WSBK Rd3: Assen

Marijke · Apr 17, 2011

what a day

days like this remind me why I like motorsports so much

we sat at the winterdijk, near the GT corner. great spot: smrz and his teammate crashed right infront of us, plenty of overtaking etc. superstock was fun, some stunt rider was up after that, lots of fun to see what does people can do with their bikes. thought this was the coolest thing he did with his triumph:

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first wsbk race was cool, very entertaining. rea was very happy with his podium, he did a breakdance right infront of us.

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supersport was such an horrific race with 2 times red flags! the 2nd red flag situation was quite scary, we saw it happening live, right in front of us. was such a relief to hear all riders were alive (it looked very serious)

2nd race was ok. took THE pic of the day when checa passed haga, with biaggi in the background:

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when biaggi overtook checa like, 3 or 4 laps before the finish, checa missed his gear! first time I actually heared it happening, I asked my dad 'wtf happend' and BAM biaggi was infront of checa. so glad biaggi didnt win

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rea's burnout

and the winner:

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weather was lovely, people around us were all friendly (met a couple of cool brits! and some czech people

) saw a 'little' person on a bike which was very funny in a respectfull way to see (it looked like he was standing behind the motorblock lol!) and my personal fav: I asked my dad if we could go +200km p/h for a change, just so I could check it off my 'try before you die'-list

we went 210 km p/h (130 m p/h) so a big YAY for me

Talpa · Apr 17, 2011

Great Pics!!

Great racing, well done old bull and young bull. That Aprilia still has so go over the rest though.....

Talpa · Apr 17, 2011

levigarrett said:
The success of the Ducati this season is certainly odd. I can't fathom that it's simply the result of a weight change to the bike. Last season Ducati's SBK effort seemed to be without direction. Haga and Fabrizio never appeared to particularly get along and the team was without leadership. Additionally, Haga seemed to be beaten, I'm not so sure he had the effort in him last year and all of these factors came together to scuttle the team.

Checca seems to be in a very different place. He's alone on the team, with factory support and a fair amount of experience on the machine. He's also exuding the confidence of someone who believe's he's got what it takes. Haga had very little of that last year. Checca is getting every ounce from the machine and thus far has failed to make a mistake on track. We'll see if that continues.

On the other side of this is Biaggi? What's his problem so far? We know the bike is solid yet he's done almost nothing to help himself. I think Marco will be there all season long and will challenge for the title. I like the way season is coming together.

Jumkie,

As for why there's little action here? Simply, no boppers. Most bop's can hardly name the entire grid in MotoGP and will certainly be unfamiliar with SBK.

With no interest in moto-racing that does not include Rossi, they're absent from these threads. Additionally, you had the sudden American interest created by Speez in 09 and without him, his fanboy's are also absent. That leaves us!

Well lets just say, its not as 'controversial' and here, also of Note there are no boners either-you conveniently failed to mention

not to say that most aren't watching.........I having missed a WSBK round in 8 years, and have been an avid fan since Troy Corser's WC win in 1996, when Ant Gobert two-wheel slid the ZX7R into HondaHP for most of the race at PI.

Talpa · Apr 17, 2011

Arrabbiata1 said:
Well he was fast once....amid all that crashing....which was always spectacular. He put a very good run together towards the end of 2001 on the factory Ducati - in the process becoming the first Spaniard to win a WSB race, finished second to Hodgson in '03, and actually podiumed in Moto GP at Qatar in '04 on the Dantin Ducati which was no mean feat. Since then admittedly he has largely specialised in ingesting gravel.

Ruben is the only rider that I can think of that I have seen crash in both the warm up and cool down laps of a race. At Laguna in '02 he crashed twice on the warm up lap of Race 2, and I recall a failed burnout celebration in '03 I think having won a race somewhere in Europe.

Then of course, there was this........

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Possibly one of the greatest shots in Motorcycling........

Much like this one.......

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Austin · Apr 17, 2011

povol said:
The kid came in and captured everyones imagination with what to me, was the most dominant season ever put together.

I disagree with your opinion. Spies finished on the podium 16 times out of 28 races. Of his six non-scores, you've got him down for four that were not his fault, three of which you think he could win. Let's just say he podiums all four of those, he's at 20 of 28. Impressive for sure, especially considering he's never seen the vast majority of those tracks before. BUT, in 2002, Colin Edwards finished on the podium in 25 of 26 races and won 11. Against Bayliss and Hodgson and Xaus, probably stronger competition than Haga and Fabrizio and Biaggi and Rea. Not only was 2002 the greatest Superbike season of all time, I think Edwards dominated that series as has never been seen before or since.

bigbang said:
1000cc won't do nothing, it's the electronics that kills racing... btw great win by Rea in race 1..

