The Smell Of Fear

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Apr 16 2009, 04:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>2009 - The GP09 is now developed around and according to Casey's needs. The 800cc Duc up to this season has PROVEN itself to be fast and competitive in the hand/feet/butt of ONLY ONE RIDER - Mr. Stoner.
I couldn't believe how stable Stoner's ducati seemed the other day. It seemed like a completely different bike - which I suppose it is. It just seems strange seeing Casey not have to wrestle it around the track. Personally I love watching him manhandling the bike, bending it to his will, as it were. Still, he put on a clinic of a different sort over the weekend. The next few races are really going to be interesting.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Apr 16 2009, 07:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Out of interest (from memory), when was the last time we had such an apparent disparity between results of one rider against others on the same machine?

I can think of MD on the screamer that nobody else seemed to be able to come to grips with on a consistent basis, but there would have to be other more recent efforts.

Gaz

The nearest i can think of is Rossi and the Yamaha in 04, which is similar as he was winning but less extreme, although you could question the equipment parity between Rossi and the other Yamaha riders. It remains a mystery how Stoner can outperform so many people by so much over 2 years, and we could be in for a 3rd.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 16 2009, 06:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The nearest i can think of is Rossi and the Yamaha in 04, which is similar as he was winning but less extreme, although you could question the equipment parity between Rossi and the other Yamaha riders. It remains a mystery how Stoner can outperform so many people by so much over 2 years, and we could be in for a 3rd.
Truer words...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (johnny @ Apr 14 2009, 02:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'> Wheres that fishing pic

Ok I'll bite . Sorry mate I did'nt read all your post it was too much like the dribble Tom, Rockcock, Gsfan, Barry and Pinky and a few others might spit out

I was'nt round here for the first race last season but I can only imagine how Casey's lover boys were running riot after Rossis dreadfull showing at the season opener with bs posts like yours.

Sure in the bit I read you made some good points and I actually agree that Casey is on for the win big time but to say that Rossis season is toast and its only just begun shows that you know nothing about racing
+1 what a load of casey fanboy bollox. ! race and the seasons over Its not as if rossi ever wins at Qatar.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Apr 16 2009, 07:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Wow... all this mental masturbation after one race. Careful or ya'll will blow your seasons worth of loads before Catalunya! Oh yeah, and some of the jiz may end up on your faces!!

Anyway for those with short memories... 2007 - Casey inherits a Loris developed Duc. 2008 - Still basically an evolved and improved Loris developed bike. 2009 - The GP09 is now developed around and according to Casey's needs. The 800cc Duc up to this season has PROVEN itself to be fast and competitive in the hand/feet/butt of ONLY ONE RIDER - Mr. Stoner. What the rest of this year will bring for Kallio/Hayden and the rest - who knows but right now what we have is man/machine married in racer's heaven - and it appears to be an exclusive relationship!!

Filippo Preziosi has recently declared to Italian TV that Stoner is exceptionally gifted as tester, even more than as a rider if possible... This was news even for me. But it figures as it explains a lot of things.

Capirossi may have been the main developer of Desmosedicis in the 990cc era. But he did not decide the move to 800cc and, in his own words, 'could never ride' the 800cc bike. Then came Stoner, who rode the bike and gave some indications that were defined by Ducati engineers as 'somewhat crazy'. But they nevertheless implemented them for him, just to give them a test, and they worked for Casey as we know.

From that moment on Ducati's development was driven by Casey Stoner. The bike worked better and better for him, leaving other Ducati riders unable to follow. Ducati is not a big factory, I doubt they can really develop the bike in more directions at the same time. Since Stoner was winning, they of course concentrated on him. The efforts made for the sake of Capirossi and then Melandri were half-hearted.

So Preziosi is in love with Stoner, who confirmed the validity of his technical philosophy on the track. Other riders will have to adapt themselves and either learn to ride a la Stoner, or give up.

That's the situation...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (johnny @ Apr 15 2009, 12:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Sorry mate I did'nt read all your post it was too much like the dribble Tom, Rockcock, Gsfan, Barry and Pinky and a few others might spit out

Well I'd just like to say thank you, and I hope I am able to live up to my esteemed declared colleagues.

Tom seems a clever young chap

Rock seems to be pretty down to earth and straight up.

GSfan ..... well he's all fact

and Pinky ..... well he doesn't mean well .... but he is entertaining

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Apr 16 2009, 10:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Filippo Preziosi has recently declared to Italian TV that Stoner is exceptionally gifted as tester, even more than as a rider if possible... This was news even for me. But it figures as it explains a lot of things.

