The future of MotoGP

Mick D said:

Is F1 really comparable to any other race series? I'd say no. Merc has spent 1.2B+ over the last few years. There is zero equivalence, nor anything to learn there.

The USA is a unique market with their own, traditional, series and very limited interest in non-american sporting events (soccer, F1, MGP don't do as well in the USA for a reason).

I see very limited appeal for MGP as an "entertainment product" without prior interest.

I totally fail to understand your point that participants from a wide range of countries, speaking a wide range languages means that MGP is NOT an international sport, unless you are solely focused on MotoGP. In the lower classes, often watched as much, if not more than MotoGP itself by my SE Asian friends, they love hearing Thai, Bahasa Malay, and Bahasa Indo. The biggest future markets use small bikes, watch small bike racing and buy Repsol branded 150s. The sport is FAR from niche here.

Fight sport is an extremely poor comparison. You seem to fail to understand that fight sports DO have international, universal appeal, racing sports do not.

Dorna should most definitely not be trying to fund global feeder series. It would be impossible. And there is so much grass-roots racing of small cc bikes in developing countries it is totally unnecessary. What is required, as you mentioned, is a path to MGP for promising stars, Reza and Idemetsu have invested in this.

One thing always overlooked when judging the competitiveness of racers from where I'm from (equatorial region) is the geographic and cultural adjustments necessary along with the adjustments every non-equitorial rider must make when moving up classes. Subjective example: Wilairot was always slow after lunch in his first year in Europe - he was used to a traditional large lunch followed by rest in the heat of the afternoon. Taking riders from non-euro climates and geographies takes additional adjustments.

Currently I am preferring the on-track show of the S1GP championship to MGP. https://www.supermotos1gp.com/

Click to expand...

Formula 1 is the closest comparison that can be made in my opinion, and whilst historically F1 has not done well, that has definitely been changing over the last couple of years. A hit netflix show, an American team and as of this year three races in the US is showing there is interest, and more importantly investment. Not to mention the new owners, Liberty media are American and have completely revamped the promotional model of F1. The early signs are they are being quite successful in their efforts.

My point regarding languages is that Spanish and Italian being the main languages spoken by the majority of the talent shows not enough is being done to widen the sports appeal, although you do correctly mention that in some of the Eastern territories this doesn't seem to be much of a factor. Merely my observation is that a global sport would ideally feature a global cast of competitors, and currently MotoGP doesn't to the extent that it could. I'm not suggesting that I'm turned off by the fact there aren't more native English speakers, quite the opposite.

If combat sports have a wider global appeal but motorsports do not then why do you think that could be, after all motorcycles are ridden across the world? Genuinely curious here.

Also, if grass roots motorsport is so prevalent in the eastern markets, then obviously Dorna are doing something wrong, because the vast majority of talent that graduates it would seem are of Latin origin. In my mind part of the issue there could be a lack of interest from larger sponsors from that part of the world. Petronas gave it a good go, had immediate success then decided it wasn't money well spent. And yet they are/were bank rolling much of the Mercedes F1 budget, so perhaps they felt it wasn't a good investment from an exposure perspective.

My view is that the dearth of truly international talent making it through the feeder series to the top class is that big money sponsors just can't see an obvious return in sponsoring youth the way they do in F1 for example. Take Pastor Maldonado or Sergio Perez as obvious examples. They were funded all the way through the junior categories because their large national sponsors knew that if their drivers made it to the Premier class, they would get international exposure they otherwise would not. If Dorna were genuinely effective at growing the sports fan base and worldwide audience then maybe we would see more of the likes of Idemitsu and Petronas equivalents from different territories seeing value in investing in fostering talent.

ratdeal said:

My point regarding languages is that Spanish and Italian being the main languages spoken by the majority of the talent shows not enough is being done to widen the sports appeal, although you do correctly mention that in some of the Eastern territories this doesn't seem to be much of a factor. Merely my observation is that a global sport would ideally feature a global cast of competitors, and currently MotoGP doesn't to the extent that it could. I'm not suggesting that I'm turned off by the fact there aren't more native English speakers, quite the opposite.

Click to expand...