Like Arrab said, riders and techies in the paddock are optimistic that the torque will allow for a variety of lines. The electronics are always going to be there, so we probably won't see the smoking rears despite all the torque. Although what could be more intrusive is tuning those engines so lean as to get 21L from 1000cc four banger. But with the added torque, there should be more late braking and squared up lines. That's the hope anyways, and from what I've read, it's reasonable to assume that will be the case.

Talpa · Apr 17, 2011

Austin said:
I disagree with your opinion. Spies finished on the podium 16 times out of 28 races. Of his six non-scores, you've got him down for four that were not his fault, three of which you think he could win. Let's just say he podiums all four of those, he's at 20 of 28. Impressive for sure, especially considering he's never seen the vast majority of those tracks before. BUT, in 2002, Colin Edwards finished on the podium in 25 of 26 races and won 11. Against Bayliss and Hodgson and Xaus, probably stronger competition than Haga and Fabrizio and Biaggi and Rea. Not only was 2002 the greatest Superbike season of all time, I think Edwards dominated that series as has never been seen before or since.

Like Arrab said, riders and techies in the paddock are optimistic that the torque will allow for a variety of lines. The electronics are always going to be there, so we probably won't see the smoking rears despite all the torque. Although what could be more intrusive is tuning those engines so lean as to get 21L from 1000cc four banger. But with the added torque, there should be more late braking and squared up lines. That's the hope anyways, and from what I've read, it's reasonable to assume that will be the case.

Squared-up lines is going to take some adjustment for Jorge, the Americans should feature much more prominently if your theory holds weight into next season. IMO at least a different approach to lines will not have such disastrous consequences as it has done on the 800's.....Hopefully benefiting many more styles-not just 4....

michaelm · Apr 17, 2011

Talpa said:
Squared-up lines is going to take some adjustment for Jorge, the Americans should feature much more prominently if your theory holds weight into next season. IMO at least a different approach to lines will not have such disastrous consequences as it has done on the 800's.....Hopefully benefiting many more styles-not just 4....

Both the wsbk in recent seasons and the F1 race on the week-end demonstrate that perhaps the biggest stimulus to racing in motogp would be to switch to pirelli as the control tyre provider; bridgestone's control tyre would seem to be too good, in terms of longevity anyway.

Don't know how that ducati won against the aprilia power advantage

.

povol · Apr 17, 2011

Austin said:
I disagree with your opinion. Spies finished on the podium 16 times out of 28 races. Of his six non-scores, you've got him down for four that were not his fault, three of which you think he could win. Let's just say he podiums all four of those, he's at 20 of 28. Impressive for sure, especially considering he's never seen the vast majority of those tracks before. BUT, in 2002, Colin Edwards finished on the podium in 25 of 26 races and won 11. Against Bayliss and Hodgson and Xaus, probably stronger competition than Haga and Fabrizio and Biaggi and Rea. Not only was 2002 the greatest Superbike season of all time, I think Edwards dominated that series as has never been seen before or since.

Like Arrab said, riders and techies in the paddock are optimistic that the torque will allow for a variety of lines. The electronics are always going to be there, so we probably won't see the smoking rears despite all the torque. Although what could be more intrusive is tuning those engines so lean as to get 21L from 1000cc four banger. But with the added torque, there should be more late braking and squared up lines. That's the hope anyways, and from what I've read, it's reasonable to assume that will be the case.

And thats exactly why i said "It was a special season for Spies, but could have been put on a pedestal without debate"

I had the 2002 season in mind when i made that statement, because as you say, Edwards season was one for the ages, and as it stands, there can be debate between which was more impressive. I tend to weigh wins much heavier than podiums, and Spies had more wins. For you, podiums hold weight, which they should, since the number of podiums, not wins, ultimately won the title for Edwards. Spies could have just as easily ended up with 18 wins instead of the 14 he got, which would have ended any debate of the better season. Lets just say the 2 best seasons in the history of the series involved 2 American riders coming from way down in points and winning the title against prohibitive favorites.

mylexicon · Apr 17, 2011

Talpa said:
Squared-up lines is going to take some adjustment for Jorge, the Americans should feature much more prominently if your theory holds weight into next season. IMO at least a different approach to lines will not have such disastrous consequences as it has done on the 800's.....Hopefully benefiting many more styles-not just 4....

I've been giving it a lot of thought, and I think the lines are actually going to be less square.

Sounds crazy, but I think the 1000s are going to be like giant 250s. Fast in. Little bit of throttle at the apex to help turn the bike. Fast out, and then pick the bike up as you reach the curbing. The 800s already have a propensity to wheelie in the first 4 gears already. Imagine what is going to happen when you increase stroke by 30% and capacity by 25%.

