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Suzuki is pulling out. They apparently haven’t had a sponsor for a while. Yamaha went a spell without a major sponsor a few years ago. Aleix is having a hard time getting signed, Aprilia is going to have to spend more money to keep racing. Honda doesn’t seem to care that their bike is unrideable. Is their bike division being told to start counting beans? Sport bike sales trending which way? Young people don’t seem to care for bikes or cars, they care more about their phones and social media accounts?

True/false, in between? Is EV the future and ICE’s days are limited? Are we all going to be driven around by our cars instead of driving them? Maybe you’ll have to pay a surcharge for insurance if you insist on driving the vehicle yourself?

It all makes me wonder which way things are going. The future is looking uncertain. What do you all think?
 
It does seem to be struggling a bit.
Ducati however don't seem at all concerned about spending big $$

Have a dorna video pass now that good ol Rupert Murdoch has taken away the free telecast in Australia.
Watched my first MotoE race today. Short but not bad at all. It was on from the flag drop and hard charging right until the end.
I didn't expect too much but I was pleasantly surprised. [emoji41]
 
Suzuki’s withdrawal has certainly made me question the stability of MotoGP and motorcycle racing in general. I don’t consider KTM and Aprilia to be reliable participants. Plus, KTM and Red Bull is a marriage of national pride, but given KTMs form, I wonder how long Red Bull will be satisfied with backmarking. Aprilia have no title sponsor. For all intents and purposes, MotoGP is down to 3 steady manufacturers, two of whom are struggling to make a competitive bike.

It’s easy to overreact when times are bad, but part of the reason I started following GP closely again last year is because contracts were up with the MSMA. I was stunned when they agreed to continue the 1000cc 81mm formula because, despite aggressive cost-cutting, MotoGP is not close to sustaining itself. The TV revenues are maybe half of the cost. This is not the time to be leaning on manufacturer charity for ICE based motorsport or motorsport in general.

I’m starting to believe the only way forward is a merger. Sucks to think about, but TV money is basically capable of sustaining World Superbike. Four-stroke prototypes are apparently too costly. Dorna needed to slash costs again, but they didn’t do it because everything was “stable”.

The writing is on the wall. Not sure if someone will find a way to ignore it for another decade. The motorcycle industry cannot support two premier series.
 
Alot of good points made here by everyone...I don't think it's an overreaction to say it kind of feels like the beginning of the end. Not saying within the next few years but certainly within the next ten or so. Some kind of big shift will come I think.
Hard to see it being for the better, but you never know.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk
 
The problem with MotoGP is its too far removed from general road racing. Some countries like Spain have local series that feed in to GP but most like the UK and USA dont have a feeder series. I think Dixons and a Reddings experience shows that British super bikes lead to World superbikes where the UK is very strong. GP is heading the same way as F1 and its becoming irrelevant to most.
I will be cancelling my BT sub now as we (the UK) no longer have a competitive entry in and of the GP classes especially as BT are now cancelling Eurosport so we cant watch World super bikes either. on the same package.
 
It does seem to be struggling a bit.
Ducati however don't seem at all concerned about spending big $$

Have a dorna video pass now that good ol Rupert Murdoch has taken away the free telecast in Australia.
Watched my first MotoE race today. Short but not bad at all. It was on from the flag drop and hard charging right until the end.
I didn't expect too much but I was pleasantly surprised. [emoji41]

Ducati is the lone bright spot. Their sales and profitability are strong, but their success actually causes complications. One of the arguments against production based racing is that it rewards premium brands because they can sell more sophisticated products. Raising brand profile is expensive yeoman’s work, and many companies are not equipped to compete in this capacity.

Ducati raking in mega-bucks from their GP-esque street bikes actually puts WSBK in a predicament. The good news is that Yamaha and Kawasaki are competitive without too much regulatory charity. Maybe BMW will finally join the party.
 
It does seem to be struggling a bit.
Ducati however don't seem at all concerned about spending big $$

Ducati sells really expensive motorcycles to people with money. It’s the sport bike equivalent of Harley with cruisers. So it makes sense that they are willing to spend money on racing. They want to become the two wheeled Ferrari. Maybe they already are.
 
