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Yamahas woes

synn said:
The great things about statistics is that they can be anything you want them to be.

Let's take the first 6 years in each rider's premier class career:

Rossi: 5 world championships, 1 runner up
Lorenzo: 2 world championships, 2 runner ups
Casey Stoner: 2 world championships, 1 runner up
Marc Marquez: Only 5 years yet in the world championships. 4 world championships, 1 third place.

Even if Marquez wins the 2018 world title, Rossi has a better record. Lorenzo and Stoner don't even compare.

Forum logic says that Rossi sucks and all of the others are the best ever, though!
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Against the same competition which is the only fair comparison

2007-2012
Rossi vs Stoner
2 titles each
21 wins vs 38 wins

2008- current
Rossi vs Lorenzo
2 championships vs 3 championships
27 wins vs 44 wins

2013-current
Rossi vs Marquez
0 championships vs 4 championships
10 wins vs 35 wins.

Only Rossi had the biggest bike advantage we've seen since MV wiped the floor with everyone during one year. Only Rossi was getting tyres tailored to his likes and data out of these guys. Comparing their first 6 years is a ridiculous argument when none of the others enjoyed the same advantages as Rossi and those before him. His head to head record in the same conditions against the same guys is not as good as you would expect from the 'GOAT' even if he record against Marquez reflects his current age.
 
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synn said:
As far as I understand, Rossi and Burgess were given a clean slate at Yamaha. They could name what they wanted and Yamaha would build it.

They thought they would get that at Ducati, they didn't. Only after Rossi and Crutchlow left did Ducati realize they need to change their approach. It then took some creative concessions claiming a Gigi D'aligna and some catfish whiskers (And later, some hollow milk cartons) to right that ship.
Click to expand...

I would say Ducati ditching their traditional trellis frame for a twin bar aluminium frame is pretty close to giving him a clean slate. I don't know what else you could expect them to do. The problem was that Rossi didn't want to stay the course and fix the bike, he wanted it fixed overnight. Ducati kept throwing parts at it but with Rossi wanting a quick fix the bike was never going to improve especially after they started from scratch with a totally different frame.
 
p4p1 said:
Against the same competition which is the only fair comparison

2007-2012
Rossi vs Stoner
2 titles each
21 wins vs 38 wins

Rossi vs Lorenzo
2 championships vs 3 championships
27 wins vs 44 wins

Rossi vs Marquez
0 championships vs 4 championships
10 wins vs 35 wins.

Only Rossi had the biggest bike advantage we've seen since MV wiped the floor with everyone during one year. Only Rossi was getting tyres tailored to his likes and data out of these guys. Comparing their first 6 years is a ridiculous argument when none of the others enjoyed the same advantages as Rossi and those before him. His head to head record in the same conditions against the same guys is not as good as you would expect from the 'GOAT' even if he record against Marquez reflects his current age.
Click to expand...


I would like to compare Giacomo Agostini vs Rossi when they were competing against each other.

Oh wait, I can't! They never raced at the same time!
You compare sportsmen at their prime. If Marquez or Stoner were active when Rossi was at his best, feel free to compare them.

On the other hand, I would be very curious to see what Marquez's stats are at 38 (If his body lasts that long).
 
synn said:
It all started out fine until some ..... thought it would be good to call me a bopper or whatever. You start that ...., don’t get too upset when it is returned with interest.

I have posted enough logical arguments earlier in the thread and one guy, definitely not the sharpest knife in the drawer decided to call them fairy tales and dismiss the whole post.

Reading is hard, I know. But don’t blame me for your failings.
Click to expand...

We'll be the judge of that.
 
synn said:
As far as I understand, Rossi and Burgess were given a clean slate at Yamaha. They could name what they wanted and Yamaha would build it.

They thought they would get that at Ducati, they didn't. Only after Rossi and Crutchlow left did Ducati realize they need to change their approach. It then took some creative concessions claiming a Gigi D'aligna and some catfish whiskers (And later, some hollow milk cartons) to right that ship.
Click to expand...

You understand wrong.

Rossi picked the right bike of the options offered him, not the intuitive choice but a choice with which Furusawa who designed the thing in his absence agreed. Yamaha hadn't even designed a 4 stroke engine from scratch before then, having previously made do with a cobbled together device. Bad blood with HRC meant Rossi didn't even get to test till quite late. He rode the thing magnificently as was his wont back then, and it is hard to imagine it was superior out of the box to the design icon that was the Honda V5 990 bike.
 