The lines the aliens ride right now are unique to MotoGP b/c no other series on earth has the same tires or the same power from a high-revving short stroke 800cc engine. Most of the riders still haven't figured out how to replicate the lines the aliens ride, but all MotoGP riders came from 250s or 600s. If unmanageable torque makes 250cc lines possible, I think we will see more people run at the front.

It will be interesting to see who the biggest winners are. Imo, Simoncelli is going to benefit most.

mylexicon · Apr 17, 2011

Austin said:
I disagree with your opinion. Spies finished on the podium 16 times out of 28 races. Of his six non-scores, you've got him down for four that were not his fault, three of which you think he could win. Let's just say he podiums all four of those, he's at 20 of 28. Impressive for sure, especially considering he's never seen the vast majority of those tracks before. BUT, in 2002, Colin Edwards finished on the podium in 25 of 26 races and won 11.

AND he won 9 races in a row to take down the title.

While we are talking about the exploits of Texan superbikers, let's not forget the 1991 season when Polen set the previous consecutive-poles-record and notched 17 wins (still the single season record) on his way to a 150pt margin of victory.

Spies is probably the 3rd best. Third best in the world? No, third best superbiker in Texas.

Geonerd · Apr 17, 2011

Arrabbiata1 said:
True, but with the increase in torque we may see some alternative lines emerging again and it may possibly allow riders to brake deeper into a corner once more.

Hope you're right, but suspect otherwise. I'm pretty sure that lines that emphasize higher corner speed burn less fuel than the old 'square it off and nail it' approach. Will the 21liter fuel limit essentially force the riders to follow 250 lines around the corners for much of the race? If so, the bikes will have to be set up with this in mind. A rider could try point-n-squirt on occasion, but the bike might not like it.

Austin · Apr 18, 2011

Talpa said:
Squared-up lines is going to take some adjustment for Jorge, the Americans should feature much more prominently if your theory holds weight into next season. IMO at least a different approach to lines will not have such disastrous consequences as it has done on the 800's.....Hopefully benefiting many more styles-not just 4....

I don't think it's a case of one or the other. The continuing development of electronics, coupled with the fuel restrictions, should mean that high cornerspeeds will continue to be an effective method. I think that's the point of the 1000s, to get some variation in riding. If you have more lines for riders to choose from, the racing should be less processional. In theory. Who knows what will happen in practical application. I'm still keeping my fingers crossed.

povol said:
And thats exactly why i said "It was a special season for Spies, but could have been put on a pedestal without debate"

I had the 2002 season in mind when i made that statement, because as you say, Edwards season was one for the ages, and as it stands, there can be debate between which was more impressive. I tend to weigh wins much heavier than podiums, and Spies had more wins. For you, podiums hold weight, which they should, since the number of podiums, not wins, ultimately won the title for Edwards. Spies could have just as easily ended up with 18 wins instead of the 14 he got, which would have ended any debate of the better season. Lets just say the 2 best seasons in the history of the series involved 2 American riders coming from way down in points and winning the title against prohibitive favorites.

Yeah, fair enough. Like I said, it's just an opinion. But yes, two of the greatest seasons ever put together by any rider.

cliche guevara · Apr 18, 2011

come on ,this thread is about wsbk

was checa always this good

?

possibly he got better and the ducati is as good as ever but i don't know, i don't feel comfortable if motogp dropouts dominate the series

truent · Apr 18, 2011

cliché guevara said:
come on ,this thread is about wsbk

was checa always this good

?

possibly he got better and the ducati is as good as ever but i don't know, i don't feel comfortable if motogp dropouts dominate the series

Hah, well he's always done pretty well on the ducati.. but race 2 was awesome for him.. went a little wide and biaggi got him, but he played it cool and got him.. i'm really happy for him as he's always been a bit of a second tier contender.. and a real class act.. so i hope he keeps it up, this may be his chance for a world title..

cliche guevara · Apr 18, 2011

truent said:
Hah, well he's always done pretty well on the ducati.. but race 2 was awesome for him.. went a little wide and biaggi got him, but he played it cool and got him.. i'm really happy for him as he's always been a bit of a second tier contender.. and a real class act.. so i hope he keeps it up, this may be his chance for a world title..

i'm not so sure whether biaggi acutally got him!

checa lifted his upper body very very early, it seemed to me like he was letting biaggi by intentionally and then passed him earlier than biaggi expected, shoved him wide,and used that advantage to stay clear off him in the last lap

it sure was a brilliant strategy if it really was as planned as it seemed to me!

don't get me wrong, i like checa, always have . but what will wins from biaggi and checa say about the level of riders in wsbk?

