Thank You God for Stoner and Ducati

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Oct 12 2008, 04:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Rossi obviously won the 2008 championship very well. Even accepting set up and/or tyre woes and a mechanical dnf equivalent for casey earlier, and presumed physical impairment later in the season, at laguna seca and brno when the championship was still in play and casey was arguably on a faster bike valentino delivered in spades. There is no point making excuses in any case, except for circumstances totally beyond the rider's or team's control such as being taken out by another rider's error.

One of rossi's greatest attributes is that he is a pure racer, and over his career has tried to win nearly every race regardless of circumstances. If he has not done it this year I would actually take it as a sign of respect to the competition, although to me he looked pretty keen to win in the 5 races before PI. I don't think even he, strategist though he is, would deliberately crash as he did in practice at PI for tactical or strategic advantage.


I wonder why you say Casey is on a faster bike Michaelm?
The Duc is bucking & squirming all over the place, I saw it first hand at PI. The Yammies look like they are very stable indeed. Why is it one bike is considered the faster bike because it tops out at 3 - 5 kmh faster in the main straight? But the other bike turns much more easily and can brake later. Who did Vale have more trouble passing at PI? Toseland on another Yamaha that's who. The Duc's strengths seem to be raw power, whereas the Yamaha seems to be more agile and is more stable in the braking zones. Don't get me wrong, a certain #46 is the bees knees when it comes to riders, but saying he is on inferior machinery this year is pushing the limits.
Now before others jump on me let me say this. Vale thoroughly deserved to win the championship this year and was clearly the best rider over the course of the season. One mistake all year is an example of his skill and professionalism. No way in the world is this the last championship we will see Vale take, But I think a certain rider who will wear the number 27 next year will make him earn all of them from now on. I also expect a certain #69 to drop a few jaws now that he is out of the influence of Puig's Repsol Honda team.

Go the red beasts

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frizzle @ Oct 12 2008, 08:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I wonder why you say Casey is on a faster bike Michaelm?
I did say arguably. I actually think it is hard to know, particularly given the different characters of the bikes as you say. What I meant was that in those 2 races in particular when stoner/ducati looked overwhelming up until the race started rossi/jb performed wonders over the course of the weekend to get the bike set up to be competitive and rossi rode exceedingly well when you wouldn't have thought (I didn't anyway) that the rossi/yamaha package had a chance of staying with stoner/ducati.

I am not giving up on stoner for next year though, particularly if the bike is better sorted for the early races of the season.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Oct 12 2008, 03:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Glad to be back [@ ‘Introductions’ Reply from me].

I don´t know, so here it goes… I think Rossi never showed [All season and PI too] his cards completely, just enough to give and get a fight, or as he says, “great battle for sure”. I mean, already had the Championship in the bag, and could have tried to catch the lead, but instead started to get to know new and future opponents [Toseland in this case]. And why not, give in one Championship worthless win getting a second place, but really play it with your head ‘sizing up opponents’ instead!

With respects I would have to disagree fully with what you have said as I do not see a way, any way that VR would 'settle' for a lesser position solely for the purpose of 'playing with' or even 'assess' possible future rivals. I say this purely as VR is a racer first and that means that with second not being acceptable he will not 'waste time' to 'assess' riders, he will simply blast past and chase the next rider.

IMO, to say he did this with Toseland is selling JT short on what I believe was his best ride of the season.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Oct 12 2008, 06:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So if he found himself starting from 12 at very well known to Stoner’s fast flowing track


Again, with full respects it would be safe to say that Phillip Island is more well known to Rossi than it is to Stoner.

Yes, Stoner is an Australian but he did not race in Australia on road circuits whith his first PI race being the 125cc GP a few years ago. Rossi on the other hand has been riding PI for a great number of years and both camps would likely test at the circuit.





Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andy Roo @ Oct 12 2008, 05:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If Casey wins another race or even two races then the wins are going to be pretty close and little factors like the lack of a decent teammate for Casey or the tyre wars and the “Ducati betrayal” will devalue Rossi’s championship.
wtf does a decent team mate have to do the value of your championship ? rossi doesnt require a team mate to take points from his competitors, he knows the sure way to get points is to win races. are you blaming marco for stoners championship loss ??

are you saying rossis championship is de valued because he switched to bridgstones ? and what Ducati betrayal ?

<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%<span style="font-family:Arial<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andy Roo @ Oct 12 2008, 02:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>

<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%<span style="font-family:ArialI still have to disagree (respectfully)... He may be the G.O.A.T but I think Nicki and James deserve a little more credit than being relegated to the roles of unwitting pawns in Vale's master plan to come 2nd at P.I...

