Video of VR kicking rider in 125cc 1997

bh84 said:

Argentina happened because 1. MM hit Rossi and knocked him off line, so he had to get back over 2. MM didn't have the foresight to realize when VR changed body position his bike would move. You can't blame Rossi for the Argentina crash, that was all Marc.

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So Rossi changed lines at speed to keep a rider behind him and knocked a rider off so it must have been (your words) 'Dangerous and Irresponsible riding and the fact that DORNA let it slide is a joke'. Would you agree?



Now as for cutting across riders noses or changing lines at speed, what is one supposed to do when they overtake?


What of the awesomely executed block passes at PI where rider R cut the nose of rider M a number of times. No contact and great racing.


MM does not swerve at Sepang or anywhere, MM takes the track that he is allowed to take because the gap is there. He does NOT ride dangerously or irresponsibly with any of his overtakes (or Rossi in returning serve until the incident).


EDIT. When racing, changing lines and all manner of 'tactics' are considered acceptable provided that they do not endanger other rider/s and simply accelerating hard to take the line of other racers on corner exit has been around for all of the 37 or so years I have been watching.

I have no objection with racing up the inside of someone even with minor contact, the moves I saw as dangerous were those where MM came from outside of VR under braking and cut across the nose of his bike. Had any of those resulted in contact, it would have sent VR over the bars and MM likely would have high sided. In that situation VR has 2 options, brake and risk losing the front, or hope to whatever god he believes in that if he stays on it theres no contact.

This is a shot from my old coworker's race this year, a rider cut across his nose and they hit, John went over the bars and was landed on twice by his own bike, breaking his collarbone and tearing a ligament in his knee. It was a very similar move to what I described above. Thats why I have a problem with that type of pass, its much more dangerous than running a rider wide

bh84 said:

I have no objection with racing up the inside of someone even with minor contact, the moves I saw as dangerous were those where MM came from outside of VR under braking and cut across the nose of his bike. Had any of those resulted in contact, it would have sent VR over the bars and MM likely would have high sided. In that situation VR has 2 options, brake and risk losing the front, or hope to whatever god he believes in that if he stays on it theres no contact.

This is a shot from my old coworker's race this year, a rider cut across his nose and they hit, John went over the bars and was landed on twice by his own bike, breaking his collarbone and tearing a ligament in his knee. It was a very similar move to what I described above. Thats why I have a problem with that type of pass, its much more dangerous than running a rider wide

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This and nearly all your posts can be easily summarised as "it's different because it is Valentino".

Again, RD ruled on Sepang and said MM's passes were fine. Again, you can also argue about the incident being at a low speed and whether there was a deliberate kick but a move which takes a rider down on a live track is always dangerous, and by definition more dangerous than one which doesn't.

I watched the incident at the Argentina race, which I hadn't seen before because the race was on at 3 am Australian time. By the standards of evidence you guys and Rossi himself are applying to PI and Valencia, MM considering himself to have been knocked off the bike there is not completely outrageous. He at least kept his counsel and did not make unprovable accusations to the whole world in the press conference for the next race.

bh84 said:

I have no objection with racing up the inside of someone even with minor contact, the moves I saw as dangerous were those where MM came from outside of VR under braking and cut across the nose of his bike. Had any of those resulted in contact, it would have sent VR over the bars and MM likely would have high sided. In that situation VR has 2 options, brake and risk losing the front, or hope to whatever god he believes in that if he stays on it theres no contact.

This is a shot from my old coworker's race this year, a rider cut across his nose and they hit, John went over the bars and was landed on twice by his own bike, breaking his collarbone and tearing a ligament in his knee. It was a very similar move to what I described above. Thats why I have a problem with that type of pass, its much more dangerous than running a rider wide

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Yep, obviously the guy with yellow livery must be in the right.

Still no answer to my previous explanation. What's the problem? Too boring if you limit yourself to observable facts?

bh84 said:

I have no objection with racing up the inside of someone even with minor contact, the moves I saw as dangerous were those where MM came from outside of VR under braking and cut across the nose of his bike. Had any of those resulted in contact, it would have sent VR over the bars and MM likely would have high sided. In that situation VR has 2 options, brake and risk losing the front, or hope to whatever god he believes in that if he stays on it theres no contact.

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But you avoided the question ....... was VR to blame at Argentina as 'he changed lines across someone else's nose' and the end result was a rider down.

Additionally you avoided judgement on the block passes at PI, which for all intents are exactly the same thing. A rider (generally) will go up the inside, late brake but hard brake, stay upright and when they are 'fully in control' will then take the corner. The outcome is that they have placed their bike where another wants to be and in doing so have 'cut across anothers line', it is a brilliant tactic and was executed to perfection by Rossi at PI.

