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The $400 Million Dollar Question?

Joined Jul 2009
2K Posts | 50+
Alaska
As we all know, there has been a lot of .... flung at Ducati recently for the changes to their machinery to become competitive, the 'moving of Heaven and Earth' for Rossi and so on....



However, after reading a recent article on Motorcycleusa revealing the spending habits of the two big Japanese Manufactures in regards to their Motogp efforts in 2011, Honda being $400 Million and Yamaha being $280 Million, it is clear that Honda was already moving Heaven and earth at the end of last season to gain their first title for a number of years, and only potentially in the 800cc era.



Spending a whopping $120 Million more than Yamaha, one has to assume that in the current over-technical and engine restricted age, that this kind of investment from Honda is unbeatable across the season. And the results have shown with '4' factory riders all mostly in competition with themselves, bar one or two upsets caused by lots of hair and the weather........



Why in fact is there then so much criticism towards Ducati? They are just trying to compete with a giant that spends up big, I'm not aware of the spend from Ducati this season but one would have to assume that it isn't in the vicinity of Honda's, maybe not even Yamaha's.

'The rules' I hear many uttering, well IMO this is rubbish as the rules in regards to the capacity change are extremely vague and Ducati have not been investigated for any breach. This begs the question again, 'Who writes the rules?' Dorna and the MSMA, and who is the overwhelming influence at the MSMA, Honda of course. There isn't too much discussion here on this as it doesn't involve detraction from a particular rider.



Funny thing is that over the years we've seen major changes and revamps to Honda's and Yamaha's machinery throughout the season and little has been said, obviously Rossi and his woes at Ducati is great fodder, but is it that we have little else to talk about? Other than the Hairy one......
 
As we all know, there has been a lot of .... flung at Ducati recently for the changes to their machinery to become competitive, the 'moving of Heaven and Earth' for Rossi and so on....



However, after reading a recent article on Motorcycleusa revealing the spending habits of the two big Japanese Manufactures in regards to their Motogp efforts in 2011, Honda being $400 Million and Yamaha being $280 Million, it is clear that Honda was already moving Heaven and earth at the end of last season to gain their first title for a number of years, and only potentially in the 800cc era.



Spending a whopping $120 Million more than Yamaha, one has to assume that in the current over-technical and engine restricted age, that this kind of investment from Honda is unbeatable across the season. And the results have shown with '4' factory riders all mostly in competition with themselves, bar one or two upsets caused by lots of hair and the weather........



Why in fact is there then so much criticism towards Ducati? They are just trying to compete with a giant that spends up big, I'm not aware of the spend from Ducati this season but one would have to assume that it isn't in the vicinity of Honda's, maybe not even Yamaha's.

'The rules' I hear many uttering, well IMO this is rubbish as the rules in regards to the capacity change are extremely vague and Ducati have not been investigated for any breach. This begs the question again, 'Who writes the rules?' Dorna and the MSMA, and who is the overwhelming influence at the MSMA, Honda of course. There isn't too much discussion here on this as it doesn't involve detraction from a particular rider.



Funny thing is that over the years we've seen major changes and revamps to Honda's and Yamaha's machinery throughout the season and little has been said, obviously Rossi and his woes at Ducati is great fodder, but is it that we have little else to talk about? Other than the Hairy one......





If put it one Honda and Yamaha are the two brands that are making MotoGP what it is, If either if them decided to pack their bags. It would put a huge dent in the pinnacle of Motorcycle racing. However if Ducati decided to leave it wouldn't have a big effect, Motogp has been without them before and did pretty well for itself. Heck if Suzuki decided to leave it would cause a bigger upset than Ducati leaving. Now that is saying something.
 
As we all know, there has been a lot of .... flung at Ducati recently for the changes to their machinery to become competitive, the 'moving of Heaven and Earth' for Rossi and so on....



However, after reading a recent article on Motorcycleusa revealing the spending habits of the two big Japanese Manufactures in regards to their Motogp efforts in 2011, Honda being $400 Million and Yamaha being $280 Million, it is clear that Honda was already moving Heaven and earth at the end of last season to gain their first title for a number of years, and only potentially in the 800cc era.



Spending a whopping $120 Million more than Yamaha, one has to assume that in the current over-technical and engine restricted age, that this kind of investment from Honda is unbeatable across the season. And the results have shown with '4' factory riders all mostly in competition with themselves, bar one or two upsets caused by lots of hair and the weather........



