2019 PTT Thailand Chang Int'l - Race Discuss & Chat

AJV80 · Oct 6, 2019

ratdeal said:
I was working on the assumption that he would replace Rossi. Vinales can't get his head right with an aging has been as a team mate, let alone a rapid championship challenging kid.

I'm pretty sure if he continues to contest wins and potentially championships whilst the factory team battle just to get the odd podium, there is nothing to stop him driving development in his direction regardless of factory or satellite status. As has been proven historically (Gibernau for eg) being the number one rider need not require one to have a seat in the factory squad. Whatever keeps the rider happiest and motivated is what the rider should receive in my opinion. If that means the Petronas liveried team gets the best equipment and a few top engineers from the factory garage then so be it. Why upset the apple cart when the rider is clearly very happy, settled, and has made no mumurs about wanting a Monster seat?

As much as Rossi is clearly the aging slower rider in the team I don't see Yamaha letting him go simply because of the PR he brings to the brand. That's probably the main reason he is there now. I don't think they would let MV go either. They do need a really big shake up and I think Lin Jarvis and Valentino Rossi need to go, the team seems very stale.

Agree, It would be mutually beneficial for Yamaha to include FQ as much as possible with developing the bike but I honestly don't know how that works or whether his involvement would be limited in any way simply because he doesn't ride a blue bike. I'd hope not because that makes no sense at all... but neither does extending the contract of an ageing 40 year old rider who hasn't won a race in two years but there is talk of that happening??

ratdeal · Oct 6, 2019

If I remember correctly, Lin Jarvis recently stated that Rossi retires when Yamaha management decides he does if Valentino hasn't come to that conclusion himself in due time. They just didn't give an indication of when. I agree that his time has passed and probably did so a number of years ago.

If Lin Jarvis was the CEO of a company the board would have gotten rid of him a long time ago based upon his results. He has overseen the loss of a champion rider, the pandering to another based upon non performance related factors, and the year on year sub standard performance of the team based upon the industry accepted metrics (wins and championships). He has been nicking a wage for years now.

The entire race department needs an overhaul, from the top down.

michaelm · Oct 6, 2019

Mick D said:
The 8 time champion winning a last corner battle with a rookie on a satellite bike aint really nothin to write home about...

With little more race-craft (a-la Dovi or Rins) a seasoned rider, not gunning for their first GP win, may have let MM by with 7-8 laps to go to probe his weaknesses and let him bear the brunt of leading and conserve energy/tire/bike for the last lap battle to come...

Is incredibly not a sufficiently strong adjective for you?. Absolutely it is impressive a seasoned rider in his pomp who is rapidly approaching being at the very pinnacle of the pantheon of gp riders all time needed a moderately desperate last lap move to beat FQ as I believe I pretty much said.

As regards MM I do find it admirable as others have said that like Rossi at his peak he will still take some risk to go for a win regardless of the points standings, and it was merely an observation that I do think he has decided not to let a competitor have the last shot at him, perhaps backing up Dovi's post race observation that he is still capable of learning/improving. Whether this will work against a crafty rider like Dovi on a day when Dovi is on riding a bike with different characteristics like the Ducati is another question as you say, but I don't believe MM to FQ's credit had the pace to make a break on FQ in this race and wouldn't have tried to do so particularly given they weren't under pressure from following riders; they were a fair way in front of Vinales.(EDIT Vinales was closer than I thought; 0perhaps FQ could have forced MM to take the lead).

AJV80 · Oct 6, 2019

Mick D said:
Regularly? Really?

Common folks. FQ has been a revelation but he has NOT been "regularly" dicing it out. He has had mechanical issues, he has had inconsistencies, he has shown great POTENTIAL, he has ridden the stalite bike as well as Zarco... oh how soon we forget when we have something new and shiny to swoon over.

He has had unbelievable one lap speed.

Keep it real fan-boyz...

Zarco's Rookie Season: 1 DNF, 2 Poles, 3 podiums - 6th 174 points
Quartararo's Rookie Season: 3 DNF, 4 Poles, 5 podiums - 7th 143 points (4 rounds to go).

There are similarities in the rookie season performances of the two but Fabio does looks the stronger of the two. It will be interesting to see how he goes next year with better equipment and additional support. Zarco's performance plateaued for his second year remaining similar in the standing. I wonder if the same with happen with Fabio or whether he keeps improving and getting stronger. I have a feeling he will push himself and be even stronger next season now that he knows he can do it.

michaelm · Oct 6, 2019

Aw Mang said:
From Reddit,

Edit to add: the interview was in Italian so something might have gotten lost in translation. Maybe Rossi didn’t really mean to sound like sour grapes in English. Italian speaking folks on here can clarify that.

I hope it is a mis-translation, otherwise he is displaying all the (lack of ) grace that has characterised his latter career, and perhaps continues to spend too much time with Uccio.