Not saying within the next few years but certainly within the next ten or so. Some kind of big shift will come I think.
Hard to see it being for the better, but you never know.

If a big shift happens, Dorna have given us a prelude with the CRT rules. The claiming rules would be dropped, but the general concept would remain the same. Start with an FIM homologated superbike and make robust modifications. The FIM will use a few performance regulations (rev limits and bore limits maybe) to keep the bike performance and cost under control.

To implement this change with reduced fan backlash, the satellite bike program would basically be eliminated. The independent teams would switch to the new CRT formula, while the manufacturers race for a few years with full prototypes before declaring that the original MotoGP concept is outdated, and we need to move forward, blah blah blah. The factories would then bolt superbike engines into a MotoGP glider, and that's it.

Unsure if this would work or even be cheaper. I'm sure Dorna would simply prefer for MotoGP to become world superbike, but the manufacturers will probably never allow BoP in the premier class. The future is unclear to say the least. Not sure how motorcycle racing can get back on stable ground.
 
Ducati sells really expensive motorcycles to people with money. It’s the sport bike equivalent of Harley with cruisers. So it makes sense that they are willing to spend money on racing. They want to become the two wheeled Ferrari. Maybe they already are.
Not a bad analogy with Ferrari.

They operate in the same market still though.

I know nothing about business but I don't see how it makes economic sense for them to spend so much, yet for other manufacturers it doesn't apparently.
Sell less bikes more expensively.
Does that cover it? [emoji2369]
 
I don’t really know myself. Others here such as Hollywood are in the business and probably have insight.
I will admit I was flirting with buying one of those “special” editions Ducati were flogging at the end of the 90’s. I can’t even remember which one caught my fancy then. The Hailwood?

The economics of a Ferrari or Ducati are beyond my sphere of knowledge. When I looked at Ferraris or MV Augustas in the 70’s I couldn’t figure it out either. Some things never change.

The time and effort required to design a cool and complicated V12 or a desmo valve multi cylinder motorcycle engine are surely substantial, requiring substantial purchase prices.

With Ducatis even in the 90’s it tweaked me that the clutches made so much noise and the valve adjustments seemed overly complicated.

I’ll stick with my 750cc /5 BMW pushrod valve adjustments, I can do it in my sleep almost.
And it has good low end torque. I’ve had this motorcycle longer than any other.
 
Regarding the state of the sport generally, I think it's time for Dorna to sell up or bring in a more commercial partner. Their European focus is ultimately harming the growth of the sport. I think the Amazon series debacle raises a few points. The series was only shown in a few select territories, and the state of the CC and audio shows they really weren't all that focused on creating a product with a wider mainstream appeal. In addition the fact that the protagonists mainly speak their mother tongues is indicative of the underlying problem. Dorna isn't interested in developing the sport on a global level.

Looking at the state of declining motorcycle sales, I think with the exception of Ducati who have a niche sewn up, the manufacturers clearly have a branding and PR problem. Sports machinery is seen as a deeply niche class of product with little to no wider market appeal. Whilst this may continue to be the case, the lack of investment in newer non ICE based technologies is a massive over sight. Motorcycles just aren't seen as a desirable or viable alternative to the usual modes of transport. Regulations are continuing to legislate ICE vehicles out of existence and whilst the auto industry is making strides to keep up from a product and infrastructure stand point, none of the major bike manufacturers seem all that interested. Suzuki leaving Motogp to focus on 4 wheeled EVs is in my mind a ridiculous proposition. Surely their R&D budget would be better spent developing miniaturised 2 wheel EV powerplants that could then be scaled up and transplanted into their 4 wheeled counterparts. This would also allow them to corner the OEM powerplant market for smaller sized machines which are currently being woefully underdeveloped whilst the Musk's of this world focus on larger vehicles and the mid to high end segment. Suzuki could then supply these powerplants to a variety of other manufacturers who simply don't have the resources to fund their own development. All of a sudden Motogp is looking like a cheap marketing exercise for their technologies as they seek to expand their operation outside of the failing 2 and 4 wheeled businesses they current run.
 
