Your input on Rossi's decline?

michaelm · Feb 10, 2021

Keshav said:
Not to be pedantic, but I never implied Ducati had in their wildest dreams predicting a championship. My point was simply that they saw potential. The field of available candidates for that seat was limited, and candidates with better track records still more limited. Ducati surely didn't care about Dorna rating in the wake of Stoner's wins.

As to his quitting: Agreed. Pearls before swine. Tho what with his machinations to fabricate artificial scenarios leading to more wins for Rossi for the sake of ratings, I tend to think of Carmine as the Vince MacMahon of racing.

OTOH - the whole soap opera made for some really fun discussions on this forum.

His signing was still something of a fluke. As I recall it was partly on Troy Bayliss's recommendation, to wit no-one gasses it up like Casey; I believe he was their 4th choice, after Melandri of course who was unavailable for that year but also Nicky Hayden(I think) and John Hopkins.

Enough of Casey I guess, it is 9 years since he started his last motogp season.

birdman · Feb 10, 2021

Keshav said:
Not to be pedantic, but I never implied Ducati had in their wildest dreams predicting a championship. My point was simply that they saw potential. The field of available candidates for that seat was limited, and candidates with better track records still more limited. Ducati surely didn't care about Dorna rating in the wake of Stoner's wins.

As to his quitting: Agreed. Pearls before swine. Tho what with his machinations to fabricate artificial scenarios leading to more wins for Rossi for the sake of ratings, I tend to think of Carmine as the Vince MacMahon of racing.

OTOH - the whole soap opera made for some really fun discussions on this forum.

I don’t disagree with what you say. Obviously Ducati saw potential. Which rider in motogp doesn’t have potential?

The question is did Ducati see Stoner as a contender? I think not. I think they thought even post 2007 it was the bike like everyone else until, that fateful day, Rossi threw a leg over it.

Keshav · Feb 11, 2021

birdman said:
I don’t disagree with what you say. Obviously Ducati saw potential. Which rider in motogp doesn’t have potential?

The question is did Ducati see Stoner as a contender? I think not. I think they thought even post 2007 it was the bike like everyone else until, that fateful day, Rossi threw a leg over it.

Yeah... we're on the same page. Given Ducati's track record of valuing the tech over the talent, my gut says they were essentially looking for a reasonably good test mule to try out parts and innovations. I'd even go so far as to say, in their hearts they held no real convictions about the bike being sufficiently developed to win a championship. I think they were surprised as everyone else. Ducati as an entity really seemed to operate inside a bubble. I have no illusions that anyone there spied young Casey and thought, "Oooh, he can overcome all our engineering wackiness and gift us a championship."

p4p1 · Feb 13, 2021

Keshav said:
Yeah... we're on the same page. Given Ducati's track record of valuing the tech over the talent, my gut says they were essentially looking for a reasonably good test mule to try out parts and innovations. I'd even go so far as to say, in their hearts they held no real convictions about the bike being sufficiently developed to win a championship. I think they were surprised as everyone else. Ducati as an entity really seemed to operate inside a bubble. I have no illusions that anyone there spied young Casey and thought, "Oooh, he can overcome all our engineering wackiness and gift us a championship."

I think at the time everyone thought that Rossi was god, 2006 was basically a miracle of circumstances that lead to Rossi not winning. There was no way some 21 year old upstart was going to ride around a host of shortcomings to beat Rossi who was as motivated as ever to reclaim his title. Whether the tyres Stoner rode on were the better tyres at the time is still up for debate. They were the better tyres for Ducati but were they a better tyre than the tailor made Michelin's Rossi had? Who knows really. Rossi got the Bridgestones for 08 and won which 'proved' the 'Stones were the better tyres but the genius (or shall we say devious part) of what Rossi (or Carmelo) did was not just to get on a level playing field tyre wise with Stoner but have the tyres suit the Japanese twin-bar frame bikes over the idiosyncratic Ducati which disadvantaged Stoner.
Control tyres hurt Ducati but I don't think they hurt them as much as Rossi demanding a switch to the twin-bar frame. His status allowed it and if he can't win on it, then it must be the bike right? But KTM has proven that with time and diligent development a company doesn't have to lose a strong part of its DNA to compete on control tyres.
In '06/'07 did anyone really foresee that there would be 3 riders come along and wipe the floor with Rossi h2h? No way.

michaelm · Feb 14, 2021

p4p1 said:
I think at the time everyone thought that Rossi was god, 2006 was basically a miracle of circumstances that lead to Rossi not winning. There was no way some 21 year old upstart was going to ride around a host of shortcomings to beat Rossi who was as motivated as ever to reclaim his title. Whether the tyres Stoner rode on were the better tyres at the time is still up for debate. They were the better tyres for Ducati but were they a better tyre than the tailor made Michelin's Rossi had? Who knows really. Rossi got the Bridgestones for 08 and won which 'proved' the 'Stones were the better tyres but the genius (or shall we say devious part) of what Rossi (or Carmelo) did was not just to get on a level playing field tyre wise with Stoner but have the tyres suit the Japanese twin-bar frame bikes over the idiosyncratic Ducati which disadvantaged Stoner.
Control tyres hurt Ducati but I don't think they hurt them as much as Rossi demanding a switch to the twin-bar frame. His status allowed it and if he can't win on it, then it must be the bike right? But KTM has proven that with time and diligent development a company doesn't have to lose a strong part of its DNA to compete on control tyres.
In '06/'07 did anyone really foresee that there would be 3 riders come along and wipe the floor with Rossi h2h? No way.

