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Your input on Rossi's decline?

Cutter

Cutter

Joined Jun 2020
73 Posts | 18+
San Diego -> Boston -> South Carolina
I am asking this as someone who gained an interest in the MotoGP last year. It seems as though Rossi's decline began in the 2010s. Positions averaging on 6th each race? Don't get me wrong, I love the guy but people continue to worship him even though there are many other players that are killing it in the league. Yes, I know of his past accomplishments; he deserves the revered status, but to think he is going to start getting continuous podiums all of the sudden is a far cry.

A poster on this website mentioned his decline in performance was due to being in your 30s, your heart rate begins to slow. Any merit to this?

I was a Dovi fan when I gained a love for superbike racing, I was let down the past two seasons and became a Quatararo/Miller fan.

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wdY0P9z.jpg
 
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Cutter said:
I am asking this as someone who gained an interest in the MotoGP last year. It seems as though Rossi's decline began in the 2010s. Positions averaging on 6th each race? Don't get me wrong, I love the guy but people continue to worship him even though there are many other players that are killing it in the league. Yes, I know of his past accomplishments; he deserves the revered status, but to think he is going to start getting continuous podiums all of the sudden is a far cry.

A poster on this website mentioned his decline in performance was due to being in your 30s, your heart rate begins to slow. Any merit to this?

I was a Dovi fan when I gained a love for superbike racing, I was let down the past two seasons and became a Quatararo/Miller fan.

YNVCSxE.jpg


wdY0P9z.jpg
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I haven't liked his off track manipulations for a long time, and don't believe he can any longer be called the unchallenged greatest rider ever as was perhaps the case at the end of the 2009 season, but he remains one of the greatest, and that he competed very closely for a title as recently as 2015 against 2 other all time greats was further evidence of same.

Time waits for no-one though, and his most recent seasons and a further season at age 42 is rather pushing things imo.
 
I'm not so sure what you're getting at.

I'm a fan of Rossi and his achievements, and will not stop being a fan simply because he is still riding in his aged state and is not able to keep up with the younger riders. Yes, his off-track antics have left a lot to be desired, but I have come to realise that all too often, the really great riders/drivers will have personality flaws .... as we all do. This is especially so with the yuber multiple champs who spend a lot of time in the limelight and at the bleeding edge of competition where the hunger for victory is highest, since it's closest, and they are pushing to both physical and psychic limits. Tempers will flare and ruthlessness will set it since the prize is always so close. It's then up to each fan of the sport to interpret what they see and weigh the qualities and flaws from their own vantage point. They come out either liking, disliking, or being indifferent about the rider although it's inevitably either one of the first two rather than indifference.

I especially like Stoner because I love his life story up and to the point of his retirement. He was also a über talent and it would make me grin reading and listening to his mates endorse his skills. He always willingly spoke of riding his bike the way it needed to be ridden, rather than insist on trying to encourage a design/setup of the bike that allowed him to ride the way he wanted. I could go on and on.... .... but I respect Rossi and his achievements a lot.
 
Rossi’s achievements during the very long peak of his career stand forever.

I see his situation in more recent years as akin to Federer vs Djokovic and Nadal, although Federer has not as yet hung on past the point of him being competitive with his younger rivals for places at or near the top of the pantheon of the sport of tennis.

I came to dislike Rossi because of his use of a certain element among his fandom against his rivals, particularly Stoner, having perhaps hypocritically not having had as much objection when Biaggi and Gibernau were the rivals being subjected to the fabled ‘mind games’. In retrospect Stoner retiring when he did was the right decision, but at the time I was keen to see him continue riding for at least 2 or 3 more years; I could have watched that guy ride a single lap on his own all day, and enjoyed watching him ride even in preference to my all time gp bike racing idol Mick Doohan. At the time Stoner retired he made it clear being vilified by the Valeban for performing as required by his job description ie winning races and titles, and what he saw as manipulation of tires, bike weights etc to disadvantage him were high up on the list of reasons for his distaste for the motogp circus.
 
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I don't think Rossi is worthy of revered status.

The manner which he conducted himself in and thought was acceptable, back in 2015 ensured I would never have any real respect for him as a rider and person ever again.

He basically pulled a ..... before ..... started doing it on a national/global scale. Rossi advanced an unproven conspiracy theory regarding the Phillip Island race that year, which had the result of inviting what amounted to an insurrection against Marc Marquez. As you'll recall, security was needed for Marc as well as his family because the Rossi fans who were behaving just like the Trumptards, wanted to go after Marquez for what he supposedly did to Rossi.