Capirossi may have been the main developer of Desmosedicis in the 990cc era. But he did not decide the move to 800cc and, in his own words, 'could never ride' the 800cc bike. Then came Stoner, who rode the bike and gave some indications that were defined by Ducati engineers as 'somewhat crazy'. But they nevertheless implemented them for him, just to give them a test, and they worked for Casey as we know.

From that moment on Ducati's development was driven by Casey Stoner. The bike worked better and better for him, leaving other Ducati riders unable to follow. Ducati is not a big factory, I doubt they can really develop the bike in more directions at the same time. Since Stoner was winning, they of course concentrated on him. The efforts made for the sake of Capirossi and then Melandri were half-hearted.

So Preziosi is in love with Stoner, who confirmed the validity of his technical philosophy on the track. Other riders will have to adapt themselves and either learn to ride a la Stoner, or give up.

That's the situation...

That's a bit rough J4rn0
They built a different spec engine for Loris in 07 to try to help him out of his slump.
If Marco got a half hearted effort from the team it was because he was giving a half hearted performance in return. Ducati have also won 18 races in the 800cc era, so I would say Felippo is doing something right and any decisions made to develop in one path have been justified by results. They also won a constructors, teams & rider championship.
The fact that he and Ducati are being innovative with their CF frame & swingarm is a credit to them and they deserve praise for thinking outside the square. I think Ducati are very lucky to have Filippo Preziosi. Considering the resources of their Japanese counterparts they are kicking butt.

All the speculating on why Stoner kicked everybodies ... is fun and all, but the results mirrored the whole weekend from Friday thru Monday. When Stoner wanted to,he was 1/2 a second faster than anyone on the grid. This is his track,pure and simple.Im sure the track changed but it changed for everyone and if you look at the results and look at qualifying,there wasnt many movers except for when someone ran off the track.



April 11 (Reuters) - Qatar MotoGP qualifying result on
Saturday
1. Casey Stoner (Australia) Ducati 1 min 55.286 secs
2. Valentino Rossi (Italy) Yamaha 1:55.759
3. Jorge Lorenzo (Spain) Yamaha 1:55.783
4. Andrea Dovizioso (Italy) Honda 1:55.977
5. Loris Capirossi (Italy) Suzuki 1:56.149
6. Colin Edwards (U.S.) Yamaha 1:56.194
7. Randy de Puniet (France) Honda 1:56.358
8. Chris Vermeulen (Australia) Suzuki 1:56.493
9. Alex de Angelis (San Marino) Honda 1:56.790
10. Mika Kallio (Finland) Ducati 1:56.852


1. Casey Stoner (Ducati)
2. Valentino Rossi (Yamaha)
3. Jorge Lorenzo (Yamaha)
4. Colin Edwards (Yamaha)
5. Andrea Dovizioso (Honda)
6. Alex De Angelis (Honda)
7. Chris Vermeulen (Suzuki)
8. Mika Kallio (Ducati)
9. Toni Elias (Honda)
10. Randy De Puniet (Honda)

9 of the top 10 in qualifying finished in the top 10 and the one who didnt crashed. Racers are a funny breed.Its hard for them to say they got their ..... kicked so its the tires,its the track,its the bike blah blah.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 16 2009, 02:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well I'd just like to say thank you, and I hope I am able to live up to my esteemed declared colleagues.

Tom seems a clever young chap

Rock seems to be pretty down to earth and straight up.

GSfan ..... well he's all fact

and Pinky ..... well he doesn't mean well .... but he is entertaining




Oh don't worry Barry you go above and beyond the other guys when it comes to being a pathetic Stoner fanboy

Barry BTW your attempt at sarcasim only makes you seem more ........

I guess I'll have to look in another thread for a reply to this!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (johnny @ Apr 17 2009, 05:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Oh don't worry Barry you go above and beyond the other guys when it comes to being a pathetic Stoner fanboy


Thank you ..... that is the highest praise one could get .... given who it is coming from

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frizzle @ Apr 16 2009, 02:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>That's a bit rough J4rn0
They built a different spec engine for Loris in 07 to try to help him out of his slump.
If Marco got a half hearted effort from the team it was because he was giving a half hearted performance in return. Ducati have also won 18 races in the 800cc era, so I would say Felippo is doing something right and any decisions made to develop in one path have been justified by results. They also won a constructors, teams & rider championship.
The fact that he and Ducati are being innovative with their CF frame & swingarm is a credit to them and they deserve praise for thinking outside the square. I think Ducati are very lucky to have Filippo Preziosi. Considering the resources of their Japanese counterparts they are kicking butt.