Maybe he took his eye off the ball pre-season in regard to 2006 which is his own problem, but Nicky won that title fair and square in a season with close to the most equal equipment across the grid all time, and Valentino was unable to beat Toni Elias when Elias got SNS tires for a single race, as well as as only being in an advantageous position to win the the title in the last race because of a Pedrosa torpedo on Nicky. He was also simply not fast enough in the late season races in 2015; beating Pedrosa and Iannone in various end of season races would have given him the title regardless of MM or Lorenzo, and it could be argued MM threw away a title that year himself in any case, given that settling for his positions at the time when he crashed out of all those races would have given him the title.

Keshav · Oct 6, 2019

Mick D said:
:lol::lol::lol:

MM's bold statement: "An 8 time world champ can beat a rookie on a stalite bike who has never won a race"... whoo-hoo!!

Mick D said:
Regularly? Really?

Common folks. FQ has been a revelation but he has NOT been "regularly" dicing it out. He has had mechanical issues, he has had inconsistencies, he has shown great POTENTIAL, he has ridden the stalite bike as well as Zarco... oh how soon we forget when we have something new and shiny to swoon over.

He has had unbelievable one lap speed.

Keep it real fan-boyz...

Well, I may have used the word regularly too loosely. But he's been competing with MM for poles like no other rookie, and twice now led races with MM sitting on his tail, whilst much more experienced riders were wayyyy behind. The possibility of a Zarco redux is on the minds of all who were disappointed by his fall from grace, tho if he'd stayed at Yamaha I don't believe that would have happened. I don't think it's fan-boyish to have high hopes for the ascent of a hot young talent; especially in light of how boring it is when MM continues to effortlessly walk away with titles.

BTW Mate - what is this "stalite" of which you speak?

Mick D · Oct 6, 2019

michaelm said:
Is incredibly not a sufficiently strong adjective for you?. Absolutely it is impressive a seasoned rider in his pomp who is rapidly approaching being at the very pinnacle of the pantheon of gp riders all time needed a moderately desperate last lap move to beat FQ as I believe I pretty much said.

As regards MM I do find it admirable as others have said that like Rossi at his peak he will still take some risk to go for a win regardless of the points standings, and it was merely an observation that I do think he has decided not to let a competitor have the last shot at him, perhaps backing up Dovi's post race observation that he is still capable of learning/improving. Whether this will work against a crafty rider like Dovi on a day when Dovi is on riding a bike with different characteristics like the Ducati is another question as you say, but I don't believe MM to FQ's credit had the pace to make a break on FQ in this race and wouldn't have tried to do so particularly given they weren't under pressure from following riders; they were a fair way in front of Vinales.(EDIT Vinales was closer than I thought; 0perhaps FQ could have forced MM to take the lead).

Methinks you missed my point entirely.

Mick D · Oct 6, 2019

Keshav said:
BTW Mate - what is this "stalite" of which you speak?

Hmmmm... good question. A result of posting in the middle of the night while trying to abate arthritic pain...

michaelm · Oct 6, 2019

Mick D said:
Methinks you missed my point entirely.

You will have to enlighten me then. What exactly is your point?. Is it wrong to be excited by either or both of MM and FQ ?. .

I don’t think Zarco showed one lap pace as consistently as FQ and I agree with Kesh that he would likely still be doing well if he was on a Yamaha btw. I perforce must beg forgiveness for liking the idea of MM having some competition.

michaelm · Oct 6, 2019

AJV80 said:
Zarco's Rookie Season: 1 DNF, 2 Poles, 3 podiums - 6th 174 points
Quartararo's Rookie Season: 3 DNF, 4 Poles, 5 podiums - 7th 143 points (4 rounds to go).

There are similarities in the rookie season performances of the two but Fabio does looks the stronger of the two. It will be interesting to see how he goes next year with better equipment and additional support. Zarco's performance plateaued for his second year remaining similar in the standing. I wonder if the same with happen with Fabio or whether he keeps improving and getting stronger. I have a feeling he will push himself and be even stronger next season now that he knows he can do it.

Zarco (and Tech 3) also signed with KTM during his second season.

AJV80 · Oct 6, 2019

michaelm said:
Zarco (and Tech 3) also signed with KTM during his second season.

Yamaha in general struggled the most during the 2018 season at a factory level, so I don’t think the departure of either really caused them to miss out on much when it came to factory support.

But you’re right, It’s a different case for Fabio, Yamaha has improved this season and looks like it will continue to next season fingers crossed.

Furiosa · Oct 7, 2019

AJV80 said:
Zarco's Rookie Season: 1 DNF, 2 Poles, 3 podiums - 6th 174 points
Quartararo's Rookie Season: 3 DNF, 4 Poles, 5 podiums - 7th 143 points (4 rounds to go).

There are similarities in the rookie season performances of the two but Fabio does looks the stronger of the two. It will be interesting to see how he goes next year with better equipment and additional support. Zarco's performance plateaued for his second year remaining similar in the standing. I wonder if the same with happen with Fabio or whether he keeps improving and getting stronger. I have a feeling he will push himself and be even stronger next season now that he knows he can do it.

