Joined Jun 2007
3K Posts | 309+
UK
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/sport/sportresults/MotoGP/2013/July/jul1613-hayden-told-no-factory-ducati/
it is MCN to pinch of salt.....
it is MCN to pinch of salt.....
Just getting into this topic, others may have said it, but I honestly think that a move for hayden to wsbk could be the best thing for his future.
The only spotlight he has been in the last few years has been negative. I honestly think that hayden could win in wsbk in his first year, the dude is really talented.
I think he will be let go from motogp at the end of this season.
The only spotlight he has been in the last few years has been negative. I honestly think that hayden could win in wsbk in his first year, the dude is really talented.
I think he will be let go from motogp at the end of this season.
MigsAngel
Fair enough, but none of those young guys will best Nicky's results with his current ride. Rossi and Dovi comfortably prove that. I'm not against new talent getting their shot, but none will have success where Nicky, Dovi and Rossi have failed. Nicky will depart the Ducati garage, someone else will get their shot, and then they'll leave without fulfilling their "promise."
I think it's time for Nicky to move on, not because there's someone particularly better waiting, but because he's languished long enough. Ducati should pull a Suzuki...depart the series, fix the bike and return. At present, neither of Ducati's efforts (GP, SBK) are performing appropriately.
Honestly, which Moto2 rider do you surmise will beat Nicky or Dovi on the current D16? I'm generally interested in who and why?
Fair enough, but none of those young guys will best Nicky's results with his current ride. Rossi and Dovi comfortably prove that. I'm not against new talent getting their shot, but none will have success where Nicky, Dovi and Rossi have failed. Nicky will depart the Ducati garage, someone else will get their shot, and then they'll leave without fulfilling their "promise."
I think it's time for Nicky to move on, not because there's someone particularly better waiting, but because he's languished long enough. Ducati should pull a Suzuki...depart the series, fix the bike and return. At present, neither of Ducati's efforts (GP, SBK) are performing appropriately.
Honestly, which Moto2 rider do you surmise will beat Nicky or Dovi on the current D16? I'm generally interested in who and why?
Mick D
I dont think I denigrated him at all. He won the WC through an exceptionally lucky set of circumstances. Is he a better rider than Pedrosa, Lorenzo, Rossi, Marquez, Stoner, Melandri, Dovizioso? Nope, never was.
....... lucky, though.
Think of my post more as a counterpoint to the 'Pedrosa is .....' brigade. I have little feeling for Hayden one way or the other. He was unlucky to get ten-pinned by Pedrosa and that seems to be the beginning of the 'Hate Dani' campaign, which is, IMO, completely undeserved.
Pedrosa is one of the most talented, most consistent riders ever to throw a leg over a motorcycle. He's pushing the envelope for his size on this class of bike.
Hayden is.... lucky.
I dont think I denigrated him at all. He won the WC through an exceptionally lucky set of circumstances. Is he a better rider than Pedrosa, Lorenzo, Rossi, Marquez, Stoner, Melandri, Dovizioso? Nope, never was.
....... lucky, though.
Think of my post more as a counterpoint to the 'Pedrosa is .....' brigade. I have little feeling for Hayden one way or the other. He was unlucky to get ten-pinned by Pedrosa and that seems to be the beginning of the 'Hate Dani' campaign, which is, IMO, completely undeserved.
Pedrosa is one of the most talented, most consistent riders ever to throw a leg over a motorcycle. He's pushing the envelope for his size on this class of bike.
Hayden is.... lucky.
GeePee
lol Iannone is doing terrible on that Pramac bike. Spies has barely even rode the bike, and yet you guys are writing him off. I'm of strong belief that Spies will be faster than everyone else at Ducati. Wait for Indy, he'll probably be leading the race before his seat cracks, his engine blows, his tires fail, and his swing arm snaps.
lol Iannone is doing terrible on that Pramac bike. Spies has barely even rode the bike, and yet you guys are writing him off. I'm of strong belief that Spies will be faster than everyone else at Ducati. Wait for Indy, he'll probably be leading the race before his seat cracks, his engine blows, his tires fail, and his swing arm snaps.