Both, in fact all are about taking another's line in order to upset their rhythym and are executed to perfection many times per race (ain fact VR and MM both did similar moves for the 7 laps at Sepang)

bh84 said:

This is a shot from my old coworker's race this year, a rider cut across his nose and they hit, John went over the bars and was landed on twice by his own bike, breaking his collarbone and tearing a ligament in his knee. It was a very similar move to what I described above. Thats why I have a problem with that type of pass, its much more dangerous than running a rider wide

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Your colleague is lucky, has happened many times where bikes land on riders (have seen, and worse - heard it a number of times) and many do not get off as lightly as your colleague (in the last few years in Australia I know of 3 deceased as a result of being hit by fallen bikes)

It is however a fact of racing, it is not a gentleman's sport at the top level, it is dog eat dog and no quarter given. It is top athletes, the very best with selfish mindsets and massive egos battling for supremacy, for the adoration of millions, for the dollars, for the trophies, for the world title, and often for pride. On the track, none of these riders are gentleman, they are basically pricks as that is what separates them from the very very good, off the track may be different but do not cross these guys on the track and get in their way of a win.

bh84 said:

So IMO with the way Marc was making passes within inches at high speeds, cutting across VR's front wheel at high speeds, running him out to the rumble strips etc.

If Vale's front wheel had touched MM's rear wheel when he cut across his nose just before Rossi got mad, The anti-Rossi people will say MM was in front, its his track, his line, but if thats true, then you have no right to complain about VR taking a wide line.

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bh84 said:

There is an unwritten but widely accepted rule in all racing, hold your line, you dont change lines just to keep someone behind you, its dangerous and irresponsible riding, Cutting across Rossi's nose multiple times was dirty and stupidly dangerous.

If you knew anything about MX, you'd know that most block passes dont involve contact, just one rider forcing the other to brake, which is what Vale was trying to do in a much less agressive manner. Marquez wasn't smart enough to realize he'd been outfoxed and his only option was to brake, thats why he went down.

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bh84 said:

Its one thing to "push" a rider wide, its quite another to cut across his nose under braking at high speed. I'm not talking about holding to the fastest line around the corner, I'm saying hold the line you're on AKA don't change lines right in front of someone.

Argentina happened because 1. MM hit Rossi and knocked him off line, so he had to get back over 2. MM didn't have the foresight to realize when VR changed body position his bike would move. You can't blame Rossi for the Argentina crash, that was all Marc.

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bh84 said:

I have no objection with racing up the inside of someone even with minor contact, the moves I saw as dangerous were those where MM came from outside of VR under braking and cut across the nose of his bike. Had any of those resulted in contact, it would have sent VR over the bars and MM likely would have high sided. In that situation VR has 2 options, brake and risk losing the front, or hope to whatever god he believes in that if he stays on it theres no contact.

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first as far as i remember (might be wrong) there was only one pass from marquez which he came from the outside and cut in front of rossi,

second lets not forget rossi had done those kinda move multiple times ( he did a similar move in austin this year too) in the past, dangerous, reckless,.. whatever you wanna call it, ok , true, but it is what it is,its RACING (as he calls it) and when emotion gets involved you tend to do that, you dont expect mercy during a fight, do you? of course the guy is gonna stick it in your face. the fact is rossi hates it when ppl pass him from the OUTSIDE, but that doesnt mean you have to pull a gun out in the middle of a fist fight, and look at the guy and say if you punch me again im gonna shoot you (of course marquez was kinda dumb to punch).

and about argentina, you seriously cant say it was all marquez, yeah it was stupid to stick that close but rossi had a good glance over his shoulder before changing direction, so he kinda didnt mind him being that close, cuz again he had the advantage and since he is in front if there is any contact RD cant do anything about it.

I don't have the video pass, but I watched PI, Argentina, Sepang and Valencia. Can't comment either way on Austin, lot of switchbacks in that course, not surprised there were passes made where Rossi came across the front, I don't condone passing like that, don't like it one bit, the difference to me is when the rest of the field does it, it's to pass another rider, when MM did it at Sepang, it was purely to mess with/slow down Rossi. Obviously racing has its risks, some maneuvers are riskier than others. But purposely pulling one of the riskiest moves possible with the worst consequences if it goes wrong simply to play mind games is wrong in my eyes.

Kind of like a couple years ago at so when Barcia threw a big whip in front of Roczen and hit his front wheel mid air while looking back at him, dangerous move, horrible consequences for both riders should it go wrong, and for no reason other than to get into KR's head, difference there was Barcia was just trying to beat Roczen. MM's move was pure bs and I can see why VR saw red in that situation.

michaelm said:

This and nearly all your posts can be easily summarised as "it's different because it is Valentino".

Again, RD ruled on Sepang and said MM's passes were fine. Again, you can also argue about the incident being at a low speed and whether there was a deliberate kick but a move which takes a rider down on a live track is always dangerous, and by definition more dangerous than one which doesn't.