To be fair they had already gone to the carbon fibre 'chassis' in 2009. Stoner always maintained the 2009 bike was fine and his health was the issue.

I think the 2010 bike Rossi inherited was a truly diabolical bike, perhaps because they had already attempted to make it into a Yamaha; as the old joke goes, when an Irishmen in a village was asked for directions he said first off I wouldn't start from here. The perception in 2010 was still pretty much that the bike was superior but Stoner was flaky, and if he could win on the bike as he did 3 times late season then Valentino would win on it more easily.

Hard to know at this remove whether the carbon fiber design direction was valid and the lack of a suitable tire was the problem as Ducati maintained for some time afterwards, but the possibility certainly exists it was a mis-step/an overly ambitious path.

AntG · Feb 15, 2021

michaelm said:
To be fair they had already gone to the carbon fibre 'chassis' in 2009. Stoner always maintained the 2009 bike was fine and his health was the issue.

I think the 2010 bike Rossi inherited was a truly diabolical bike, perhaps because they had already attempted to make it into a Yamaha; as the old joke goes, when an Irishmen in a village was asked for directions he said first off I wouldn't start from here. The perception in 2010 was still pretty much that the bike was superior but Stoner was flaky, and if he could win on the bike as he did 3 times late season then Valentino would win on it more easily.

Hard to know at this remove whether the carbon fiber design direction was valid and the lack of a suitable tire was the problem as Ducati maintained for some time afterwards, but the possibility certainly exists it was a mis-step/an overly ambitious path.

Yeah according to his autobiography the GP9 was the best bike Ducati gave him and that when he first tested it in mid-2008 he said he begged Ducati to let him use that frame for the rest of the season but they declined.

birdman · Mar 3, 2021

michaelm said:
To be fair they had already gone to the carbon fibre 'chassis' in 2009. Stoner always maintained the 2009 bike was fine and his health was the issue.

I think the 2010 bike Rossi inherited was a truly diabolical bike, perhaps because they had already attempted to make it into a Yamaha; as the old joke goes, when an Irishmen in a village was asked for directions he said first off I wouldn't start from here. The perception in 2010 was still pretty much that the bike was superior but Stoner was flaky, and if he could win on the bike as he did 3 times late season then Valentino would win on it more easily.

Hard to know at this remove whether the carbon fiber design direction was valid and the lack of a suitable tire was the problem as Ducati maintained for some time afterwards, but the possibility certainly exists it was a mis-step/an overly ambitious path.

The carbon frame was put in practise for production Ducati motorcycles and SBK, along with of course the Desmovalves. It is a part of their DNA. Not much use in Ducati punching out cookie cutter beam frames and i4 engines because ‘that’s what Rossi wanted’. In hindsight Stoner made Ducati more successful than maybe most riders ever had, just lacks the credit for doing so.

clarkjw · Mar 7, 2021

Rossi finished this test 1.6s of the lead on the SAME bike. Lol, he’s done for. I’d love to see him win #10 and retire, but he certainly won’t if MM comes back or these younginz find consistency.

Keshav · Mar 8, 2021

clarkjw said:
Rossi finished this test 1.6s of the lead on the SAME bike. Lol, he’s done for. I’d love to see him win #10 and retire, but he certainly won’t if MM comes back or these younginz find consistency.

Hey Man - good to see your name on the board.

Zincubus · Mar 8, 2021

When is the next race , guys. ?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Segfault · Mar 29, 2021

It may sound ironic, and it probably is. There is no direct evidence Rossi suppressing Vinales after he won three of first five races in 2017, but considering all circumstantial evidence I believe firmly Rossi is to blame for Vinales' fading. Which lasted for several years. What's ironic about it? This enabled Marc to win one title after another. I believe if Vinales had full Yamaha support he could have stood up against Marc and bag some titles himself. But Rossi didn't let him, trying to win himself and he wasn't good enough. Yup, by screwing up Vinales career Rossi made a favor to his own arch enemy. Ha!

stnd · Mar 29, 2021

I love this forum and all the Rossi whining from couch sitters. Those teams have bosses, and owners, they can figure out when it's time for him to stop. Until then cry some more losers.

misfit · Mar 29, 2021

Segfault said:
It may sound ironic, and it probably is. There is no direct evidence Rossi suppressing Vinales after he won three of first five races in 2017, but considering all circumstantial evidence I believe firmly Rossi is to blame for Vinales' fading. Which lasted for several years. What's ironic about it? This enabled Marc to win one title after another. I believe if Vinales had full Yamaha support he could have stood up against Marc and bag some titles himself. But Rossi didn't let him, trying to win himself and he wasn't good enough. Yup, by screwing up Vinales career Rossi made a favor to his own arch enemy. Ha!