Joined Jun 2007
3K Posts | 309+
UK
elitemafia
Spies may be good, but I'd be surprised if he is able to crack the top 10 at Indy....
He needs to get re-acquainted with the bike....since as you say, he has barely ridden the bike.....and that includes pre-season testing....he may have an okay result by Sepang if he doesn't crash an injure himself again....
Spies may be good, but I'd be surprised if he is able to crack the top 10 at Indy....
He needs to get re-acquainted with the bike....since as you say, he has barely ridden the bike.....and that includes pre-season testing....he may have an okay result by Sepang if he doesn't crash an injure himself again....
Joined Feb 2009
3K Posts | 2+
siebenbürgen süße heimat!
BJ.C
The accepted career path is: compete in rookie season, win in sophmore season, champion by third season. Hayden's career path was delayed by a sophmore slump, during which time Hayden was a crasher as he adapted his style to suit GP.
The reason for Hayden is obvious. After Doohan's reign, GP had a lot of deadwood. GP teams needed expert 4-stroke riders, Hayden was towards the top of the list. His dirt track record was better than American GP legends, and he notched 1 AMA SBK title for Honda. Hayden was younger than Edwards. GP was a culture shock, but Hayden worked tirelessly until he reached the top. "Lucky" is not the way you describe people like Hayden. Overachiever might be an apt descriptor for a hayseed who can barely speak English and probably barely graduated high school, but lucky is a term best used to describe untalented, undisciplined, or lazy competitors who achieve one-off accolades. Lucky is what you say about Spies 3rd consecutive SBK title, which was granted by the AMA's somewhat arcane technical scrutiny policies. Spies bike received one set of randomly-selected technical tests. It passed. Mladin's bike received a different set of randomly-selected tests. It failed. Both bikes were prepared identically. A bike cannot be retested by technical scrutiny. That's lucky.
Not that conjecture is particularly worthwhile, but I think if Hayden had been using the standard 2006 RC212V, the one that appeared at the end of the 2005 season, Hayden probably would have walked off with the championship relatively easily. He and Melandri were both fast on the standard machine, but Hayden's tenacity would have prevailed over Melandri's fragile psyche. Rossi was dead-to-rights by Laguna 2006. Honda had to unleash its inner demons to throw away Hayden's lead. When Hayden and Rossi touched going into turn 1 at Valencia, all of that bad karma was transfered to Rossi, and history changed.
BTW, neither Dovi nor Melandri are better than Hayden. Dovi's accomplishments on a factory Honda are basically identical to the first 3 seasons of Hayden's career. Melandri achieved more race wins, and better finishing position in 2005 and 2007. Neither of them are known for their work ethic or development capabilities.
The accepted career path is: compete in rookie season, win in sophmore season, champion by third season. Hayden's career path was delayed by a sophmore slump, during which time Hayden was a crasher as he adapted his style to suit GP.
The reason for Hayden is obvious. After Doohan's reign, GP had a lot of deadwood. GP teams needed expert 4-stroke riders, Hayden was towards the top of the list. His dirt track record was better than American GP legends, and he notched 1 AMA SBK title for Honda. Hayden was younger than Edwards. GP was a culture shock, but Hayden worked tirelessly until he reached the top. "Lucky" is not the way you describe people like Hayden. Overachiever might be an apt descriptor for a hayseed who can barely speak English and probably barely graduated high school, but lucky is a term best used to describe untalented, undisciplined, or lazy competitors who achieve one-off accolades. Lucky is what you say about Spies 3rd consecutive SBK title, which was granted by the AMA's somewhat arcane technical scrutiny policies. Spies bike received one set of randomly-selected technical tests. It passed. Mladin's bike received a different set of randomly-selected tests. It failed. Both bikes were prepared identically. A bike cannot be retested by technical scrutiny. That's lucky.