I watched the incident at the Argentina race, which I hadn't seen before because the race was on at 3 am Australian time. By the standards of evidence you guys and Rossi himself are applying to PI and Valencia, MM considering himself to have been knocked off the bike there is not completely outrageous. He at least kept his counsel and did not make unprovable accusations to the whole world. in the press conference for the next race.

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It's no different because it's Vale, if he'd been screwing with MM on purpose and MM put him down I'd understand, I was a fan of both riders before this all happened. Loved Marquez's body out style and how exciting he was to watch, but yes I've been a 46 fan for a long time too.

I disagree with RD about MM's antics on the track, if you're racing someone for position, I'm good with anything that doesn't cause a crash, if you're just out there to ruin another riders day, that's where I have a problem with it

the problem is RD has to stand as a judge, and a judge cant rule on intent, he needs facts.

" if you're just out there to ruin another riders day," even if that is the case, that can not be proven.

ps, if i remember correctly RD only charged rossi 3 penalty point cuz they thought both riders were at fault.otherwise the penalty wouldve been more severe...

I

bh84 said:

It's no different because it's Vale, if he'd been screwing with MM on purpose and MM put him down I'd understand, I was a fan of both riders before this all happened. Loved Marquez's body out style and how exciting he was to watch, but yes I've been a 46 fan for a long time too.

I disagree with RD about MM's antics on the track, if you're racing someone for position, I'm good with anything that doesn't cause a crash, if you're just out there to ruin another riders day, that's where I have a problem with it

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I think MM showed poor judgement in racing VR at Argentina, he wasn't ever going to stay ahead of VR who had closed a lead of over 4 seconds, but that is what he does, and still what he may have been doing at Sepang since everything on which you base your position is supposition.

We have now had 100s of pages debating all this, but a rider is either racing legally for position or is not, and Valentino was racing equally vigorously as has been pointed out previously. Motives and the identities of the riders don't come into it (or what fans of a particular rider may want the race result to be) unless a cadre of mind readers can be found to be employed by race direction, which is where I am in disagreement with RD about Sepang, although I suspect they were looking for an excuse to penalise him less severely if I am to join you in indulging in speculation and supposition. As I have said previously, why on earth would RD be biased against Valentino, and where is the evidence they have ever been so?, cf the Assen 2015 race, where I agreed with their ruling btw.

Until one of these damn boppers can show me a time stamped conversation anywhere on the internet about how they thought MM was playing with Rossi to help Lorenzo before Rossi's outburst at Sepang, I'm going to assume them to be mindless sheep who got instructions on that Thursday to be outraged.

Pov, it's exactly what I asked in the thread: a case for Marquez. And not just of your regular spectator, but of journalists, experts, racers, and former racers, etc. I've rewatched, Phillip Island, Sepang, and Valencia with no audio (Nick Harris has become unbearable ). I'm no more or less convinced than i was then that Marquez was absolutely racing and nothing else. This whole suspicion has been 100% created out of Rossi's paranoia. This is the most astonishing case of poisoning a well I've ever seen in sport. A unique and dramatic effect of Rossi worship that is unseen in other sports. Suddenly everyone was sure they subsequently saw something suspicious post baseless accusations. It would be ok if it had been limited to your run of the mill cult bozo; however, when you got racers, current and former, journalists, experts, team principals buying it, then you know the sport is ....... Then for the organizers to blatantly favor Rossi, from the non DQ (honestly the non-black flag call and the whole executive role is in question, not just the superficial aspect of the sport, but its profound aspect ) to the insulation of placing a gag order on the entire paddock so to protect ONE person, insulating him from bearing account to the media. Something that now has been lost to never be revisited in a timely manner! Yes, think about it, now it will always be posed on Rossi's terms. Where at the press conference is when these hard questions should have been ask. Like i said, it was like the NFL cancelled Superbowl Media Day so as not to bother the QB of one team. I listen to Mike Webb and I see a politician of the lowest kind, to say the .... he uttered with a straight face is unbelievable. One thing is certain, apart from someone taking out a gun and firing a bullet at another rider, we shall, if this standard is used, NEVER see a black flag for reckless and deliberate reckless riding EVER AGAIN. There will never be a reckless RACING INCIDENT that will reach a higher point than kicking a rider causing a crash. Taking the rider wide to the edge of the track in an act outside of racing, then the perpetrator admitting it, at that point a DQ should have been issued. So I don't expect to ever see a black flag in GP. They should burn those flags or leave them at Dorna headquarters. They don't need to be packed. Save the storage space. I don't expect to ever see it again used.

Jumkie said:

. Taking the rider wide to the edge of the track in an act outside of racing, then the perpetrator admitting it, at that point a DQ should have been issued. So I don't expect to ever see a black flag in GP. They should burn those flags or leave them at Dorna headquarters. They don't need to be packed. Save the storage space. I don't expect to ever see it again used.

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They will still need those black flags in case someone runs 1 extra lap during a tire fiasco.You know, for those really really egregious infractions.