No, I do not think I'm rough... I know and appreciate Ducati well enough. Half-hearted means their heart was and is with Stoner, and since they do not have capacity to sustain multiple development routes, they follow their heart first

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Apr 17 2009, 04:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>No, I do not think I'm rough... I know and appreciate Ducati well enough. Half-hearted means their heart was and is with Stoner, and since they do not have capacity to sustain multiple development routes, they follow their heart first


But (and correct away), if you are Ducati (or actually any factory) your aim is to design and develop a bike that is the fastest across the given circuit.

So, are you saying that Ducati have followed Stoner's needs as he is the quickest rider on the bike, but by doing that the bike has become an incredibly narrow focused machine that is possibly only rideable by a very few 'special' individual?

IMO, a factory will always develop based upon the feedback of the faster/quicker rider who will generally be the designated number 1. The bikes are then developed to that riders requirements and naturally therefore that rider tends to suit the bike and vice versa so they remain at or near the top of the riders.

But it is the team who needs to develop for an individual rider and thence make that bikework for their rider. Of course, if your team is that of teh #1 then any changes for setup are minor compared to a rider with different requireemnts.

Is that the gist of it?

If so, it is a perfectly natural and understandable evolution of a motorcycle. Yamaha are a good example where the bike started only really working for VR (admittedly a smaller performance gap) but now works for all based no doubt on VR and other riders adjusting, not (IMO) Yamaha adjusting to the other riders.

Irrespective, to me it is not a criticism of any factory nor rider, it is just a fact of the evolution process of motorcycles.






Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Apr 17 2009, 04:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But (and correct away), if you are Ducati (or actually any factory) your aim is to design and develop a bike that is the fastest across the given circuit.

So, are you saying that Ducati have followed Stoner's needs as he is the quickest rider on the bike, but by doing that the bike has become an incredibly narrow focused machine that is possibly only rideable by a very few 'special' individual?

IMO, a factory will always develop based upon the feedback of the faster/quicker rider who will generally be the designated number 1. The bikes are then developed to that riders requirements and naturally therefore that rider tends to suit the bike and vice versa so they remain at or near the top of the riders.

But it is the team who needs to develop for an individual rider and thence make that bikework for their rider. Of course, if your team is that of teh #1 then any changes for setup are minor compared to a rider with different requireemnts.

Is that the gist of it?

If so, it is a perfectly natural and understandable evolution of a motorcycle. Yamaha are a good example where the bike started only really working for VR (admittedly a smaller performance gap) but now works for all based no doubt on VR and other riders adjusting, not (IMO) Yamaha adjusting to the other riders.

Irrespective, to me it is not a criticism of any factory nor rider, it is just a fact of the evolution process of motorcycles.






Garry

If you really are a 'great' rider then you should be able to adapt to the bike somewhat. Take Melandri and Hayden for example.... both have been on Honda's before and guess what Casey was on one too. Casey was able to go fast on that LCR Honda then switch over to the Ducati without missing a beat. Granted Hayden's bike is not the satellite that Melandri and Stoner was on.... but that's beside the point. The point is great riders can find a way to adapt. There are racers who can only ride if the bike 'suits' their style....then there are those who are able to understand the bike's characteristics and make the most out of it as with Casey Stoner. In closing Melandri and Hayden are good riders.....not great.

Being "all fact" doesn't sound all that fun...just because I think Rossi has won enough and should move on I'm marked as a rogue! Rogue, ya that sounds better...oh and I don't PM anyone. I have gotten 2 very friendly PM's and responded in kind.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Apr 18 2009, 12:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But (and correct away), if you are Ducati (or actually any factory) your aim is to design and develop a bike that is the fastest across the given circuit.

So, are you saying that Ducati have followed Stoner's needs as he is the quickest rider on the bike, but by doing that the bike has become an incredibly narrow focused machine that is possibly only rideable by a very few 'special' individual?

IMO, a factory will always develop based upon the feedback of the faster/quicker rider who will generally be the designated number 1. The bikes are then developed to that riders requirements and naturally therefore that rider tends to suit the bike and vice versa so they remain at or near the top of the riders.