Not that conjecture is particularly worthwhile, but I think if Hayden had been using the standard 2006 RC212V, the one that appeared at the end of the 2005 season, Hayden probably would have walked off with the championship relatively easily. He and Melandri were both fast on the standard machine, but Hayden's tenacity would have prevailed over Melandri's fragile psyche. Rossi was dead-to-rights by Laguna 2006. Honda had to unleash its inner demons to throw away Hayden's lead. When Hayden and Rossi touched going into turn 1 at Valencia, all of that bad karma was transfered to Rossi, and history changed.
BTW, neither Dovi nor Melandri are better than Hayden. Dovi's accomplishments on a factory Honda are basically identical to the first 3 seasons of Hayden's career. Melandri achieved more race wins, and better finishing position in 2005 and 2007. Neither of them are known for their work ethic or development capabilities.
Joined Jun 2007
3K Posts | 309+
UK
mylexicon
Being a fan I'd thought you'd know he only won 1 superbike title in AMA....And strangely that was 2002, the same year Mladin missed the first 3 races meeting of the season due to shoulder injury....Lucky for Nicky the only real competition (and the man some on this forum call the AMA GOAT) in 2002 was out of contention for the 2002 title (good thing we dont call that a tainted title when your prime rival is out due to injury)....
Who was leading the MOTOGP title chase in 2006 up until Catalunya?......and then what happened to him?
Doesnt matter really....Hodor has had his turn and now has his title.....he can go home to Kentucky a happy lucky man.....
Being a fan I'd thought you'd know he only won 1 superbike title in AMA....And strangely that was 2002, the same year Mladin missed the first 3 races meeting of the season due to shoulder injury....Lucky for Nicky the only real competition (and the man some on this forum call the AMA GOAT) in 2002 was out of contention for the 2002 title (good thing we dont call that a tainted title when your prime rival is out due to injury)....
Who was leading the MOTOGP title chase in 2006 up until Catalunya?......and then what happened to him?
Doesnt matter really....Hodor has had his turn and now has his title.....he can go home to Kentucky a happy lucky man.....
Joined Feb 2008
2K Posts | 0+
home
mylexicon
At their peak, I agree, I'd rate Hayden and Dovi roughly equal. Melandri always seemed to me like someone who was too erratic, but able to deliver the occasional moments of brilliance. Someone who can take some glorious victories, but would never be able to take a championship, not even on a factory bike. When it became clear that there was no longer a factory seat at HRC for Dovi, I argued that is was the wrong decision, because if I felt he was a guy that could win a championship through consistency when the so-called aliens ran into unforeseen troubles (like in the current season, for instance). Work ethic and development capabilities? I'd tend to agree about Melandri, although I think these things are hard to judge from the outside. I know Hayden has a reputation as a "hard worker", but also as someone who's tireless grinding through lap after lap rarely amount to much in term of developmental progress. Stoner was said to only need a couple of laps to give the right feedback. But perhaps you mean something different by work ethic. As far as Dovi is concerned, I haven't not seen any negative reports about him in terms of either work ethic or development capabilities.
Anyway, as far as where they are currently at, I don't think Hayden is likely to ever show any significant improvement in motogp, whereas Dovi, I think, still has some potential that might be exploited.
At their peak, I agree, I'd rate Hayden and Dovi roughly equal. Melandri always seemed to me like someone who was too erratic, but able to deliver the occasional moments of brilliance. Someone who can take some glorious victories, but would never be able to take a championship, not even on a factory bike. When it became clear that there was no longer a factory seat at HRC for Dovi, I argued that is was the wrong decision, because if I felt he was a guy that could win a championship through consistency when the so-called aliens ran into unforeseen troubles (like in the current season, for instance). Work ethic and development capabilities? I'd tend to agree about Melandri, although I think these things are hard to judge from the outside. I know Hayden has a reputation as a "hard worker", but also as someone who's tireless grinding through lap after lap rarely amount to much in term of developmental progress. Stoner was said to only need a couple of laps to give the right feedback. But perhaps you mean something different by work ethic. As far as Dovi is concerned, I haven't not seen any negative reports about him in terms of either work ethic or development capabilities.
Anyway, as far as where they are currently at, I don't think Hayden is likely to ever show any significant improvement in motogp, whereas Dovi, I think, still has some potential that might be exploited.