<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%<span style="font-family:Arial


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 12 2008, 04:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>...to say he did this with Toseland is selling JT short on what I believe was his best ride of the season...
Garry

<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%<span style="font-family:ArialWright Roo and Gaz. My point ["very well known to Stoner's fast flowing track" and "sizing up opponents"] would have been at a track that suits Ducati by flowing [Maybe Yamaha too] but definitely Ducati, unlike 'Stop and Go" type of tracks. A track that suits Stonner's riding style [Maybe Rossi's too] but definitely Stoner's. A track, 'home' track, that benefits home riders [Rossi has a lot of fans at Australia also I think]. I am saying Rossi would have loved to win, but he has learned that some you win, some you do not [in this case mid way through the race perhaps]. Throughout his entire career, Rossi has not only raced, but studied opponents (I am not making any of them less, great opponents) in and out of the track. Therefore, knowing his a strategist too, I have that little bugging doubt!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Oct 12 2008, 10:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Again, with full respects it would be safe to say that Phillip Island is more well known to Rossi than it is to Stoner.

Yes, Stoner is an Australian but he did not race in Australia on road circuits whith his first PI race being the 125cc GP a few years ago. Rossi on the other hand has been riding PI for a great number of years and both camps would likely test at the circuit.


Garry

I don't fall for the old 'he knows the track better' nowadays.... all teams have the data available.

The Ducati is not so much the 'faster' bike, but it is the bike with the most power. That can translate or not in a higher top speeds according to setup, but it certainly translates almost always in faster accelerations out of corners.

Stability and rider-friendliness are Ducati's weak spots, so it needs a rider like Casey Stoner (or probably like Nicky Hayden) who doesn't care if the bike gets out of shape and just keep the throttle open.

The Yamaha this year is a top bike, and Rossi has readily admitted his bike is 'very competitive'. He has said this repeatedly, he's not taking the credit all to himself.

The 'best' bike does not exist. Certainly the Yam is easier than the Ducati, which in turn has more raw power. They are both 'among the best'. In the end, it all comes down to the right rider-bike-tire combination... and also some luck

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (an4rew @ Oct 12 2008, 04:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I don't fall for the old 'he knows the track better' nowadays.... all teams have the data available.


True and whilst I dod not say that he knows the track better, it should be recognised that there is only so much information that data can supply before rider familiarity comes into play.

As an example, data can supply feedback with regards to the bike/equipment performance but it cannot provide the rider with such information as the wind direction and the amount of counteracting wind as is often experienced at PI. Nor where the win is strongest or those little areas where you emerge from shelter into the full blast of a wind direct from Bass Strait. Only experience of riding and familiarising yourself with a circuit will educate the rider about the individual nuances of each and every circuit.

That ois not to say that Rossi has more experience in these conditions that Stoner at that PI but I would be confident to say that Rossi has completed more laps at PI (which wast he intent of my original reply).






Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Oct 13 2008, 06:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The Ducati is not so much the 'faster' bike, but it is the bike with the most power. That can translate or not in a higher top speeds according to setup, but it certainly translates almost always in faster accelerations out of corners.

Stability and rider-friendliness are Ducati's weak spots, so it needs a rider like Casey Stoner (or probably like Nicky Hayden) who doesn't care if the bike gets out of shape and just keep the throttle open.

The Yamaha this year is a top bike, and Rossi has readily admitted his bike is 'very competitive'. He has said this repeatedly, he's not taking the credit all to himself.

The 'best' bike does not exist. Certainly the Yam is easier than the Ducati, which in turn has more raw power. They are both 'among the best'. In the end, it all comes down to the right rider-bike-tire combination... and also some luck


Spot on J4rn0

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frizzle @ Oct 12 2008, 12:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'><u>Who did Vale have more trouble passing at PI</u>? Toseland on another Yamaha that's who. The Duc's strengths seem to be raw power, whereas the Yamaha seems to be more agile and is more stable in the braking zones. Don't get me wrong, a certain #46 is the bees knees when it comes to riders, but saying he is on inferior machinery this year is pushing the limits.


I would say it was Stoner on the Duc

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SackWack @ Oct 13 2008, 07:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I would say it was Stoner on the Duc

+1

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Oct 13 2008, 01:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>wtf does a decent team mate have to do the value of your championship ? rossi doesnt require a team mate to take points from his competitors, he knows the sure way to get points is to win races. are you blaming marco for stoners championship loss ??

are you saying rossis championship is de valued because he switched to bridgstones ? and what Ducati betrayal ?