Not a bad analogy with Ferrari.

They operate in the same market still though.

I know nothing about business but I don't see how it makes economic sense for them to spend so much, yet for other manufacturers it doesn't apparently.
Sell less bikes more expensively.
Does that cover it? [emoji2369]

Without the consumer perception of performance and desirability their business model fails. I wouldn't be surprised if they were somewhat like ferrari, who essentially sell t shirts and key chains, plus the odd road car. Without the credibility that racing provides ducati and ferrari would essentially be stuck without an audience for their crap merch and over priced machines.

The whole business model relies upon the racing side of things to shore up support for the brand. Its telling that ferrari who constantly threaten to leave F1 never do (because they essentially cannot) and Ducati moved a large chunk of budget from SBK to MotoGP in 2004 as soon as it looked like that was a more popular platform for marketing to their audience.
 
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Looking at the state of declining motorcycle sales, I think with the exception of Ducati who have a niche sewn up, the manufacturers clearly have a branding and PR problem. Sports machinery is seen as a deeply niche class of product with little to no wider market appeal. Whilst this may continue to be the case, the lack of investment in newer non ICE based technologies is a massive over sight. Motorcycles just aren't seen as a desirable or viable alternative to the usual modes of transport. Regulations are continuing to legislate ICE vehicles out of existence and whilst the auto industry is making strides to keep up from a product and infrastructure stand point, none of the major bike manufacturers seem all that interested. Suzuki leaving Motogp to focus on 4 wheeled EVs is in my mind a ridiculous proposition. Surely their R&D budget would be better spent developing miniaturised 2 wheel EV powerplants that could then be scaled up and transplanted into their 4 wheeled counterparts. This would also allow them to corner the OEM powerplant market for smaller sized machines which are currently being woefully underdeveloped whilst the Musk's of this world focus on larger vehicles and the mid to high end segment. Suzuki could then supply these powerplants to a variety of other manufacturers who simply don't have the resources to fund their own development. All of a sudden Motogp is looking like a cheap marketing exercise for their technologies as they seek to expand their operation outside of the failing 2 and 4 wheeled businesses they current run.

The thing is, two wheeled transportation is massively popular in some parts of the world and is seen as a viable alternative to automobiles. Indeed, in some places it’s the only transportation. Some people can’t afford automobiles or the roads don’t exist.

So as mentioned, a global way to promote racing would indeed shore up sales. Promoting EV on two wheels would also. E racing is a good step.

Dorna does a crappy job all way round. Just look at the figurehead. The boss is an old corrupt doddering man stuck in the ways of old Spain. They need a modern direction.

To be clear I am not crazy about EV on a personal level. But it looks inevitable for transportation.

Manufacturers would be smart to develop small and inexpensive EV machines for transportation. It’s this kind of thinking that put Honda on the map initially.

They can still race, it will provide the glamour.

Most people that wear Nikes don’t wear them on the basketball court or participate in track and field.
 
I don’t really know myself. Others here such as Hollywood are in the business and probably have insight.
I will admit I was flirting with buying one of those “special” editions Ducati were flogging at the end of the 90’s. I can’t even remember which one caught my fancy then. The Hailwood?

The economics of a Ferrari or Ducati are beyond my sphere of knowledge. When I looked at Ferraris or MV Augustas in the 70’s I couldn’t figure it out either. Some things never change.

The time and effort required to design a cool and complicated V12 or a desmo valve multi cylinder motorcycle engine are surely substantial, requiring substantial purchase prices.

With Ducatis even in the 90’s it tweaked me that the clutches made so much noise and the valve adjustments seemed overly complicated.

I’ll stick with my 750cc /5 BMW pushrod valve adjustments, I can do it in my sleep almost.
And it has good low end torque. I’ve had this motorcycle longer than any other.

Like many, I’ve gone through a lot of different bikes over the years. For a 2nd (non-superbike) I got my F800R so I could have something comfortable to take on long rides with the wife. Great bike except they cheaped-out on the front suspension to make it more economical. But after I replaced the fork springs and installed cartridge emulators it handles better than any full-on sport bike I’ve owned. I bought an XSR900 (great engine and frame with really harsh suspension) a few months ago and am in the process of replacing all the suspension parts at a cost of $2,500.00 - with a goal of making it handle as well as the BMW. LOL!
 