But it is the team who needs to develop for an individual rider and thence make that bikework for their rider. Of course, if your team is that of teh #1 then any changes for setup are minor compared to a rider with different requireemnts.

Is that the gist of it?

If so, it is a perfectly natural and understandable evolution of a motorcycle. Yamaha are a good example where the bike started only really working for VR (admittedly a smaller performance gap) but now works for all based no doubt on VR and other riders adjusting, not (IMO) Yamaha adjusting to the other riders.

Irrespective, to me it is not a criticism of any factory nor rider, it is just a fact of the evolution process of motorcycles.






Garry


The philosophy of Ducati (as formulated by their chief engineer Filippo Preziosi) is that they must do things differently from the Japanese. That is to say, if they had built a Japanese design (deltabox frame with a pneumatic valve V-4 engine in it) they'd never be able to develop that concept better than the Japanese giants.

So they have always intentionally looked for unblazed terrain while trying to be competitive, and that makes for a narrow path indeeed. Kind of extreme choices, that can pay in a narrower set of circumstances. They chose their desmo, they chose Bridgestones when they were not yet competitive, they chose to stress the engine as part of the frame, and they chose to solve the rideability of their monster through an intensive use of electronics rather than by 'softening' the design.

The brave Capirossi and Bayliss looked like the best choice to develop and tame the 'monster'. It was not going bad with them. Then when the 800cc days came, the choice at Ducati was to make their bike even more extreme--desmo in screaming configuration and more electronics to keep it under control. Stoner managed to ride that bike and (according to 2007 rumors from Ducat Corse) even to give some 'crazy' setup advice that made him faster.

So it is only natural that the development was then driven by Casey, who Preziosi say is an extraordinary tester. Ducati of course would like to have a bikes that also makes podiums and top-5, not only victories and bottom positions, but in the end they'll go with casey's indications because he wins, so the bike becomes more and more a 'Ducasey'...

What can they do....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SuperShinya56 @ Apr 18 2009, 01:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If you really are a 'great' rider then you should be able to adapt to the bike somewhat. Take Melandri and Hayden for example.... both have been on Honda's before and guess what Casey was on one too. Casey was able to go fast on that LCR Honda then switch over to the Ducati without missing a beat. Granted Hayden's bike is not the satellite that Melandri and Stoner was on.... but that's beside the point. The point is great riders can find a way to adapt. There are racers who can only ride if the bike 'suits' their style....then there are those who are able to understand the bike's characteristics and make the most out of it as with Casey Stoner. In closing Melandri and Hayden are good riders.....not great.

Well, to a certain degree I agree with you. Great riders are often able to adapt but you never know where they might fall short. There is no guartee that Rossi would be great on a Ducati and sending Casey back to Honda and michelins would more likely than not be a disaster. Non the less I consider both to be great riders but they all have their own limits.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Apr 18 2009, 11:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Posted his usual top drawer discussion points and answers

then asked

What can they do....

And that Jarn0 I suspect is the big million dollar plus question.

They have two real choices.

1. Continue down the path of development led by Stoner and risk alienating even more riders from the ability to ride the beast, yet probably continuing on the winning path.

2. Go down a development path that makest he bike more rideable, but with actual race results unknown.

IMO, choice 1 is the correct one as there will be riders who can ride the bike (as CS proves), they just need to find them (IMO - Kallio was impressive but time will tell, and Hayden still has time).

This game is about winning and I suspect that whilst ever Stoner wants to ride a Ducati, and whilst they want him there will be no great changes to the bikes design (what factory would?).




By the way, keep the posts coming as they are always interesting for this dumb duck.





Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Apr 18 2009, 10:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>configuration and more electronics to keep it under control. Stoner managed to ride that bike and (according to 2007 rumors from Ducat Corse) even to give some 'crazy' setup advice that made him faster.


repeat it enough times and i'm sure it will become true

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pinky @ Apr 19 2009, 01:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>repeat it enough times and i'm sure it will become true
Whilst it is true that your posts don't contain personal abuse, they are nearly always negative both about riders other than casey stoner and about anything said by other posters however erudite and even handed (as J4rn0s posts usually are). This may be wild speculation on my part, but perhaps this is why forum members get annoyed with you.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pinky @ Apr 19 2009, 01:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>repeat it enough times and i'm sure it will become true
Actually i think i remember reading something like that from the Valencia testing after the 2007 season.
In the race Stoner had gone quick but then in the test they changed the set up and he was much faster.I remember someone in his crew said that he used a wierd set up.crash.net?