Good grief. :cold:

Keshav · Mar 29, 2021

stnd said:
I love this forum and all the Rossi whining from couch sitters. Those teams have bosses, and owners, they can figure out when it's time for him to stop. Until then cry some more losers.

Hey - I don't know how open you are to radical new ideas, but I'll just throw it out there... maybe once in a blue moon instead of making personal attacks on everyone who disagrees with you, maybe once every so often, pretend like you're interested in talking about racing.

stnd · Mar 29, 2021

Keshav said:
Hey - I don't know how open you are to radical new ideas, but I'll just throw it out there... maybe once in a blue moon instead of making personal attacks on everyone who disagrees with you, maybe once every so often, pretend like you're interested in talking about racing.

I'll gladly retract the personal insults, my apologies.

The race was excellent. Super stoked that the season is back on. Cheers.

This thread is a repeat of a repeat of a repeat. And while there was nothing to write home about for Rossi, after getting bumped a few spots mid race some points were recovered.

It's unfortunate that we can't all have the same perspective. Pure racing vs. entertainment. Big money sports are entertainment first and foremost in my opinion, and that is why Rossi is still here and will be here until his result value outweighs his entertainment $$$ value.

Keshav · Mar 29, 2021

Rossi's value as a draw for crowds is well documented. The corresponding value as regards sponsorship money to his current team is doubtless welcome. You will agree tho, that if the team could have that kind of money AND a younger more competitive rider, they would go with with the younger rider. I'm sure from the perspective of his admirers it's must be gratifying to see the old guy show up every year and wave at the crowds. It's kind of like going to Macy's Department Store on Christmas to sit on Santa's lap. Except after a certain point, a certain segment of the population, having become toilet trained and able to tie their own shoelaces, come to realize it's just an old man in a brightly colored costume at which point they go on to find more gratifying pursuits.

michaelm · Mar 30, 2021

Segfault said:
It may sound ironic, and it probably is. There is no direct evidence Rossi suppressing Vinales after he won three of first five races in 2017, but considering all circumstantial evidence I believe firmly Rossi is to blame for Vinales' fading. Which lasted for several years. What's ironic about it? This enabled Marc to win one title after another. I believe if Vinales had full Yamaha support he could have stood up against Marc and bag some titles himself. But Rossi didn't let him, trying to win himself and he wasn't good enough. Yup, by screwing up Vinales career Rossi made a favor to his own arch enemy. Ha!

I actually don’t think so, they gave Vinales the reins last year and he looked just the same. He has been good at Qatar before as well, we need to wait imo before thinking things will be different this year.

The tire shenanigans/ removal of the tire on which Vinales was leading the title didn’t help a few years back though, and was pretty much down to Rossi, as was Lorenzo leaving I guess, and Lorenzo seemed to be able to develop a bike which suited other riders, not that Vinales would have been on a factory Yamaha if Lorenzo had stayed.

My gripes against Rossi are mainly off track, and in particular his deliberate use of the unhinged element among his fan base as a weapon against fellow competitors.

p4p1 · Mar 31, 2021

Segfault said:
It may sound ironic, and it probably is. There is no direct evidence Rossi suppressing Vinales after he won three of first five races in 2017, but considering all circumstantial evidence I believe firmly Rossi is to blame for Vinales' fading. Which lasted for several years. What's ironic about it? This enabled Marc to win one title after another. I believe if Vinales had full Yamaha support he could have stood up against Marc and bag some titles himself. But Rossi didn't let him, trying to win himself and he wasn't good enough. Yup, by screwing up Vinales career Rossi made a favor to his own arch enemy. Ha!

I'm not convinced that Vinales would have been able to beat Marquez whether the tyre change happened or not. But the tyre change, to a tyre that Rossi believed would be an advantage to himself on and was a much bigger advantage to Marquez and Dovisio certainly impacted Vinales chance to fight for the title.

320Dave · Mar 31, 2021

stnd said:
I love this forum and all the Rossi whining from couch sitters. Those teams have bosses, and owners, they can figure out when it's time for him to stop. Until then cry some more losers.

With all due respect.

You should know by now Rossi can (could/used to) outweigh bosses.

Its not far fetched to think his influence in the MotoGp world could lead Companies/teams etc into making poor choices they don't really want.

Not far fetched at all.

misfit · Mar 31, 2021

320Dave said:
With all due respect.

You should know by now Rossi can (could/used to) outweigh bosses.

Its not far fetched to think his influence in the MotoGp world could lead Companies/teams etc into making poor choices they don't really want.

Not far fetched at all.

Even that influence isn't so strong anymore. Afterall, he had to stand aside for Fabio. Situations, influence, performance and circumstances do go hand in hand and evolve over time.

Search

Search

Your input on Rossi's decline?

michaelm

birdman

Keshav

p4p1

michaelm

AntG

birdman

clarkjw

Keshav

Zincubus

Segfault

stnd

misfit

Keshav

stnd

Keshav

michaelm

p4p1

320Dave

misfit

Similar threads

Recent Discussions