The thing is, two wheeled transportation is massively popular in some parts of the world and is seen as a viable alternative to automobiles. Indeed, in some places it’s the only transportation. Some people can’t afford automobiles or the roads don’t exist.

So as mentioned, a global way to promote racing would indeed shore up sales. Promoting EV on two wheels would also. E racing is a good step.

Dorna does a crappy job all way round. Just look at the figurehead. The boss is an old corrupt doddering man stuck in the ways of old Spain. They need a modern direction.

To be clear I am not crazy about EV on a personal level. But it looks inevitable for transportation.

Manufacturers would be smart to develop small and inexpensive EV machines for transportation. It’s this kind of thinking that put Honda on the map initially.

They can still race, it will provide the glamour.

Most people that wear Nikes don’t wear them on the basketball court or participate in track and field.

The problem with EV bikes for say 3rd World countries is infrastructure. I lived in India for 10 years and the popularity of super cheap 125cc Honda Hero’s and the like grew exponentially, it seemed on a daily basis. Cheap to buy. Cheap to repair and operate. I’ve traveled extensively in Malaysia, Thailand, Cambodia and Vietnam and it’s the same there. I went back to Lahore 7 years ago after a five year absence and was shocked at how bad the pollution had become. I was told by a friend there: Look around, do you see anyone on a bicycle? Nope. The Japanese have made financing so easy even for the poorest people that nobody will be seen dead on a bicycle. Trying to change such a giant market of people who are historically resistant to change - will be a Herculean task.
 
Regulations are continuing to legislate ICE vehicles out of existence and whilst the auto industry is making strides to keep up from a product and infrastructure stand point, none of the major bike manufacturers seem all that interested.

The motorcycle manufacturers don't have the money to reinvent their industry, particularly since the existing technology is not energy dense enough for motorcycle application. That will change eventually, but each segment will have unique challenges, and consumers may not be interested in electric machines. Hybrids could be too expensive.

In general, the supersport industry is in contraction. Some brands have insulated themselves by selling exotica to wealthy buyers, but that business model can only support a couple of players. If the end goal is to preserve a robust supersport marketplace, racing will need to generate revenue for the manufacturers.

To that end, Dorna and the FIM have done a good job with WSBK. Homologation specials have returned, and BoP means your bike will be relatively competitive with a decent rider and easy to use electronics. They just need to get selling in CEV, CIV, IDM, BSB, ASBK, MotoAmerica, MFJ, etc.

The tragedy is that the cash-burning behemoth known as grand prix racing (MotoGP class specifically) is sucking the oxygen out of the room. Something's gotta give.
 
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Regarding the state of the sport generally, I think it's time for Dorna to sell up or bring in a more commercial partner. Their European focus is ultimately harming the growth of the sport. I think the Amazon series debacle raises a few points. The series was only shown in a few select territories, and the state of the CC and audio shows they really weren't all that focused on creating a product with a wider mainstream appeal. In addition the fact that the protagonists mainly speak their mother tongues is indicative of the underlying problem. Dorna isn't interested in developing the sport on a global level.
I'm struggling to imagine a more commercial business plan for Dorna/MGP... and how being more commercial improves the product or increases the core audience. The thing about ALL forms of racing is it does not have universal appeal, it is not a product like Coke, you need to have a certain affinity for the machines and the endeavour, the audience is limited by definition.

Re Eurocentrism, I don't know how Dorna can move much faster or further. Malaysia has been a rock for over 2 decades, adding Thailand and Indonesia makes a solid SE Asian presence. Getting back to South America has been difficult but necessary. But, that said, currently, most revenue is generated in Europe so, commercially, Euro races are very important. Adding India and China to the calendar would be helpful.

Protagonists (or just racers) speaking in their native tongues is, I believe, only an issue for native English speakers. I have never heard anything like this critique from my MGP-loving friends from Thailand or Indo or Malaysia, or India or France or Germany or Romania or Argentina... they are almost all multilingual and that sort of thing doesn't even register.
 
