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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sarto @ Feb 6 2008, 03:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2034/224641...f2649f137_b.jpg
Pete and Sarto, thanks for bringing us this great article. I agree with allot of what the guy said.


Even though it was totally anti-Rossi
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(inside joke)
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 8 2008, 01:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>
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more on "confused sexuality" from the two guys who most want to be Uccio
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 8 2008, 03:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>
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more on "confused sexuality" from the two guys who most want to be Uccio
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Oh you really got us there Adriana, dunno how I'm gonna bounce back from that.....
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Pete
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Feb 10 2008, 01:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Oh you really got us there Adriana, dunno how I'm gonna bounce back from that.....
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Pete
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your king of the comebacks pete.

thats a great artical,and very interesting that there is a kit to reduce 2 stroke pollution by 80%. we will never see them back pete, not in our life time . it made me laugh when the early 990's came out. jezzeer on the slower poorer teams 500 was giving the 990 factory bikes a run for there money.
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Feb 11 2008, 12:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Oh you really got us there Adriana, dunno how I'm gonna bounce back from that.....
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Pete

I meant Rog. and Andrew you wally!!
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Feb 11 2008, 02:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>very interesting that there is a kit to reduce 2 stroke pollution by 80%.

80% Rog. ?? thats a beauty got any info./links on that? Does it just cut the power output by 80%?
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 10 2008, 04:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>80% Rog. ?? thats a beauty got any info./links on that? Does it just cut the power output by 80%?

iwas reading this when i saw your question so, here is a link...

http://www.envirofit.org/field_testing.html

i think the 80% that rog referred to was in the article....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>their envirofit kit reduces carbon monoxide and hydrocarbon emissions by more than 80%
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 10 2008, 04:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>80% Rog. ?? thats a beauty got any info./links on that? Does it just cut the power output by 80%?
well if you bothered to read the article you will see thats what i said..geez.
but since you asked, this is the link to the company that makes the direct injection system.
http://www.orbeng.com.au/orbital/directinj.../dioverview.htm
 
now back to the original article guys ..... who here believes 2 strokes can be made more Powerful and efficient ??? I think those links show it all .... also have a look at this simple one thats hows an unsolveable problem with high performance 2 strokes. ie. to get max power there has to be waste fuel ....:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viWhxvo6DLk


But I note that none of this stuff above has even gone anywhere near whats needed for an Expansion chambered engine ( ie. high performance ) so at best its for "plonker" engines
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Also it misinforms a lot about a well designed 2 stroke .... another sideline benefit that I think DI can never get is the warming of the charge whilst in the crank. Who here doesn't feel the difference between when your 2 stroke is cold and has reached a good temperature!!??

DI is just fuel inject only they can metre the amounts of fuel easier and more precisely ... unfortunatley this is all stuff for efficiency up to the point where scavenging gases start going out the exhaust. Sure you can fit DI to a motogp bike but the efficiency benefits are a dream.


And yes Rog I did read the articel .... that and I have read a "few" mote bits and pieces on two strokes over the years
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, ...... the difference between you and me is ..... when I read it .... I can understand it
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 11 2008, 01:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>now back to the original article guys ..... who here believes 2 strokes can be made more Powerful and efficient ??? I think those links show it all .... also have a look at this simple one thats hows an unsolveable problem with high performance 2 strokes. ie. to get max power there has to be waste fuel ....:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viWhxvo6DLk


But I note that none of this stuff above has even gone anywhere near whats needed for an Expansion chambered engine ( ie. high performance ) so at best its for "plonker" engines
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Also it misinforms a lot about a well designed 2 stroke .... another sideline benefit that I think DI can never get is the warming of the charge whilst in the crank. Who here doesn't feel the difference between when your 2 stroke is cold and has reached a good temperature!!??