MigsAngel
Thanks for the correction.
I'm a Hayden fan, but I'm also a Texan. Edwards won two titles for Honda and 2000 and 2002 on an RC51. Those years are burned into my brain, and sometimes I forget who did what. Nicky's maiden SBK win in 2000, and his distinction as the youngest-ever AMA SBK champion complicate the business of keeping accomplishments straight.
Thanks for the correction.
I'm a Hayden fan, but I'm also a Texan. Edwards won two titles for Honda and 2000 and 2002 on an RC51. Those years are burned into my brain, and sometimes I forget who did what. Nicky's maiden SBK win in 2000, and his distinction as the youngest-ever AMA SBK champion complicate the business of keeping accomplishments straight.
mylexicon
We have a guy at work. Tireless. He gets through a ton of work, a lot of it is of suspect quality, but the boss loves him because he is in early and stays late. He has to, he is pretty close to talentless. I have heard the same platitudes spoken about him - that he has a stellar work ethic. But we on the factory floor know, he has to work about twice as hard as the next guy just to keep up.
Just like Hayden, management loves him. They ask him all sorts of technical questions and he, being the ....... that he is, gives them answers that are inherently flawed. But they are as technically inept as he is, so they listen and nod and make up some new process that will improve things. Which we ignore because it was a .... idea in the first place.
Just like Hayden, it has taken him years to achieve mediocrity, but he did have one great year where (with a lot of unseen help from his workmates) he 'developed' a product that happened to sell pretty well. He has been living off that reputation for years.
There's half a dozen guys that are truly talented and have the ability to make machines sing, but they are given dull, repetetive tasks, because ....... is the golden boy. We have a team that is specifically there to go out and fix his .... ups. Management think that his fuckups are the norm, because he's their top guy. But if you look at the service records, he is running about 500% more than the next guy - of course management knows its because he is given the more technical jobs, so naturally they need more fettling.
He reminds me of someone.
We have a guy at work. Tireless. He gets through a ton of work, a lot of it is of suspect quality, but the boss loves him because he is in early and stays late. He has to, he is pretty close to talentless. I have heard the same platitudes spoken about him - that he has a stellar work ethic. But we on the factory floor know, he has to work about twice as hard as the next guy just to keep up.
Just like Hayden, management loves him. They ask him all sorts of technical questions and he, being the ....... that he is, gives them answers that are inherently flawed. But they are as technically inept as he is, so they listen and nod and make up some new process that will improve things. Which we ignore because it was a .... idea in the first place.
Just like Hayden, it has taken him years to achieve mediocrity, but he did have one great year where (with a lot of unseen help from his workmates) he 'developed' a product that happened to sell pretty well. He has been living off that reputation for years.
There's half a dozen guys that are truly talented and have the ability to make machines sing, but they are given dull, repetetive tasks, because ....... is the golden boy. We have a team that is specifically there to go out and fix his .... ups. Management think that his fuckups are the norm, because he's their top guy. But if you look at the service records, he is running about 500% more than the next guy - of course management knows its because he is given the more technical jobs, so naturally they need more fettling.
He reminds me of someone.
BJ.C
Let's try again.
An overachieving Kentucky bumpkin is hired to work at a factory. He is easy to work with, and he's not afraid to play second fiddle. His popularity with customers is also a valuable attribute. A daft, well-connected Spaniard, who never achieved much during his career, convinces factory management that times are about to change, and the overachieving bumpkin should never be promoted to leadership. The Spaniard insists that his protege represents the future, but the Spaniard has just broken ties with the real prodigy, in fact.
The factory give the new Spaniard and his protege their blessing. In the first year, he and his protege are beaten handily by the dumb overachiever, but the factory is impressed by Spanish blagging so the Spaniards maintain leadership roles. The factory goes downhill rapidly. The overachiever cannot overcome systemic incompetence so the factory replaces him with an irrelevant Italian "yes man". Naturally, nothing improves. The people who hired the Spaniard are disgraced and fired.
