WSBK Rd3: Assen

valerian · Apr 18, 2011

Two lovely passes by Checa in the 2nd race. The first one was especially lovely as you could see him setting it up from a long way back. Lovely stuff.

As for WBSK, I'm a motogp man so I cheer on the ex-motogp guys by and large. Of the Brits, I tend to think that this is their level and that they are not quite good enough for GPs which is probably more due to their racing background than to any lack of talent as I suspect it's easier to go from GP to SBK than the other way round.

Tom · Apr 18, 2011

Shout out to Chaz, kept cool after a practice crash and then 2 restarts, seemingly getting srtonger and more authoritive each time. Well in the title hunt too, because i can't see it being one by anyone who isn't on one of those 2 Yamahas. Monza should suit them, and i am hoping Chaz will gain strength from his first win for a while.

povol · Apr 18, 2011

Tom said:
I agree that Spies injected a lot of excitement into world superbike because riders coming up through the superbike ranks to major success is relatively rare and was refreshing. But i totally disagree with the idea that he dominated, you cannot dominate from behind and you cannot dominate without consistency. No matter what the reasons were, the fact that the title battle went to the wire means that no one rider dominated. For me domination has to be relentless success in all circumstances, an ominous succession of results that leave the competion fairly hopeless. Haga lined up at the final round with a very reasonable chance of being champion, as far as i am concerned that fact alone negates any talk of domination.

Agree and disagree, is that possible?

From one perspective, he did dominate from behind, and he dominated Haga. From the only perspective that counts, which is the season, i can see your point. I just think you have to be a little dominant to overcome an 80 point deficit. Haga had some bad luck, but unlike Spies, the majority of his were self inflicted.

Tom · Apr 18, 2011

povol said:
Agree and disagree, is that possible?

From one perspective, he did dominate from behind, and he dominated Haga. From the only perspective that counts, which is the season, i can see your point. I just think you have to be a little dominant to overcome an 80 point deficit. Haga had some bad luck, but unlike Spies, the majority of his were self inflicted.

I was agreeing with one point you made and not with another. But although i see where you are coming from i just don't think dominate is the right choice of word by any stretch. He may have dominated individual races, weekends or even portions of the season, but to dominate the season points accumulation needs to be superior to the competitors. Rossi overhauled a lot of Nicky's lead in 06 but i'd never say Rossi dominated that season, because it was open untill the very end. On the other hand, 09 wasn't a wsbk 2002 style straight scrap between two guys every weekend. The word i'd use for Spies 2009 season would be distinguished, in the sence that he had a class and authority to the way he went about it, but didn't have the results to dominate as such.

bigbang · Apr 18, 2011

Austin said:
A question that's not asked enough is "What would Biaggi have done on an 800?"

He would have not done anything. In his last two MotoGP seasons he won a grand total of 1 race. Not to mention even Hayden beat him decisively in 2005.

Arrabbiata1 · Apr 18, 2011

bigbang said:
He would have not done anything. In his last two MotoGP seasons he won a grand total of 1 race. Not to mention even Hayden beat him decisively in 2005.

You completely miss the point

Jumkie · Apr 18, 2011

I couldn't stay awake during the races (granted, I was operating on 3 hours of sleep after spending all day watching open wheel racing in Long beach). I'm glad Rea won race one. But even then, I just can't get excited when seeing Checa lead or win. I think him leading the points goes a long way in showing something is wrong with the series. Is it devoid of real parity and depth in talent? Its a question, not a statement.

bigbang said:
He would have not done anything. In his last two MotoGP seasons he won a grand total of 1 race. Not to mention even Hayden beat him decisively in 2005.

Arrabbiata1' timestamp='1303162606' post='275748 said:

You completely miss the point

Click to expand...

Bigbang (I take it you got your name from the cosmic moment everything began to evolve...) I don't think you are understanding the nuance in Austin's question. I think we can all agree that Biaggi was an amazing 250 rider. We can also agree that Biaggi is one of the most smooth in-line riders of any that come to mind. That's exactly how 800s have been described as suiting the rider that can exploit it for these characteristics. I think Biaggi, if given proper support, would have done very well. But where? The only competitive and ridable 800s were either Honda or Yamaha. Would Pedro have been able to suck all the life out of Biaggi's development? I certainly doubt he would have had a seat with Yamaha if Rossi had any say about it.