Little Walter said:
Ahh. When I hear ripostes of that caliber it makes me nostalgic, like I should have graham crackers and milk and lie down on my cot and take a nap. Then later we can play with blocks!
Click to expand...


Hey Walter, you're supposed to sell the blue meth, not smoke it.
 
synn said:
I would like to compare Giacomo Agostini vs Rossi when they were competing against each other.

Oh wait, I can't! They never raced at the same time!
You compare sportsmen at their prime. If Marquez or Stoner were active when Rossi was at his best, feel free to compare them.

On the other hand, I would be very curious to see what Marquez's stats are at 38 (If his body lasts that long).
Click to expand...

Hopefully he will be happy with all he has achieved before then, reject the perpetual adolescent option, get on with his life and let those who have inherited his legacy take the sport onwards.
 
synn said:
The great things about statistics is that they can be anything you want them to be.

Let's take the first 6 years in each rider's premier class career:

Rossi: 5 world championships, 1 runner up
Lorenzo: 2 world championships, 2 runner ups
Casey Stoner: 2 world championships, 1 runner up
Marc Marquez: Only 5 years yet in the world championships. 4 world championships, 1 third place.

Even if Marquez wins the 2018 world title, Rossi has a better record. Lorenzo and Stoner don't even compare.

Forum logic says that Rossi sucks and all of the others are the best ever, though!
Click to expand...

The great thing about being a bopper is, like all religious fanatics, you are free to ignore any fact that doesn't support your agenda. And make up fairy tales to sell your .........
 
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michaelm said:
Hopefully he will be happy with all he has achieved before then, reject the perpetual adolescent option, get on with his life and let those who have inherited his legacy take the sport onwards.
Click to expand...


Considering that with the VR46 academy and the Sky VR teams, Rossi has brought several young riders into the world championship arena (Including someone like Morbidelli, who did not get the opportunities to rise up through the normal feeder series), he has already done more for the coming generation of riders than any of his peers.
 
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synn said:
I would like to compare Giacomo Agostini vs Rossi when they were competing against each other.

Oh wait, I can't! They never raced at the same time!
You compare sportsmen at their prime. If Marquez or Stoner were active when Rossi was at his best, feel free to compare them.

On the other hand, I would be very curious to see what Marquez's stats are at 38 (If his body lasts that long).
Click to expand...

How old were Gibernau and Biaggi when Rossi races them compared to how old Rossi was when Stoner and Lorenzo were beating them? Or even during Marquez's first couple of years?

How old was Doohan when he wiped the floor with everyone? Or Ago during his last championship? The mind doesn't change that much in your 30s I'm sorry but as long as guys that win world titles in a sport like boxing or MMA + countless other sports where age is a bigger factor than Motorsport then the age excuse is really pretty weak.

Marquez stats at 38 will be irrelevant if he continues on the path he's is looking like he will be on as he will have probably equaled Agos records before then. He's winning during an era of unequaled parity between manufacturers and he's doing it against the strongest field in a long time. Strength of competition is extremely important when considering someone's stats
 
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No one is arguing that, He has done a lot for up and coming talent. However there are also plenty of others like Alberto Puig who mentored Pedrosa, Stoner to name just two.
 
synn said:
Considering that with the VR46 academy and the Sky VR teams, Rossi has brought more young riders into the world championship arena (Including someone like Morbidelli, who did not get the opportunities to rise up through the normal feeder series), he has already done more for the coming generation of riders than any of his peers.
Click to expand...

And here was I talking about MM in answer to your direct question. Why did you feel the need to bring Rossi into it?.

If Morbidlelli goes on to be a great of the sport more power to him, and Rossi may well deserve credit. It hasn’t Happened yet though. Meanwhile the 4 riders not named Rossi who have won premier class tiles in the last 17 seasons, 10 of them to be precise, 2 of those riders likely top 10 riders ever and one of them very possibly Rossi’s peer, have have had their careers blighted and their achievements discredited.
 
synn said:
Yes, one year of going backwards over more than a decade of the opposite.
Quite the sabotage. Lay off the pipe, will ya?
Click to expand...

Interesting you say that as for 8 years or 80% of that decade Rossi has been nowhere. Meanwhile Lorrenzo has 3 yes 3 Championships wrapped up, me thinks Sir you are one arsehole quoting your "facts". The fact is Rossi has done nothing since 2009 that has improved Yamaha's product, yet he is the one that consistently screws up his team mates chances.
I think you'd be better off on the custard crews web site, they love people like you.
 

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