The overachiever finds new employment. After a terrible development year to address new regulations in the rubber industry, the ....... overachiever becomes a consistent performer in 2010, and by season's end, his setup work benefits the struggling factory. In 2011, the overachiever is denied promotion at his new factory. New experts are brought in to run things. The factory goes down hill immediately. Everyone but the overachiever is fired for poor performance. An intelligent German with a track record of success is hired to make the factory work. He assesses the situation, and then resolves to fire the overachiever with ties to the most important sales market....
This is the story of Nicky Hayden, the "luckiest" guy in GP.
Moral of the story: Finding the next GP legend is like finding a needle in a haystack. Some people think that the chore will be easier if they eliminate the Haystack. Fail.
3564691374164570
We have a guy at work. Tireless. He gets through a ton of work, a lot of it is of suspect quality, but the boss loves him because he is in early and stays late. He has to, he is pretty close to talentless. I have heard the same platitudes spoken about him - that he has a stellar work ethic. But we on the factory floor know, he has to work about twice as hard as the next guy just to keep up.
Just like Hayden, management loves him. They ask him all sorts of technical questions and he, being the ....... that he is, gives them answers that are inherently flawed. But they are as technically inept as he is, so they listen and nod and make up some new process that will improve things. Which we ignore because it was a .... idea in the first place.
Just like Hayden, it has taken him years to achieve mediocrity, but he did have one great year where (with a lot of unseen help from his workmates) he 'developed' a product that happened to sell pretty well. He has been living off that reputation for years.
There's half a dozen guys that are truly talented and have the ability to make machines sing, but they are given dull, repetetive tasks, because ....... is the golden boy. We have a team that is specifically there to go out and fix his .... ups. Management think that his fuckups are the norm, because he's their top guy. But if you look at the service records, he is running about 500% more than the next guy - of course management knows its because he is given the more technical jobs, so naturally they need more fettling.
He reminds me of someone.
Let's try again.
An overachieving Kentucky bumpkin is hired to work at a factory. He is easy to work with, and he's not afraid to play second fiddle. His popularity with customers is also a valuable attribute. A daft, well-connected Spaniard, who never achieved much during his career, convinces factory management that times are about to change, and the overachieving bumpkin should never be promoted to leadership. The Spaniard insists that his protege represents the future, but the Spaniard has just broken ties with the real prodigy, in fact.
The factory give the new Spaniard and his protege their blessing. In the first year, he and his protege are beaten handily by the dumb overachiever, but the factory is impressed by Spanish blagging so the Spaniards maintain leadership roles. The factory goes downhill rapidly. The overachiever cannot overcome systemic incompetence so the factory replaces him with an irrelevant Italian "yes man". Naturally, nothing improves. The people who hired the Spaniard are disgraced and fired.
The overachiever finds new employment. After a terrible development year to address new regulations in the rubber industry, the ....... overachiever becomes a consistent performer in 2010, and by season's end, his setup work benefits the struggling factory. In 2011, the overachiever is denied promotion at his new factory. New experts are brought in to run things. The factory goes down hill immediately. Everyone but the overachiever is fired for poor performance. An intelligent German with a track record of success is hired to make the factory work. He assesses the situation, and then resolves to fire the overachiever with ties to the most important sales market....
This is the story of Nicky Hayden, the "luckiest" guy in GP.
Moral of the story: Finding the next GP legend is like finding a needle in a haystack. Some people think that the chore will be easier if they eliminate the Haystack. Fail.
Joined Oct 2006
3K Posts | 34+
Tar Heel State
It's official.... http://www.cyclenews.com/61/21985/Racing-Article/MotoGP--Nicky-Hayden-Confirms-Hes-Out-Of-Work.aspx
I know many are bummed about this, but as a Hayden fan I'm happy he's finally getting off that pile of ..... If he goes to WSBK on the Ducati though I will drive to his house and beat the .... out of him!
I know many are bummed about this, but as a Hayden fan I'm happy he's finally getting off that pile of ..... If he goes to WSBK on the Ducati though I will drive to his house and beat the .... out of him!