Good questions to ponder.

bigbang · Apr 18, 2011

Jumkie said:
Bigbang (I take it you got your name from the cosmic moment everything began to evolve...) I don't think you are understanding the nuance in Austin's question. I think we can all agree that Biaggi was an amazing 250 rider. We can also agree that Biaggi is one of the most smooth in-line riders of any that come to mind. That's exactly how 800s have been described as suiting the rider that can exploit it for these characteristics. I think Biaggi, if given proper support, would have done very well.

Biaggi was good in 250 but lets not forget that he was sitting on a dominant Aprilia. When he switched to Honda in his last year of 250, Waldmann matched him. But anyway this "800s need to be ridden like a 250" is largely a myth. Just an example: Melandri who was also a great 250 rider did better much better on the 1000s than with the 800s.

Jumkie · Apr 18, 2011

bigbang said:
Biaggi was good in 250 but lets not forget that he was sitting on a dominant Aprilia. When he switched to Honda in his last year of 250, Waldmann matched him. But anyway this "800s need to be ridden like a 250" is largely a myth. Just an example: Melandri who was also a great 250 rider did better much better on the 1000s than with the 800s.

Considering that four of the best performers on the platform were world champs in 250s and one runner up, I'm not so sure I'd agree.

bigbang said:
Aprilia is a real rocket on the straight. When Biaggi was passing, from Checa's onboard it looked as if he was going double the speed!

I wonder why Biaggi didn't win then. Surely, he should have won being that speed/power is the 'fundament' of racing performance on a motorcycle.

(inside joke bigbag, pay me no mind)

bigbang · Apr 18, 2011

Jumkie said:
Considering that four of the best performers on the platform were world champs in 250s and one runner up, I'm not so sure I'd agree.

Well but that's because those guys are all hugely talented. My point is that they would adapt and win on any type of bikes. (You can't really expect that Rossi would lose in 250 to Ukawa or that Stoner would finish 8th in the 250s right?)

bigbang · Apr 18, 2011

Jumkie said:
I wonder why Biaggi didn't win then.

That's because he did not close the door on the only place in the circuit where Checa could pass

Austin · Apr 18, 2011

bigbang said:
He would have not done anything. In his last two MotoGP seasons he won a grand total of 1 race. Not to mention even Hayden beat him decisively in 2005.

Thank you, Arrab. He never went terribly well on the 990s because they didn't suit his style. He's never been more than above average when he's forced to slide etc. With the wheels in-line, there aren't many faster than him. Like I said earlier, very Lorenzo-esque. Think he could've been a force on an 800 if it came in in 2002 instead of 990s. Shame we missed out on what could have been some stellar riding. But that's life.

povol · Apr 18, 2011

Tom said:
I was agreeing with one point you made and not with another. But although i see where you are coming from i just don't think dominate is the right choice of word by any stretch. He may have dominated individual races, weekends or even portions of the season, but to dominate the season points accumulation needs to be superior to the competitors. Rossi overhauled a lot of Nicky's lead in 06 but i'd never say Rossi dominated that season, because it was open untill the very end. On the other hand, 09 wasn't a wsbk 2002 style straight scrap between two guys every weekend. The word i'd use for Spies 2009 season would be distinguished, in the sence that he had a class and authority to the way he went about it, but didn't have the results to dominate as such.

Fair enough, then i assume that you disagree with Austins comment as well, 'Not only was 2002 the greatest Superbike season of all time, I think Edwards dominated that series as has never been seen before or since.. He was consistent,but had less wins than the guy he beat for the title.

bigbang · Apr 18, 2011

Austin said:
Thank you, Arrab. He never went terribly well on the 990s because they didn't suit his style. He's never been more than above average when he's forced to slide etc. With the wheels in-line, there aren't many faster than him. Like I said earlier, very Lorenzo-esque. Think he could've been a force on an 800 if it came in in 2002 instead of 990s. Shame we missed out on what could have been some stellar riding. But that's life.

The good old style excuse. A great rider adapts to everything, 250, 500, 990, 800, superbikes whatever.. Biaggi would not have come close to Rossi, Stoner et comp on a 800cc. He would probably win a race or two but that's it. Btw is there actually any rider who went considerably better on a 800 than a 990?

mylexicon · Apr 18, 2011

Austin said:
Thank you, Arrab. He never went terribly well on the 990s because they didn't suit his style. He's never been more than above average when he's forced to slide etc. With the wheels in-line, there aren't many faster than him. Like I said earlier, very Lorenzo-esque. Think he could've been a force on an 800 if it came in in 2002 instead of 990s. Shame we missed out on what could have been some stellar riding. But that's life.