I think the fact that most of the feeder series and teams are based in Spain is a huge factor. Look at the CEV series in Spain. Everyone from around the world enters if because that's where the talent spotters like Puig are. Stoner would unlikely have reached MotoGP had he not raced in the CEV series and been picked up by Puig.

People just don't look outside of Spain and Italy these days and I agree that needs to change for a series to gain worldwide appeal but it's a habit that is hard to change and would take time.

Even with all the renewed investment and ownership and presence in America F1 has now. They still don't have any successful American drivers either on the grid or good potential candidates (Colton Herta & Pato O Ward are being hailed as the next big thing but as much as I enjoy indycar, Michael Andretti and Alex Zanardi were huge flops in F1 compared to how dominant they were in CART)

Mick D said:

I totally fail to understand your point that participants from a wide range of countries, speaking a wide range languages means that MGP is NOT an international sport, unless you are solely focused on MotoGP.

Click to expand...

If I played devil's advocate, I'd point out that native English (North America), Hindi, and Cantonese/Mandarin speakers are not well represented in MotoGP or F1. These sports are missing participants and robust fanbases in 2/2 of the world's largest economies, and 3/3 of the world's most populous countries. For all intents and purposes, FIA and FIM sanctioned competition is tethered to one economic zone, Europe.

The only real claim they have to internationalism, in the pure sense, is that the FIA and FIM control the world's manufacturers. This allows them to ban other series, even those not affiliated with either organization, from running championships that race in more than 3 countries. NASCAR, for instance, can't run a global series because the manufacturers would fall afoul of the FIA. Even if the manufacturers were independent, the world's circuits would be afraid of losing FIA/FIM sanctioning.

The European interpretation of international is somewhat constrictive and authoritarian. It's not a big deal. The World Series of Baseball involves teams from two countries, and players from a dozen maybe. Not really the world, but people know that. I think more people could contemplate the "internationalism" of FIA and FIM sanctioned series.

Gp racing is expensive and depends on sponsorship/revenue. Moving it behind pay walls and making it more niche surely....ah what the ...., dorna are a bunch of ........ that dont plan long term.
Go to a bikers meet/track and count how many people below 40 there are. ...., I look like Patrick Furstenhoff with my boring f800 next to these gs1200 cialis dependent bald weirdos.
Promote the sport to younger audiences. Most folk would prefer moto over f1.
also : colton is the man. or at least my man. And .... Mercedes. HRC³.



Gentlemen, in light of the humiliating recent situation here on powerslide, I am honored and grateful to be joined by men.
Please continue

Problems with MotoGP:
1. Racing is not translating to bike sales
2. Sponsorship branding is not translating to sales
3. Their media model is 20 years old, and they have not figured out how to bring new fans through social media.

How can they fix it:
1. They need to examine who their customer (fan) is.
2. They need to define the customer that they are trying to attract.
3. Build a model that fits their customer

Bern1 said:

You would think that Suzuki pulling out would be a huge wakeup call?

I think the top head needs to roll. That guy is living in the past. Since he might not fire himself he needs to abdicate in favor of?

Click to expand...

Ezpeleta has his faults, but imo he's not the problem. He's also not the solution, but he's not the guy living 25 years in the past.

The ancient business model is using factory race teams to loot shareholder earnings. It doesn't work that way anymore, not even in the automotive industry, where the manufacturers practically have a captive customer base. Motorsport is self-funding or it's dropped. F1 is the notable exception, but the manufacturers often push to reduce the net cost of F1.

Suzuki's withdrawal should be a wake up call, but the MSMA must have slept in. The MSMA are looting retained earnings, and leaving IOU's for the shareholders. Eventually the shareholders at all companies will notice. Even if MotoGP doubles revenue next year, the MSMA would still be asking the shareholders for money.

I don't know what the future holds, but I know that MotoGP pays out enough money to IRTA and the MSMA to basically operate WSBK without shareholder money. That's it. Funding the manufacturers at $50M each for the current GP formula is a pipe dream.

The dominoes are starting to tumble. If they don't make changes, the international series will end up like AMA. The MSMA is racing to the bottom.

Bern1 said:

You would think that Suzuki pulling out would be a huge wakeup call?