I think if those events unfolded in 2020 rather than 2015, given the nature of how the world is now, Rossi may in fact have been given a season long ban, or even a permanent ban for what he did. Rossi stirred up his fanbase through rhetoric and conspiracy then, and even in prior years because he knew his fanbase was more akin to a cult than just a group of passionate fans.

While yes his accomplishments prior to 2010 were impressive, and actually were something of note (something that ..... never managed to do) Rossi is an amoral piece of .... at the end of the day. He has never admitted to wrongdoing, or that he incited his fanbase constantly with his .........

To your other point, he got old. Something his fanbase still cannot accept.
 
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History indicates 10 years at the top is about all any rider can manage before decline. Most seam to get to that point where they just say ok, that’s enough, time to retire. Rossi, imo, had it all a bit too good, a bit too easy, for the first 5. He had to work much harder for the next 2, but the main thing I remember regarding comments from Rossi was he didn’t enjoy riding against Stoner and Lorenzo the way he did against Gibernau and Biaggi. For me, that’s it in a nutshell. It’s no wonder the biggest problem he’s ever had then is with Marquez. Apparently the better the competition, the less Rossi enjoys it.

Granted that, the young Rossi vs Marquez would have been a wonderful spectacle and I think that version of Rossi, before he became a bit too full of himself, would have held his own. My theory is Marquez can ride like no other, balls as big as they come. But Rossi rides with brains until, at some point, he needs more balls. At which point he did once, prior to PI and Sepang 15 at least, pull them out and ride all out. Laguna Seca the obvious example. Unfortunately, there’s been less of that since he joined Ducati, at which point he must of become aware he was no longer the alpha, thus his inevitable decline.
 
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birdman said:
History indicates 10 years at the top is about all any rider can manage before decline. Most seam to get to that point where they just say ok, that’s enough, time to retire. Rossi, imo, had it all a bit too good, a bit too easy, for the first 5. He had to work much harder for the next 2, but the main thing I remember regarding comments from Rossi was he didn’t enjoy riding against Stoner and Lorenzo the way he did against Gibernau and Biaggi. For me, that’s it in a nutshell. It’s no wonder the biggest problem he’s ever had then is with Marquez. Apparently the better the competition, the less Rossi enjoys it.

Granted that, the young Rossi vs Marquez would have been a wonderful spectacle and I think that version of Rossi, before he became a bit too full of himself, would have held his own. My theory is Marquez can ride like no other, balls as big as they come. But Rossi rides with brains until, at some point, he needs more balls. At which point he did once, prior to PI and Sepang 15 at least, pull them out and ride all out. Laguna Seca the obvious example. Unfortunately, there’s been less of that since he joined Ducati, at which point he must of become aware he was no longer the alpha, thus his inevitable decline.
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Mostly agree, although like the last corner at Jerez in 2005 with Gibernau at Laguna Seca with Stoner he was prepared to leave it up to Stoner who was on the racing line as he did with Gibernau for there not to be a collision, which would have been potentially quite dangerous at Laguna Seca at least. Stoner who is rather more thoughtful than people gave him credit for considered this an advantage Rossi had over him; as he said afterwards, when he did put the bike down in the sand later in the race after Rossi pretty much brake checked him he could have plowed into the back of Rossi which would have been to his advantage in the title race and no one could have had any complaint, but this was just not how he himself rolled.

Hubris did indeed meet nemesis when Rossi encountered Marquez, who in no way bowed to him in terms of ruthlessness and had the fearlessness/advantage of youth as well. 23 year old Rossi against 23 year old MM would indeed have been something.
 
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I think it's purely down to age, the fact that he's remained somewhat competitive for the last decade is impressive though.
 
AntG said:
I think it's purely down to age, the fact that he's remained somewhat competitive for the last decade is impressive though.
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Less impressive when you factor in the reality that till the spec Marelli ECU was introduced in 2016, there were generally only 4 bikes on the grid capable of winning a grand prix from 2011 thru 2015. Even after that, while we've had other manufacturers win races besides Honda and Yamaha, those two were considered the odds on favorite to win the constructor's title year in and year out. 2020 though being the notable exception as it was Honda's first winless season since 1981. But that aside, being on a Yamaha anyway has always ensured a competitive race weekend the majority of the time. The real question would have been, if Rossi had been on anything other than a Yamaha from 2013 thru 2020, what would his results look like? We already know from the Ducati adventure that he isn't overly competitive when he doesn't have a good base bike to ride. Even with a good base bike, he had one truly standout season, 2015. And even at that, down the stretch when he really needed to put results/wins together, he wasn't up to the task while Jorge was, hence Lorenzo winning the title and not Rossi. His inability to step up under pressure at that point in his career was how I knew he was done as a serious threat for a title permanently. Even the ability to win a lone race or even two, has passed on by. I'm purely of the opinion that he should have announced his retirement for 2020 and called it a day if nothing else. He's blocking more deserving riders from a seat on the grid by continuing to ride for what appears to be no other reason than to placate his enormous ego.
 