I'm struggling to imagine a more commercial business plan for Dorna/MGP... and how being more commercial improves the product or increases the core audience. The thing about ALL forms of racing is it does not have universal appeal, it is not a product like Coke, you need to have a certain affinity for the machines and the endeavour, the audience is limited by definition.

Re Eurocentrism, I don't know how Dorna can move much faster or further. Malaysia has been a rock for over 2 decades, adding Thailand and Indonesia makes a solid SE Asian presence. Getting back to South America has been difficult but necessary. But, that said, currently, most revenue is generated in Europe so, commercially, Euro races are very important. Adding India and China to the calendar would be helpful.

Protagonists (or just racers) speaking in their native tongues is, I believe, only an issue for native English speakers. I have never heard anything like this critique from my MGP-loving friends from Thailand or Indo or Malaysia, or India or France or Germany or Romania or Argentina... they are almost all multilingual and that sort of thing doesn't even register.

I think if you look at the strides F1 has made in the last couple of years it is definitely possible. The US is a neglected market, as is much of central and northern Europe. The sport doesn't need a consumer market in the traditional sense to be a successful entertainment product.

My point regarding the TV series is not so much that I am bothered by the lack of native English speakers personally (big fan of international cinema), but more so that it betrays the fact that MotoGP is absolutely not an international sport. Dorna is and always has been way too focused on the territories it understands and never had much success in expanding the product much further afield (with the baked in fanbases of the east a given). Having riders and tracks from other countries always helps, but the events are still quite niche and are not promoted with any real mainstream focus.

Although not directly relevant I think the expansion of the UFC internationally proves that even historically unpopular sports can gain a decent sized following and turn a great profit if the entertainment product is cheap to attend and widely televised without prohibitive cost attached. I am a season pass subscriber and the cost is quite frankly a joke. I share it with 3 friends and it is still deemed expensive, and it doesn't even include access to WSBK races despite Dorna holding rights to both championships. Plain greedy.

Dorna needs to do far more to support and expand feeder series across the globe, or at the very least provide a more accessible environment to riders from other series such as those that are supersport based. The fact those riders historically have been uncompetitive is the promoter and regulatory bodies problem to solve. In addition more needs to be done to create a more cohesive approach to the entertainment package. Little tech features on YouTube with Crafar are never going to work, and the E sports side of things is woefully under developed.

All in all I think Dorna has done a terrible job outside of its native Spain and neighbouring Italy. The on track show is the best form of motorsport on the planet in my opinion and they have done little but profiteer, when a truly visionary promoter could fairly easily widen the sports appeal. The fact that people regularly ask me how Rossi is getting on or if he still races, proves a single man did more to promote the sport indirectly through his own self interest, than Dorna has been able to achieve in that time, and with a decently sized budget. If anything, that should be viewed as a huge embarrassment and major failure for a business whose job it is to promote a sport.
 
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Dorna needs to do far more to support and expand feeder series across the globe, or at the very least provide a more accessible environment to riders from other series such as those that are supersport based. The fact those riders historically have been uncompetitive is the promoter and regulatory bodies problem to solve. In addition more needs to be done to create a more cohesive approach to the entertainment package. Little tech features on YouTube with Crafar are never going to work, and the E sports side of things is woefully under developed.

All in all I think Dorna has done a terrible job outside of its native Spain and neighbouring Italy. The on track show is the best form of motorsport on the planet in my opinion and they have done little but profiteer, when a truly visionary promoter could fairly easily widen the sports appeal. The fact that people regularly ask me how Rossi is getting on or if he still races, proves a single man did more to promote the sport indirectly through his own self interest, than Dorna has been able to achieve in that time, and with a decently sized budget. If anything, that should be viewed as a huge embarrassment and major failure for a business whose job it is to promote a sport.

Dorna need to work on their promotions activities, but currently they are too busy keeping the entire motorcycle racing industry afloat.

MotoGP cannot keep robbing the shareholders. You see anyone in the MSMA creating an entertaining cost effective formula? Me neither. They just keep making everything uglier, more expensive, and less entertaining.