I think the top head needs to roll. That guy is living in the past. Since he might not fire himself he needs to abdicate in favor of?

Click to expand...

I think all the teams have a jumping off point in mind, hopefully they can figure out a solution to keep the series viable. but they are going to have to make their product more available in order to do so.

Hollywood said:

I think all the teams have a jumping off point in mind, hopefully they can figure out a solution to keep the series viable. but they are going to have to make their product more available in order to do so.

Click to expand...

You mean like 20M subscribers at $10 each? Then give away the TV for free and run commercials plugging subscriptions?

A main sponsor apparently doesn't amount to much to the total budget according to Sanchez, 10% give or take. Would that have been enough for Suzuki to stay.

https://www.automoto-gp.com/les-pilotes-du-motogp-preoccupes-par-la-finlande-les-contrats-la-paie/

Bern1 said:

Give away the TV for free and run motorcycle ads for the companies racing and their sponsors.

Click to expand...

Not out of the question, although that is how the old AMA worked, albeit with different monetary flows. The American divisions of the Japanese companies were buying most of the ad space to get live TV coverage and then funding the action on track, too. Dorna would be giving the MSMA commercials in lieu of revenue sharing.

Like MotoGP, AMA Superbike was crazy expensive as the manufacturers funded such frivolities as two Superbike classes, one at 1000cc and one at 600cc. I see parallels to MotoGP manufacturers wasting money on active suspension and aerodynamic downforce.

The idea of subscriber based revenues is definitely appealing, but the web service fees would probably consume a lot of it. I can’t imagine 20-30m people streaming on the MotoGP website. That’s like Amazon prime levels of traffic.

Maybe someone will figure it out someday.

In developing countries NO ONE is paying subscription fees, torrents and free live streams are abundant. Peg the cost of subscription to developing world economics. Euro/NA viewers will get a bargain and you could increase subscriptions 10-fold. It MAY lower revenue slightly atm, but would reap copious rewards in future viewership.

This has been a great topic to read. I'll just throw a couple of my thoughts out there based on reading all of this.

The engine formula needs to change in GP in my opinion. If the series is being promoted as a "prototype" series, then you need to let the manufacturers pursue whatever engine design they'd like if they so desire. Or perhaps cut displacement to 750cc's or less if you are trying to tie this all into road going motorcycles. Winglets and shapeshifters all need to be banned ASAP because it is making the racing worse.

I think MotoGP can flourish for a long time if they get the next formula right. But the next formula needs to come in the next 3-5 years. A decade is long enough for the current formula. It's grown stale and it's showing on the track.

I've always said just look at F1 and see what they do wrong as a lesson to not go down certain paths whether it's the commercial side of things or the race side of things. Dorna may not be the right entity to be holding to the commercial rights any longer. If someone bought them out, it might be of benefit to the sport, and it might not be depending on who gets involved. I do think Carmelo needs to go as I feel he's a hindrance to the series at this point much the way Bernie was in the final years of running F1.

what is it $40/month now for the subscription? how do they expect to attract new customers at that price point? I sell a lot of bikes to people right now because they want to save money on gas on their commute, those people are not likely to drop $40 on a subscription.

Hollywood said:

what is it $40/month now for the subscription? how do they expect to attract new customers at that price point? I sell a lot of bikes to people right now because they want to save money on gas on their commute, those people are not likely to drop $40 on a subscription.

Click to expand...

I take your point. But the folks buying commuter bikes are not buying S1000Rs or Gixers liter bikes or am I wrong?

JPSLotus said:

This has been a great topic to read. I'll just throw a couple of my thoughts out there based on reading all of this.

The engine formula needs to change in GP in my opinion. If the series is being promoted as a "prototype" series, then you need to let the manufacturers pursue whatever engine design they'd like if they so desire. Or perhaps cut displacement to 750cc's or less if you are trying to tie this all into road going motorcycles. Winglets and shapeshifters all need to be banned ASAP because it is making the racing worse.

I think MotoGP can flourish for a long time if they get the next formula right. But the next formula needs to come in the next 3-5 years. A decade is long enough for the current formula. It's grown stale and it's showing on the track.