Why in fact is there then so much criticism towards Ducati? They are just trying to compete with a giant that spends up big, I'm not aware of the spend from Ducati this season but one would have to assume that it isn't in the vicinity of Honda's, maybe not even Yamaha's.

'The rules' I hear many uttering, well IMO this is rubbish as the rules in regards to the capacity change are extremely vague and Ducati have not been investigated for any breach. This begs the question again, 'Who writes the rules?' Dorna and the MSMA, and who is the overwhelming influence at the MSMA, Honda of course. There isn't too much discussion here on this as it doesn't involve detraction from a particular rider.



Funny thing is that over the years we've seen major changes and revamps to Honda's and Yamaha's machinery throughout the season and little has been said, obviously Rossi and his woes at Ducati is great fodder, but is it that we have little else to talk about? Other than the Hairy one......

I don't think Honda will be happy until every bike on the grid is powered by them.
 
It seems as if it's all a very large 'dig' at the GOAT, that he was almost 2 seconds slower than Stoner on the same bike, something obviously had/has to be done.



I also think it's fun to see someone with an overly large ego eat some humble pie, doesn't matter who it is.
 
Have you got a link to the article?



Honda has always spent big dollars on their bikes, thats why they have had so much success (IMO)



Personally i dont care how much each team spends, as long as they make the sport better i dont think it matters.



The only thing im curious about is, I assume that 400 million is the 2011 budget? So would this include the money spent on the 2012 bike during this year?
 
It seems as if it's all a very large 'dig' at the GOAT, that he was almost 2 seconds slower than Stoner on the same bike, something obviously had/has to be done.



I also think it's fun to see someone with an overly large ego eat some humble pie, doesn't matter who it is.





in all honesty, i think if you or anyone for that matter was good enough to win 9 world titles, your ego would be larger than normal, wouldn't you agree?



And if we're talking about ego's, Stoners is def growing, his mutterings to the press are proof of that, surely the man with the biggest ego on the grid though is Jorge? Its the same in every sport...infact i just read a book about a sea harrier pilot who fought in the falklands, he came across as a bit of an egotistical ...... but he was probably the best pilot in the world at that particular time.
 
$400 Millions? What exactly is the source for that stratospheric number? The richest Formula 1 teams are rumored to spend around 290 millions so I very much doubt the figure.
 
Is that $400 million covering all 4 factory bikes? If that's the case then you could almost break it down to $100 million per bike/rider, where as Yamaha with 2 factory bikes would be $140 million per bike/rider.
 
$400M is probably the entire HRC budget and the entire motorcycle division of Honda R&D. It is unlikely that Honda and Yamaha are spending that kind of money on their MotoGP teams.



I think I read somewhere, might have been a Krop comment, that the Marlboro/Ducati deal is worth $25M. Maybe they get another $10M from Dorna and another $5M-$10M from other sponsors. No factory investment. I'd expect Honda to be spending 2x-3x as much as Ducati, but not 10x.
 
The big fuss about Ducati doing something desperate now is that they didn't do .... for Stoner, apart from what they felt was best...that surely wasn't.



But now things are different, they will be in the .... if they don't do what Rossi says. He will start blaming the team bike etc etc (see 2006-2007). If they do what Rossi says, witch they do, they will still be in the .... Because he will still blame it on the bike if at the end of the road he doesn't get some good results (see 2006-2007).



So how ever this goes, unless they start winning, (and even so some people would still find negative things to say) they are going to get the ..... for it day in day out.
 
As we all know, there has been a lot of .... flung at Ducati recently for the changes to their machinery to become competitive, the 'moving of Heaven and Earth' for Rossi and so on....



However, after reading a recent article on Motorcycleusa revealing the spending habits of the two big Japanese Manufactures in regards to their Motogp efforts in 2011, Honda being $400 Million and Yamaha being $280 Million, it is clear that Honda was already moving Heaven and earth at the end of last season to gain their first title for a number of years, and only potentially in the 800cc era.



Spending a whopping $120 Million more than Yamaha, one has to assume that in the current over-technical and engine restricted age, that this kind of investment from Honda is unbeatable across the season. And the results have shown with '4' factory riders all mostly in competition with themselves, bar one or two upsets caused by lots of hair and the weather........



Why in fact is there then so much criticism towards Ducati? They are just trying to compete with a giant that spends up big, I'm not aware of the spend from Ducati this season but one would have to assume that it isn't in the vicinity of Honda's, maybe not even Yamaha's.