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Age has been a recent factor.
More than 4 competitive bikes since 2016 which means a better depth of competition, it has negatively impacted all the 'aliens' bar Marquez. If the conditions were the same in 2015 as they are now I doubt Rossi's strategy of finishing races and picking up the pieces when Lorenzo or Marquez fell off works well enough for him to be leading the title race in the last round. Consistency is still key but now a win generally means more than 5-9 points between you and your closest title rival.
Rossi lost dominance pretty much the moment control tyres were introduced, that factor can't be ruled out either.
 
p4p1 said:
Age has been a recent factor.
More than 4 competitive bikes since 2016 which means a better depth of competition, it has negatively impacted all the 'aliens' bar Marquez. If the conditions were the same in 2015 as they are now I doubt Rossi's strategy of finishing races and picking up the pieces when Lorenzo or Marquez fell off works well enough for him to be leading the title race in the last round. Consistency is still key but now a win generally means more than 5-9 points between you and your closest title rival.
Rossi lost dominance pretty much the moment control tyres were introduced, that factor can't be ruled out either.
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Irony can be rather ironic, as my brother who is an English teacher says. Rossi is probably largely responsible for the control tire rule, to stop unpopular riders such as Casey Stoner winning titles due to tire/bike "advantages."
 
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That piece of irony does bring into question the proposed cause effect, i.e., controlled tyres arrive and Rossi loses his dominance. Could easily be the new era of riders. Rossi is almost 3 generations removed.... that's the longevity he carries.
 
misfit said:
That piece of irony does bring into question the proposed cause effect, i.e., controlled tyres arrive and Rossi loses his dominance. Could easily be the new era of riders. Rossi is almost 3 generations removed.... that's the longevity he carries.
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I go both ways on this to a degree despite my bias. It remains meritorious that he contended so strongly in 2015 at age 37 given MM, Jorge, and Dani Pedrosa were also on factory Yamahas or Hondas, with DP affected by injury as was almost invariable over his career, and much younger, but in the end he wasn’t fast enough in the end of season races with DP back and healthy as has been said, whatever he or Uccio might claim about stolen titles.

He actually acceded to the discontinuation of the SNS tires as I recall, but I believe he was significantly responsible for control tires, insisting on having Bridgestones after 1 year of possible superiority over the Michelins on which he he had so prospered, including rumoured threats of quitting the sport. Ducati actually wanted to switch to Michelin rather than have a control tire not suited to their idiosyncratic bike. I don’t think there is much doubt he considered that the Ducati bike and the Bridgestone tires beat him rather than Casey Stoner. As I said at the time no-one on a Yamaha and Michelins could have beaten the 2007 Ducati ridden by Casey Stoner, but riding the thing like Casey Stoner was the difficulty, one Rossi didn’t recognise hence his disastrous Ducati adventure and pretty much the blighting of his latter career.
 
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michaelm said:
I go both ways on this to a degree despite my bias. It remains meritorious that he contended so strongly in 2015 at age 37 given MM, Jorge, and Dani Pedrosa were also on factory Yamahas or Hondas, with DP affected by injury as was almost invariable over his career, and much younger, but in the end he wasn’t fast enough in the end of season races with DP back and healthy as has been said, whatever he or Uccio might claim about stolen titles.