This. This is the 1 thing that is really bugging me about Fabio's season. I hope Fabio continues to improve but I remember being really excited about Zarcoo in his first season.

AJV80 · Oct 7, 2019

Furiosa said:
This. This is the 1 thing that is really bugging me about Fabio's season. I hope Fabio continues to improve but I remember being really excited about Zarcoo in his first season.

Yeah, Yamaha where in a real rut when Zarco was riding for them. I wonder how much of that impacted his results?

The series really needs someone like Fabio who can take the fight to Marc.

michaelm · Oct 7, 2019

AJV80 said:
Yeah, Yamaha where in a real rut when Zarco was riding for them. I wonder how much of that impacted his results?

The series really needs someone like Fabio who can take the fight to Marc.

Sure, but Yamaha weren’t so bad that pretty much anyone regarded a KTM factory ride as better than a Yamaha factory ride though, although some of we anti-Rossi cultists considered that the prospect of being involved with Yamaha and inevitably hence with Rossi must have looked pretty bad to Zarco for him to make that decision. He was wrong obviously, as were we, the bike is starting to look fairly good, whether because of or despite Rossi, and there is no indication that Vinales, FQ et al are suffering from any lack of support or are being disadvantaged by favouritism towards Rossi. Jorge to Ducati (at least, I am not sure he had much choice in going to Honda), Zarco to KTM and indeed Rossi himself to Ducati are all looking like unwise decisions made with an element of personal pique, although all three I am sure were paid well, and Jorge and particularly Valentino had obviously already achieved greatly of course.

AJV80 · Oct 7, 2019

michaelm said:
Sure, but Yamaha weren’t so bad that pretty much anyone regarded a KTM factory ride as better than a Yamaha factory ride though, although some of we anti-Rossi cultists considered that the prospect of being involved with Yamaha and inevitably hence with Rossi must have looked pretty bad to Zarco for him to make that decision. He was wrong obviously, as were we, the bike is starting to look fairly good, whether because of or despite Rossi, and there is no indication that Vinales, FQ et al are suffering from any lack of support or are being disadvantaged by favouritism towards Rossi. Jorge to Ducati (at least, I am not sure he had much choice in going to Honda), Zarco to KTM and indeed Rossi himself to Ducati are all looking like unwise decisions made with an element of personal pique, although all three I am sure were paid well, and Jorge and particularly Valentino had obviously already achieved greatly of course.

I was one of the people at the time thinking Zarco’s KTM move could actually work out. Partly because at the time Yamaha where in a bit of a hole and I thought that with an up and coming ex word champion star like Zarco on the books that KTM would be making big bold changes to the bike if needed to get his results in the same space as they where at Yamaha. The KTM was still early in its development and I thought if he couldn’t get results with them then they would develop heavily around Zarco’s criteria.

Shows what I know

michaelm · Oct 7, 2019

AJV80 said:
I was one of the people at the time thinking Zarco’s KTM move could actually work out. Partly because at the time Yamaha where in a bit of a hole and I thought that with an up and coming ex word champion star like Zarco on the books that KTM would be making big bold changes to the bike if needed to get his results in the same space as they where at Yamaha. The KTM was still early in its development and I thought if he couldn’t get results with them then they would develop heavily around Zarco’s criteria.

Shows what I know

I certainly had no perception it would end as badly as it did, being fairly impressed with Zarco myself, and to me it says as much or more about KTM and their culture which has now been revealed, akin to Ducati (? of old), as it does about Zarco,

Segfault · Oct 7, 2019

I have to say I didn't expect him to go to KTM. I thought he was a little too old to take risks - well, I know he is young, but young/old have a little different meaning in MotoGP. I thought KTM won't be able to provide a competitive bike for several seasons to come, thus being a wrong choice for someone like Zarco. But then I thought Zarco knows better what's good for him ...

Hollywood · Oct 7, 2019

I think most of us who have followed motorcycle racing for a while do believe at some point KTM will get it right and have a top Motogp machine. KTM has the money, they have the engineers, but they have not developed the right philosophy yet, their commitment to the steel trellis frame is an example of that.

Based on the timing, I think Zarco made the right move when he went to KTM, it was a big payday for him.

evo9 · Oct 7, 2019

Hollywood said:
I think most of us who have followed motorcycle racing for a while do believe at some point KTM will get it right and have a top Motogp machine. KTM has the money, they have the engineers, but they have not developed the right philosophy yet, their commitment to the steel trellis frame is an example of that.

Based on the timing, I think Zarco made the right move when he went to KTM, it was a big payday for him.

Yep, all ex Honda people.

AJV80 · Oct 7, 2019

evo9 said:
Yep, all ex Honda people.

That would explain a bit, Honda have a bike only Marc can ride and now KTM are working hard to make sure they have one that only Pol can ride.

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