feel that he is there or thereabouts in terms of consistent top 10 and feel that he could be a top 5 with the correct management.

He is getting there but still a little to go

evo9 · Oct 12, 2019

povol said:
While I don’t think Miller is championship material , he didn’t hurt himself jumping straight to GP. He has carved out a niche as a reliable top 10 rider who will have a seat for the next 4-6 years

Gaz said:
Totally my take.

Never seen him as a world champion in the top class but do feel that he is there or thereabouts in terms of consistent top 10 and feel that he could be a top 5 with the correct management.

He is getting there but still a little to go

You are both forgetting it was Honda who moved Miller straight to GP. Maybe he would have been better if he had the chance to race in moto 2

Gaz · Oct 14, 2019

evo9 said:
You are both forgetting it was Honda who moved Miller straight to GP. Maybe he would have been better if he had the chance to race in moto 2

Not forgetting at all actually but genuinely believe that you take the chance when it happens and do not wait as one does not know what may come.

We have seen riders across many categories 'wait' for the right opportunity only to have a poor year or the opportunity not arise, ultimately lowering their value or completely missing out, at least Miller is in the main game with the risks taken

yakamoto san · Oct 16, 2019

You only have to look at danny kent. Got offered the pramac ride after winning the moto 3 title. where would he be now if he had took it. Got to be better than having a jail sentence over his head like he has now.

Keshav · Oct 16, 2019

yakamoto san said:
You only have to look at danny kent. Got offered the pramac ride after winning the moto 3 title. where would he be now if he had took it. Got to be better than having a jail sentence over his head like he has now.

If reports are accurate, he never even unsheathed what was supposedly a kitchen knife with a 6 inch blade. A suspended sentence and fine for merely possessing it is, on the face of it, pretty absurd. OTOH - if British laws are that strict, it wasn't very smart of him to be carrying around, circumstances being what they were.

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