He actually acceded to the discontinuation of the SNS tires as I recall, but I believe he was significantly responsible for control tires, insisting on having Bridgestones after 1 year of possible superiority over the Michelins on which he he had so prospered, including rumoured threats of quitting the sport. Ducati actually wanted to switch to Michelin rather than have a control tire not suited to their idiosyncratic bike. I don’t think there is much doubt he considered that the Ducati bike and the Bridgestone tires beat him rather than Casey Stoner. As I said at the time no-one on a Yamaha and Michelins could have beaten the 2007 Ducati ridden by Casey Stoner, but riding the thing like Casey Stoner was the difficulty, one Rossi didn’t recognise hence his disastrous Ducati adventure and pretty much the blighting of his latter career.
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As JPS said, in 2015 there were 4 bikes that could win. The aliens would clear off at the beginning of the race never to be seen again. The only exception was Stoner on a Ducati during the control tyre period. As you said DP was out because of injuries, MM decided he needed to repeat 2014 on a bike that wasn't capable of it. Rossi was runner up next year though but at the time Yamaha had a clear advantage that would later be closed by Ducati. I'm not sure if Honda ever closed the advantage, last years results would indicate probably not. Ben Spies finished 5th in 2011 behind the 3 Repsol Honda's and Lorenzo, that's how important being on a factory Honda or Ducati was during that period, it guaranteed you a top 4/5 spot in the standings.
You have to wonder if control tyres had always been a thing how different the sports greatest riders would be.
 
I have to say I've never been a fan of control tyres or control ECU's, I've often thought it's at a detriment to the sport. Grand Prix motorcycle racing isn't just a competition for the riders but for the manufacturers and tyre companies. Having tyre brands that suited a particular track better than others made the racing more interesting in my opinion.
 
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AntG said:
I have to say I've never been a fan of control tyres or control ECU's, I've often thought it's at a detriment to the sport. Grand Prix motorcycle racing isn't just a competition for the riders but for the manufacturers and tyre companies. Having tyre brands that suited a particular track better than others made the racing more interesting in my opinion.
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One one level - I agree. However . . . much as I love to see factories trying to out-innovate each other, at some level, I find it a distraction from IMHO the most central aspect of the competition - ie.. the riders and their talents. When the disparity in mechanical competitiveness becomes too wide, it feels to me the sporting aspect becomes overshadowed by how much money the factories throw at the problem. I don't give a crap how much money they have to spend. That's all about a bunch of empty suits beating each other over the head with bags money. Not really a sport.
 
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Guess the years have finally caught up with my hero :)

Maybe it’s time for Casey Stoner to come back :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
JPSLotus said:
Less impressive when you factor in the reality that till the spec Marelli ECU was introduced in 2016, there were generally only 4 bikes on the grid capable of winning a grand prix from 2011 thru 2015. Even after that, while we've had other manufacturers win races besides Honda and Yamaha, those two were considered the odds on favorite to win the constructor's title year in and year out. 2020 though being the notable exception as it was Honda's first winless season since 1981. But that aside, being on a Yamaha anyway has always ensured a competitive race weekend the majority of the time. The real question would have been, if Rossi had been on anything other than a Yamaha from 2013 thru 2020, what would his results look like? We already know from the Ducati adventure that he isn't overly competitive when he doesn't have a good base bike to ride. Even with a good base bike, he had one truly standout season, 2015. And even at that, down the stretch when he really needed to put results/wins together, he wasn't up to the task while Jorge was, hence Lorenzo winning the title and not Rossi. His inability to step up under pressure at that point in his career was how I knew he was done as a serious threat for a title permanently. Even the ability to win a lone race or even two, has passed on by. I'm purely of the opinion that he should have announced his retirement for 2020 and called it a day if nothing else. He's blocking more deserving riders from a seat on the grid by continuing to ride for what appears to be no other reason than to placate his enormous ego.
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Or he just loves competing and still doesn't feel up to retiring. Most retirements that I've witnessed have been down to loss of interest leading to a loss of competitiveness, admixed with an inner acknowledgement and readiness, it seemed, to move on. Rossi isn't there yet. He is breaking records with his longevity as records are to be broken and still adds some entertainment value, in whatever form that would be. Nothing wrong with that.
 
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misfit said:
Or he just loves competing and still doesn't feel up to retiring. Most retirements that I've witnessed have been down to loss of interest leading to a loss of competitiveness, admixed with an inner acknowledgement and readiness, it seemed, to move on. Rossi isn't there yet. He is breaking records with his longevity as records are to be broken and still adds some entertainment value, in whatever form that would be. Nothing wrong with that.
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Thing is... there's a limited number of bikes of that caliber and if Rossi isn't capable of realizing it's potential, he's essentially there to amuse himself, which is not particularly gratifying to those who watch him floundering around way back in the pack. It doesn't really serve the sport. It's just all about feeding his vanity and enabling his denial of the reality of aging. Seeing him race has about the same appeal as watching 70 year-old hooker in hot pants, tube top and 9" heels strutting on the avenue.
 
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