Someone like Dani openly uses teammates to help develop the bike, with Rossi less so but they would have better data from Lorenzo than they would from Melandri who disguised his GP8 as a CB250 with Ducati fairings.

The tyre war, the interference of Ezy who manipulated agreements (contracts) freely entered into by Yamaha and Honda (I mean a split garage, really?) and the stigma of the logical and convincingly argued assertion that the series was manipulated (the Ducati betrayal) means the following.

If Casey were too close to Vale at the end of the year this would devalue the championship win.

Ergo

Vale wants to win as many as possible

Therefore

I don’t think Vale held back at Phillip Island.


None of these propositions has to be true, that is not the point, but they have been stated in the press already (and as recently as this week). A close championship (number of wins) could be argued to be a moral victory to Stoner just as the race wins were to Rossi in 2006.

In the context of this discussion it is a valid proposition.

Cheers.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andy Roo @ Oct 13 2008, 12:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Someone like Dani openly uses teammates to help develop the bike, with Rossi less so but they would have better data from Lorenzo than they would from Melandri who disguised his GP8 as a CB250 with Ducati fairings.

The tyre war, the interference of Ezy who manipulated agreements (contracts) freely entered into by Yamaha and Honda (I mean a split garage, really?) and the stigma of the logical and convincingly argued assertion that the series was manipulated (the Ducati betrayal) means the following.

If Casey were too close to Vale at the end of the year this would devalue the championship win.

Ergo

Vale wants to win as many as possible

Therefore

I don’t think Vale held back at Phillip Island.


None of these propositions has to be true, that is not the point, but they have been stated in the press already (and as recently as this week). A close championship (number of wins) could be argued to be a moral victory to Stoner just as the race wins were to Rossi in 2006.

In the context of this discussion it is a valid proposition.

Cheers.
thats some lame .... mate and you know it !
rossi would not need nor want data from lorenzo because A he is a rookie and B there on differant tyres and because of this the garage is split so no data sharing.

your second point about ezy bla bla bla. who ....... cares ? rossi got new rubber, he struggled at first with it then got to grips and won the wc, hardly devalues his championship does it ?

and the third point, rossi won the wc with races to spare so regardless if casey wins the remaing races rossi is still the champ who won by quite a margin.

geez, get over it.

ps/ im still waiting for this info on why guinters is a bad person bla bla bla,, remember ??

I think at PI rossi fell off during qualifying which cut into his set up time and left him banged up and well back on the grid, all of these occurrences leading to him being not able to be close enough regardless of his genius to put any pressure on stoner who had the luxury of lapping for the majority of the last ten laps, when his wrist injury may have started to tell, 1.5 seconds or more off the extreme single lap pace he demonstrated in the warm-up.

The plausible component of the tyre conspiracy theory to me is that dorna could have for whatever reason including speed/safety or closer racing tried to dumb down the tyre technology in general in 2008 with greater effect on stoner/ducati than others given their apparently more extreme tyre requirements. However it remains entirely possible and is supported by statements by ducati and stoner that they got the set-up, electronics or even elements of the basic engineering of the bike wrong when he had the problems early in the year. On the other hand, I also think it is unlikely that casey's wrist injury is fictional as some have suggested given that it would require Dr Costa and Clinica Mobile to be involved in the conspiracy.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Oct 13 2008, 11:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>thats some lame .... mate and you know it !
rossi would not need nor want data from lorenzo because A he is a rookie and B there on differant tyres and because of this the garage is split so no data sharing.

your second point about ezy bla bla bla. who ....... cares ? rossi got new rubber, he struggled at first with it then got to grips and won the wc, hardly devalues his championship does it ?

and the third point, rossi won the wc with races to spare so regardless if casey wins the remaing races rossi is still the champ who won by quite a margin.

geez, get over it.

ps/ im still waiting for this info on why guinters is a bad person bla bla bla,, remember ??

It was lame I agree, however that doesn't mean lame won’t happen, lame excuses followed Nicki's win in the championship. To be fair I said that none of the propositions had to be true, but why wouldn't Vale just want to dominate? Why leave any lingering doubt?

The idea that Vale was in cruise mode was lame and got a little airplay, so I thought we were doing lame.

Apologise for that lameness.

Haven't given the guinters article another thought to be honest. I'll get back to you; I need something to do for the afternoon.