DI is just fuel inject only they can metre the amounts of fuel easier and more precisely ... unfortunatley this is all stuff for efficiency up to the point where scavenging gases start going out the exhaust. Sure you can fit DI to a motogp bike but the efficiency benefits are a dream.


And yes Rog I did read the articel .... that and I have read a "few" mote bits and pieces on two strokes over the years
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, ...... the difference between you and me is ..... when I read it .... I can understand it
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.... you ,you prick !
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Feb 11 2008, 01:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>.... you ,you prick !

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ok here's a 2 stroke v's 4 stoke one for you then ... if you didn't like the factual one
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Jki4OQA5D4


and here a DI one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gO1h5yQUpQ


check how quick it runs out of gass compared to the 4 stroke!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FW2gM6wIVJw...feature=related

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sorry guys .... that article was a lot of "hoohickey and bunkum", engines have long been a passion of mine so I hate to see "myths" produced ....

2 strokes just don't have a place in a high performance but fuel efficient, and environmentally friendly, world.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 11 2008, 04:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>sorry guys .... that article was a lot of "hoohickey and bunkum", engines have long been a passion of mine so I hate to see "myths" produced ....

2 strokes just don't have a place in a high performance but fuel efficient, and environmentally friendly, world.
Admittedly, 2-stroke DI is currently only being used to full potential in marine environments at the moment, but it cannot be said yet that engineering development of this technology for high performance IS a dead end.

The mechanical efficiency of a two stroke is higher than a four stroke since there is no valve gear etc. If the engine is designed to run at a set speed and throttle setting it can be even better than the efficiency of a four stroke. This may be why they are used on outboards where revs and throttle are held constant for long periods of time. The other issues with outboards are weight, size and simplicity, areas where two strokes have a distinct advantage.

When comparing equal displacement engines, 4-strokes develop significantly less torque at the same RPM than 2-strokes due to 2-strokes having twice as many power strokes per revolution.

As far as emissions are concerned, 4-stroke models tend to have a slight advantage in the hydrocarbons (HC) category, while 2-stroke direct injection models tend to have the advantage in the carbon monoxide (CO) and nitrogen oxides (NOx) categories

Conventional two-strokes carry a fuel penalty because the exhaust port is partially uncovered by the piston as it moves up on its compression stroke. So some of the intake charge is pushed out the exhaust along with the remains of the previous cycle's burnt gases. Emissions take a hit for the same reason.

With DI, the exhaust port is completely covered by the piston before the fuel is squirted directly into the combustion chamber, so no fuel is wasted.

You stated in a previous post that DI in 2-strokes was not much different than what old hot bulb oil engines ran. Yes, both directly inject fuel into a combustion chamber, but it is only relatively recently that this has been done with gasoline engines. The hot bulb diesel used mechanical pump "solid" injection, whereas modern gas injection uses air assisted very high pressure injection with a stratified charge.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 11 2008, 01:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Also it misinforms a lot about a well designed 2 stroke .... another sideline benefit that I think DI can never get is the warming of the charge whilst in the crank. Who here doesn't feel the difference between when your 2 stroke is cold and has reached a good temperature!!??

how does a warm charge improve how an engine runs/performs? i was always under the impression that you want a cold intake charge?

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ Feb 11 2008, 09:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>how does a warm charge improve how an engine runs/performs? i was always under the impression that you want a cold intake charge?

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ah you are thinking turbochargers etc. ?? Maybe?

a cold charge does not ignite as easily .... mix that with some of the exhaust gases from the previous rev's combustion and it is not as easily ignited as a warmer charge. Heating fuel raises its Flash point, and vapourises the fuel better as well.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 11 2008, 10:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>ah you are thinking turbochargers etc. ?? Maybe?

a cold charge does not ignite as easily .... mix that with some of the exhaust gases from the previous rev's combustion and it is not as easily ignited as a warmer charge. Heating fuel raises its Flash point, and vapourises the fuel better as well.