I've always said just look at F1 and see what they do wrong as a lesson to not go down certain paths whether it's the commercial side of things or the race side of things. Dorna may not be the right entity to be holding to the commercial rights any longer. If someone bought them out, it might be of benefit to the sport, and it might not be depending on who gets involved. I do think Carmelo needs to go as I feel he's a hindrance to the series at this point much the way Bernie was in the final years of running F1.

Click to expand...

Yeah, when I think of grand prix bikes, they are power dense, lightweight, and maneuverable. The manufacturers rapid prototype parts to keep the riders happy. The sport is rider-centric.

During the GFC when Dorna pitched the new 1000cc formula, the notion of a guy wrestling a 250hp machine was appealing. Unfortunately, the idea never really materialized. The MSMA sorted out the electronics quickly, and they decided to deal with the excess torque by fixing wings and ride height devices. Everything got homologated and spec'ed.

Smaller engines would be okay by me, but the 800s were not popular. The fuel regs were the issue, but I fear the fans will revolt again. Furthermore, the rules would need to be backward compatible, to keep costs down. Fuel flow limitation is the only way to make everything backward compatible. Not sure if they have the technical sophistication to make it happen. If the GPC make a hard capacity change, the electronics will need drastic simplification to keep costs down.

In the end, I think Superbike will be getting the overhaul. The 1000s are outrunning circuits. WSBK can't even race at Monza anymore, and the national series are having issues with safety. If the WSBK formula changes, maybe that gives MotoGP a direct sales link to 1000cc? World Supersport Evo would basically have the wick turned up to look like old 750cc competition maybe?

Dunno. The future is unclear, but it's quite a predicament

Keshav said:

I take your point. But the folks buying commuter bikes are not buying S1000Rs or Gixers liter bikes or am I wrong?

Click to expand...

you would be surprised what people commute on, especially in texas where everyone has a 50 mile commute to work. right now there are two types of buyers for sport bikes, either they want to buy the newest fastest bike or they are looking the cheapest bike (and 98% dont care about motogp). When I have customers that do bring up motogp, they are usually motocross people.

mylexicon said:

Yeah, when I think of grand prix bikes, they are power dense, lightweight, and maneuverable. The manufacturers rapid prototype parts to keep the riders happy. The sport is rider-centric.

During the GFC when Dorna pitched the new 1000cc formula, the notion of a guy wrestling a 250hp machine was appealing. Unfortunately, the idea never really materialized. The MSMA sorted out the electronics quickly, and they decided to deal with the excess torque by fixing wings and ride height devices. Everything got homologated and spec'ed.

Smaller engines would be okay by me, but the 800s were not popular. The fuel regs were the issue, but I fear the fans will revolt again. Furthermore, the rules would need to be backward compatible, to keep costs down. Fuel flow limitation is the only way to make everything backward compatible. Not sure if they have the technical sophistication to make it happen. If the GPC make a hard capacity change, the electronics will need drastic simplification to keep costs down.

In the end, I think Superbike will be getting the overhaul. The 1000s are outrunning circuits. WSBK can't even race at Monza anymore, and the national series are having issues with safety. If the WSBK formula changes, maybe that gives MotoGP a direct sales link to 1000cc? World Supersport Evo would basically have the wick turned up to look like old 750cc competition maybe?

Dunno. The future is unclear, but it's quite a predicament

Click to expand...

F1 limits the fuel flow rate which is what Ferrari got in hot water over a couple of years back. They figured out a way to circumvent the fuel flow meter and were gaining more power than should have been possible. It's definitely something that could be done in GP if the need arose such as with a smaller engine formula. Though Stoner said some years ago he thought they should switch to 750cc two-strokes. I have to admit that was a rather interesting idea from him. I'd love to see what the manufacturers could do with a modern 2-stroke engine.

Changing the WSBK formula would be interesting to see what they would come up with. Definitely agree with the 1000's being too much bike for some circuits. Cutting the displacement in that series and leaving GP at 1000cc's isn't a bad way to go. Of course I don't know how much it would do for sales since as mentioned, the sport bike market isn't exactly thriving these days.