I don't hold Dorna in particularly high esteem, and I said at the time that moving away from the 800s was a serious blunder because 5 manufacturers already had them, and they had agreed to rev limit at 19,000rpm and limit the number of engines. No one had a 1000cc engine at the time, and the proposed formula was less unique than what they were leaving behind. The fuel regulations were always the problem, not the displacement.

Anyway, I generally give Dorna a pass because they basically operating on their own. Are they shutting people out unnecessarily? or protecting the sport from pirates? Hard to say.
 
I think if you look at the strides F1 has made in the last couple of years it is definitely possible. The US is a neglected market, as is much of central and northern Europe. The sport doesn't need a consumer market in the traditional sense to be a successful entertainment product.

My point regarding the TV series is not so much that I am bothered by the lack of native English speakers personally (big fan of international cinema), but more so that it betrays the fact that MotoGP is absolutely not an international sport. Dorna is and always has been way too focused on the territories it understands and never had much success in expanding the product much further afield (with the baked in fanbases of the east a given). Having riders and tracks from other countries always helps, but the events are still quite niche and are not promoted with any real mainstream focus.

Although not directly relevant I think the expansion of the UFC internationally proves that even historically unpopular sports can gain a decent sized following and turn a great profit if the entertainment product is cheap to attend and widely televised without prohibitive cost attached. I am a season pass subscriber and the cost is quite frankly a joke. I share it with 3 friends and it is still deemed expensive, and it doesn't even include access to WSBK races despite Dorna holding rights to both championships. Plain greedy.

Dorna needs to do far more to support and expand feeder series across the globe, or at the very least provide a more accessible environment to riders from other series such as those that are supersport based. The fact those riders historically have been uncompetitive is the promoter and regulatory bodies problem to solve. In addition more needs to be done to create a more cohesive approach to the entertainment package. Little tech features on YouTube with Crafar are never going to work, and the E sports side of things is woefully under developed.

All in all I think Dorna has done a terrible job outside of its native Spain and neighbouring Italy. The on track show is the best form of motorsport on the planet in my opinion and they have done little but profiteer, when a truly visionary promoter could fairly easily widen the sports appeal. The fact that people regularly ask me how Rossi is getting on or if he still races, proves a single man did more to promote the sport indirectly through his own self interest, than Dorna has been able to achieve in that time, and with a decently sized budget. If anything, that should be viewed as a huge embarrassment and major failure for a business whose job it is to promote a sport.
Is F1 really comparable to any other race series? I'd say no. Merc has spent 1.2B+ over the last few years. There is zero equivalence, nor anything to learn there.

The USA is a unique market with their own, traditional, series and very limited interest in non-american sporting events (soccer, F1, MGP don't do as well in the USA for a reason).

I see very limited appeal for MGP as an "entertainment product" without prior interest.

I totally fail to understand your point that participants from a wide range of countries, speaking a wide range languages means that MGP is NOT an international sport, unless you are solely focused on MotoGP. In the lower classes, often watched as much, if not more than MotoGP itself by my SE Asian friends, they love hearing Thai, Bahasa Malay, and Bahasa Indo. The biggest future markets use small bikes, watch small bike racing and buy Repsol branded 150s. The sport is FAR from niche here.

Fight sport is an extremely poor comparison. You seem to fail to understand that fight sports DO have international, universal appeal, racing sports do not.

Dorna should most definitely not be trying to fund global feeder series. It would be impossible. And there is so much grass-roots racing of small cc bikes in developing countries it is totally unnecessary. What is required, as you mentioned, is a path to MGP for promising stars, Reza and Idemetsu have invested in this.

One thing always overlooked when judging the competitiveness of racers from where I'm from (equatorial region) is the geographic and cultural adjustments necessary along with the adjustments every non-equitorial rider must make when moving up classes. Subjective example: Wilairot was always slow after lunch in his first year in Europe - he was used to a traditional large lunch followed by rest in the heat of the afternoon. Taking riders from non-euro climates and geographies takes additional adjustments.

Currently I am preferring the on-track show of the S1GP championship to MGP. https://www.supermotos1gp.com/
 

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