I think it would have been interesting to see what he could have done in 2006. The got rid of 2L of fuel for 2006 which completely changed the sport. It rendered Rossi and Yamaha vulnerable, it changed tire design, and it made lots of people competitive. If Max had been able to collect himself, it would have been fascinating to see what happened if he were on a Honda.

Jumkie · Apr 18, 2011

bigbang said:
The good old style excuse. A great rider adapts to everything, 250, 500, 990, 800, superbikes whatever.. Biaggi would not have come close to Rossi, Stoner et comp on a 800cc. He would probably win a race or two but that's it. Btw is there actually any rider who went considerably better on a 800 than a 990?

Biggy, its really not worth arguing. These arnt the GP threads, most of us are sane around these parts of the boards.

So u dont think Biaggi would hav faired in 800s. Ok, thats fine. Some of us do, and for the reasons we've said. To answer ur question above, Pedro, Stoner, & Lorenzo hav had allmost ALL their success on 800s, thats coming straight from 250s.

U may be right about 250 style favoring 800 as "a myth"; HOWEVER, that would be contrary to not only spectator opinion, but current rider, professional commentor, and past rider's opinion as well.

mylexicon · Apr 18, 2011

Tom said:
Shout out to Chaz, kept cool after a practice crash and then 2 restarts, seemingly getting srtonger and more authoritive each time. Well in the title hunt too, because i can't see it being one by anyone who isn't on one of those 2 Yamahas. Monza should suit them, and i am hoping Chaz will gain strength from his first win for a while.

For sure. Scassa did him a favor to erase the puncture Chaz suffered at PI. Chaz is one of the best riders in the entire WSBK/WSS paddock. He'll show it when someone gives him a decent SBK ride.

Mari, you got anymore pics?

bigbang · Apr 18, 2011

Jumkie said:
To answer ur question above, Pedro, Stoner, & Lorenzo hav had allmost ALL their success on 800s, thats coming straight from 250s.

okay but how does that answer my question? Let's take Pedrosa, he won 2 races on a 990 in 2006, he won 2 races on a 800 in 2007, then he won 2 races on a 800 in 2008, then he won 2 races on a 800 in 2009... and only last year he started to win more. Stoner had one season in on a privatee Honda, Lorenzo never raced on a 990. My point is that for all we know we know those guys would have been just as successful on 990s as they were on the 800s. Remember the claim was that Biaggi would have done well on the 800s. IMO Stoner and Lorenzo would have beaten him easily every year.

Jumkie · Apr 18, 2011

I just saw the races again (this time awake). Wow, they actually were pretty exciting.

I know Levi won't like this but...Haga is done.

Bigbang, ok, we would have never known either way.

heyhuub · Apr 18, 2011

Jumkie said:
I couldn't stay awake during the races (granted, I was operating on 3 hours of sleep after spending all day watching open wheel racing in Long beach). I'm glad Rea won race one. But even then, I just can't get excited when seeing Checa lead or win. I think him leading the points goes a long way in showing something is wrong with the series. Is it devoid of real parity and depth in talent? Its a question, not a statement.

Bigbang (I take it you got your name from the cosmic moment everything began to evolve...) I don't think you are understanding the nuance in Austin's question. I think we can all agree that Biaggi was an amazing 250 rider. We can also agree that Biaggi is one of the most smooth in-line riders of any that come to mind. That's exactly how 800s have been described as suiting the rider that can exploit it for these characteristics. I think Biaggi, if given proper support, would have done very well. But where? The only competitive and ridable 800s were either Honda or Yamaha. Would Pedro have been able to suck all the life out of Biaggi's development? I certainly doubt he would have had a seat with Yamaha if Rossi had any say about it.

Good questions to ponder.

Do remember that he got on the podium on his very first full time GP ride. He also finsihed 4th in 1998 behind Doohan, Biaggi and Criville all the while missing 3 races. I believe he even led the championship in the first 5 races back in 2000.

Up until 2006 he's always been a top 5 runner, sometimes worse, sometimes bettter. Doing this while pretty much always being on a Yamaha, certainly not considered to be the best bike on the grid during those days.

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WSBK Rd3: Assen

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