'The rules' I hear many uttering, well IMO this is rubbish as the rules in regards to the capacity change are extremely vague and Ducati have not been investigated for any breach. This begs the question again, 'Who writes the rules?' Dorna and the MSMA, and who is the overwhelming influence at the MSMA, Honda of course. There isn't too much discussion here on this as it doesn't involve detraction from a particular rider.



Funny thing is that over the years we've seen major changes and revamps to Honda's and Yamaha's machinery throughout the season and little has been said, obviously Rossi and his woes at Ducati is great fodder, but is it that we have little else to talk about? Other than the Hairy one......



Seems your attitude towards Ducati has changed a little over the last 12 months Talps...... Why's that ??



$400 Millions? What exactly is the source for that stratospheric number? The richest Formula 1 teams are rumored to spend around 290 millions so I very much doubt the figure.



Agreed - there is no way in hell the HRC MotoGP budget is $ 400.0 mil.

I would be really surprised is they are spending $ 100.0 mil.



Bit different from WSBK teams spending $ 5.0 mil a year.
 
As we all know, there has been a lot of .... flung at Ducati recently for the changes to their machinery to become competitive, the 'moving of Heaven and Earth' for Rossi and so on....



However, after reading a recent article on Motorcycleusa revealing the spending habits of the two big Japanese Manufactures in regards to their Motogp efforts in 2011, Honda being $400 Million and Yamaha being $280 Million, it is clear that Honda was already moving Heaven and earth at the end of last season to gain their first title for a number of years, and only potentially in the 800cc era.



Spending a whopping $120 Million more than Yamaha, one has to assume that in the current over-technical and engine restricted age, that this kind of investment from Honda is unbeatable across the season. And the results have shown with '4' factory riders all mostly in competition with themselves, bar one or two upsets caused by lots of hair and the weather........



Why in fact is there then so much criticism towards Ducati? They are just trying to compete with a giant that spends up big, I'm not aware of the spend from Ducati this season but one would have to assume that it isn't in the vicinity of Honda's, maybe not even Yamaha's.

'The rules' I hear many uttering, well IMO this is rubbish as the rules in regards to the capacity change are extremely vague and Ducati have not been investigated for any breach. This begs the question again, 'Who writes the rules?' Dorna and the MSMA, and who is the overwhelming influence at the MSMA, Honda of course. There isn't too much discussion here on this as it doesn't involve detraction from a particular rider.



Funny thing is that over the years we've seen major changes and revamps to Honda's and Yamaha's machinery throughout the season and little has been said, obviously Rossi and his woes at Ducati is great fodder, but is it that we have little else to talk about? Other than the Hairy one......

Honda can throw as much money as they like at the bike within the rules, and so can ducati as far as I am concerned, and any championship win for ducati, the 2007 one or the perhaps forthcoming 2012 one, is a great achievement regardless of who is riding or developing, given the resources of their competition.



You know quite well the basis of all this, the many posts including from you concerning stoner winning the 2007 championship only by a huge equipment advantage (on a ducati !) and the present claims that the GP11 being a pig is his fault , even though ducati deliberately attempted to develop the GP10 and GP11 to suit riders other than him (obviously without much success with both the gp10 and gp11.0). I don't hear much from your side of the fence regarding rossi being to blame for the 2011 yamaha being disadvantaged in comparison to the 2011 honda which you guys also claim to be the case; in fact your contention is that this is lorenzo's fault, concerning which if I wanted to be vexatious I might see some inconsistency.
 
The big fuss about Ducati doing something desperate now is that they didn't do .... for Stoner, apart from what they felt was best...that surely wasn't.



Precisely... I don't think that anyone has a complaint that Ducati are throwing money into MotoGP... The only point of conjecture is as to why they had to wait until Rossi arrived to do it? They already had the winningest 800cc era rider in their employ & chose to do very little to assist him in his title chase against the might of the Honda & Yamaha behemoths during the previous couple of seasons...
 
Precisely... I don't think that anyone has a complaint that Ducati are throwing money into MotoGP... The only point of conjecture is as to why they had to wait until Rossi arrived to do it? They already had the winningest 800cc era rider in their employ & chose to do very little to assist him in his title chase against the might of the Honda & Yamaha behemoths during the previous couple of seasons...





Beautifully put.
 
talps maybe right.... there is a rumour or rumours circulating.....



If MotoGP doesn’t appeal to spectators its attraction for manufacturers is fast disappearing also. The informed gossip is that Honda’s MotoGP budget for 2011 is 300 million Euros – about $425 million. Yamaha is rumored to spend a smidgen over $280 million.