any type of compressor like a turbo would cause the fuel to heat up due to the energy of it being compressed, that why we have such thing as inter coolers to cool it down. if the fuel was heated this could cause detonation due to the mixture igniting to early. if the mixture is cooled it will there for be denser (bit like you really) and there for more fuel would be pulled into the combustion chamber giving more power, this is ....... basics you learn in year 1.

and the exhaust gasses present are from the valve overlap in non compressed engines. its not there to heat the fuel you ...... overlap is used to help pull the fresh charge in plus there is a certain amount of unburned fuel present that can be used helping emitions ect. 2 strokes used to use what was known as a snurls loop to get a similar effect. the exhaust port and intake port are open at the same time. the escaping exhaust gas helps pull in the fresh charge but the snurls loop helped divert the fresh charge away from the exhaust port. this di does away with the need for this effect buy injecting the fuel directly. when i was studying performance engineering many years ago there was always a problem with injecting petrol at the pressures needed, so the motor industry was looking at the medical industry because they were using very high pressure pumps that could pump exact amounts for long periods of time i.e pace makers.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Feb 11 2008, 09:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>any type of compressor likle a turbo would cause the fuel to heat up due to the energy of it being compressed, that why we have such thing as inter coolers to cool it down. if the fuel was heated this could cause detonation due to the mixture igniting to early. if the mixture is cooled it will there for be denser (bit like you really) and there for more fuel would be pulled into the combustion chamber giving more power, this is ....... basics you learn in year 1.

again ....... weren't we talking about a two stroke crankcase here though?
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 11 2008, 11:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>again ....... weren't we talking about a two stroke crankcase here though?
and what difference does that make to the efficiency of fuel at different temperatures ?
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 11 2008, 12:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>again ....... weren't we talking about a two stroke crankcase here though?
mmmm. cherry picking again Barry....

If you keep this up we might start to think that you might not be as much of an engineer as you think you are...
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Feb 11 2008, 11:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>mmmm. cherry picking again Barry....

If you keep this up we might start to think that you might not be as much of an engineer as you think you are...
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been to google uni i suspect
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got a masters in arrogance
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Feb 11 2008, 10:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>and what difference does that make to the efficiency of fuel at different temperatures ?

Not sure what you mean here Rog. ??

we are not talking intercoolers here Rog. its a two stroke where the air/fuel is sucked into the crankcase, then compressed, then forced up through the transfer ports into the combustion chamber. So whether or not you cooled it on the way into the crank its going to be warm by the time its gets to the combustion chamber.

With DI the amount being metered in has to be so small none of this really matters ..... as again ..... because it injects such a small amount that it must be burned before the exhaust port opens ... ie. very tiny amounts ie. a low power engine. So its a crazy argument really ... irrespective of how the charge is put in there the millisecond unburned gases leave the exhaust port .... its wasting fuel .... and High performance 2 strokes do this a lot .... so much so an expansion chamber put on it increases performance to a great degree at the RPM of operation of that chamber.

To get a two stroke to be fuel efficient and non poluting and yet turn out the performance of say a current motogp bike maybe it would need to be a 1000cc anyway ..... then they would have to have a test to check emmisions each race so there would be this huge game playing with getting just the right amount of fuel injected to give the max. power before emmissions were exceeded. What a nightmare.

Again its all because of inefficency and pollution.

Just to give you an idea of the type if tune of engine we are talking here ..... I have a little Johnson Outboard here .... 9.9hp and its a little bigger than 250cc ...... dismal by motorcycle requirements hey!!?? and its pretty fuel efficient and not that bad for emmisions. They also do a 15hp ... the only difference is the jet and venturi in the carby ... but I don't think they push that capacity block much past that as the thing becomes inefficient ....

And those outboards don't even have a chamber to do the suck the burned gases and bat the unburned charge thing ....

So what use would there be in putting a denser charge in when by DI they are virtually trying to minimise the charge to the amount before it exceeds emissions??
 

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