they maybe fully fit and as good as ever but to most followers it will appear like the old riders that couldnt do it in gp will do a cake walk to the title in wsbk.

and i like superbikes too much to accept those comments

Austin · Apr 18, 2011

cliché guevara said:
i'm not so sure whether biaggi acutally got him!

checa lifted his upper body very very early, it seemed to me like he was letting biaggi by intentionally and then passed him earlier than biaggi expected, shoved him wide,and used that advantage to stay clear off him in the last lap

it sure was a brilliant strategy if it really was as planned as it seemed to me!

don't get me wrong, i like checa, always have . but what will wins from biaggi and checa say about the level of riders in wsbk?

they maybe fully fit and as good as ever but to most followers it will appear like the old riders that couldnt do it in gp will do a cake walk to the title in wsbk.

and i like superbikes too much to accept those comments

I forget where I read it, might even be in this thread but I can't be arsed to go searching, but I read that Checa said he made a mistake and that's why Biaggi got by. He had the measure of it the whole way.

I don't think it's about GP exiles dominating the series, I think you have two very talented riders who have fallen into circumstances that have really benefitted them. Biaggi got a lifeline at Aprilia and the RSV4 turned out to be not only the best bike on the grid, but the closest thing to a MotoGP bike. A question that's not asked enough is "What would Biaggi have done on an 800?" because the RSV4 is nearly that and his wheels-in-line, super smooth style suits it perfectly. Not many in the world smoother than Max. Like Lorenzo in that way. And Checa, that one I find a bit harder to explain. But if it was a cake walk for the GP exiles, then Melandri should be dominating as he more than had the measure of both Biaggi and Checa since 2005, and between murder attempts from his M1, he shone pretty brightly in 2003 and 2004. Shinya didn't have a good time when he made the switch. Although you could chalk some of up that to injuries.

I don't think it's a case of easy competition, I think it's guys with loads of talent coming into the right rides at the right times of their lives. What I will say though, is I think the GP exiles will get more chances than those not. A team is going to stand by Checa if he encounters mediocre results whereas in the same situation, a rider from outside GP probably won't get that treatment. Maybe that's where their biggest advantage is, I don't know.

cliche guevara · Apr 18, 2011

don't get me wrong, i don't think its a cakewalk!

what i meant is i am afraid that lots of people will say that!i don't consider their age to be a handicap just yet , hence why i rate biaggi as still one of the best riders around in any series

2 wheeled panzer commander · Apr 18, 2011

cliché guevara said:
i'm not so sure whether biaggi acutally got him!

checa lifted his upper body very very early, it seemed to me like he was letting biaggi by intentionally and then passed him earlier than biaggi expected, shoved him wide,and used that advantage to stay clear off him in the last lap

it sure was a brilliant strategy if it really was as planned as it seemed to me!

don't get me wrong, i like checa, always have . but what will wins from biaggi and checa say about the level of riders in wsbk?

they maybe fully fit and as good as ever but to most followers it will appear like the old riders that couldnt do it in gp will do a cake walk to the title in wsbk.

and i like superbikes too much to accept those comments

I agree its worring that the likes of checa biaggi and now millandri are pretty much dominating wsb . it really restricts the pregression of your wsb riders hoping to move in to gp . and lets face it no one has set the world alight going from wsb too gp . if i were honda looking at rea i'd be thinking if he can't beat gp has beens hes got no chance against the upper tier gp riders lets look at the young gp 2 riders got the next crop of talent.

its a shame but its the way it looks at the mo

Marijke · Apr 18, 2011

cliché guevara said:
i'm not so sure whether biaggi acutally got him!

checa lifted his upper body very very early, it seemed to me like he was letting biaggi by intentionally and then passed him earlier than biaggi expected, shoved him wide,and used that advantage to stay clear off him in the last lap

like i said, you could hear checa miss-shifting his gear, I too thought he did it on purpose. dad said it was 'just' a mistake

Tom · Apr 18, 2011

povol said:
The Spies factor was obviously real, not only to the American fan. The kid came in and captured everyones imagination with what to me, was the most dominant season ever put together.Team errors and Fabrizio kept that season from becoming a laugher.

I agree that Spies injected a lot of excitement into world superbike because riders coming up through the superbike ranks to major success is relatively rare and was refreshing. But i totally disagree with the idea that he dominated, you cannot dominate from behind and you cannot dominate without consistency. No matter what the reasons were, the fact that the title battle went to the wire means that no one rider dominated. For me domination has to be relentless success in all circumstances, an ominous succession of results that leave the competion fairly hopeless. Haga lined up at the final round with a very reasonable chance of being champion, as far as i am concerned that fact alone negates any talk of domination.

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