Think of those sums. How many bike shows, dealer launches, ride-outs, and festivals could a manufacturer attend for $400 million? As a festival organizer myself I will tell you: $400 million would get you representation at most of the major bike events in the world.



Attendance at these events is what sells bikes. Participating, unsuccessfully, in MotoGP doesn’t.



This concept hasn’t escaped Kawasaki, BMW, Aprilia, MV Agusta, Polaris, Triumph, Harley-Davidson and a host other manufacturers you’d never see near a GP circuit, but who are still doing very well in terms of sales.



Viewed objectively, one has to question which manufacturers in real, practical, sales generating terms benefit from MotoGP’s world-wide exposure. For example, if you see Alvaro Bautista bravely battling for 10th place does this make you want to rush out and buy a GSX-R600 – let alone a Suzuki Bandit





sorry talps not trying to hijack your post just backing you up in what your saying as it may be right.
 
It's not about who spends the biggest bucks win. It's all about ingenuity. You have to hire the right people and have the right equipment at hand. Numbers are all lies.............. who in their right mind would give out how much money they spend. It's political ........, trust me.
 
As we all know, there has been a lot of .... flung at Ducati recently for the changes to their machinery to become competitive, the 'moving of Heaven and Earth' for Rossi and so on....



However, after reading a recent article on Motorcycleusa revealing the spending habits of the two big Japanese Manufactures in regards to their Motogp efforts in 2011, Honda being $400 Million and Yamaha being $280 Million, it is clear that Honda was already moving Heaven and earth at the end of last season to gain their first title for a number of years, and only potentially in the 800cc era.



Spending a whopping $120 Million more than Yamaha, one has to assume that in the current over-technical and engine restricted age, that this kind of investment from Honda is unbeatable across the season. And the results have shown with '4' factory riders all mostly in competition with themselves, bar one or two upsets caused by lots of hair and the weather........



Why in fact is there then so much criticism towards Ducati? They are just trying to compete with a giant that spends up big, I'm not aware of the spend from Ducati this season but one would have to assume that it isn't in the vicinity of Honda's, maybe not even Yamaha's.

'The rules' I hear many uttering, well IMO this is rubbish as the rules in regards to the capacity change are extremely vague and Ducati have not been investigated for any breach. This begs the question again, 'Who writes the rules?' Dorna and the MSMA, and who is the overwhelming influence at the MSMA, Honda of course. There isn't too much discussion here on this as it doesn't involve detraction from a particular rider.



Funny thing is that over the years we've seen major changes and revamps to Honda's and Yamaha's machinery throughout the season and little has been said, obviously Rossi and his woes at Ducati is great fodder, but is it that we have little else to talk about? Other than the Hairy one......



I rarely answer a question with a question; but really why do people ask questions when they already know the answer?



The simple answer to your question is, some folks feel that Ducati sat on their hands design-wise for season after season

while talented riders were derided and vilified over poor results on Ducatis, their careers allowed to go down the toilet,

because the engineers were arrogantly turning a blind eye to the shortcomings of their design philosophy.



Only now when when their noses are rubbed in the .... of Rossi's poor results do they finally get around to admitting they've had their heads in the clouds these last 4 years.
 
Seems your attitude towards Ducati has changed a little over the last 12 months Talps...... Why's that ??

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If put it one Honda and Yamaha are the two brands that are making MotoGP what it is, If either if them decided to pack their bags. It would put a huge dent in the pinnacle of Motorcycle racing. However if Ducati decided to leave it wouldn't have a big effect, Motogp has been without them before and did pretty well for itself. Heck if Suzuki decided to leave it would cause a bigger upset than Ducati leaving. Now that is saying something.



<


Care to elaborate. Because I cant see how suzuki taking their one bike off the grid would compare to ducati taking six bikes off the grid.



Sincerely,

Joel
 
If put it one Honda and Yamaha are the two brands that are making MotoGP what it is, If either if them decided to pack their bags. It would put a huge dent in the pinnacle of Motorcycle racing. However if Ducati decided to leave it wouldn't have a big effect, Motogp has been without them before and did pretty well for itself. Heck if Suzuki decided to leave it would cause a bigger upset than Ducati leaving. Now that is saying something.



LOL what a tool you are. How many riders are on Ducati? What will be left of the already slim motoGP grid if 25% of the bikes will leave?
 

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