Test times Australia

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Dec 10 2008, 05:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>IMO (and I know you disagree), I feel that the Suzuki stuff was a likely smokescreen as Spies wanted a competitive ride, which he now has in a more 'genial' series. He can now learn and develop away from the MotoGP spotlight with no real (outside) pressure for success and as such he will likely be a far better rider when he enters MotoGP in 2010 to replace CE.
Uhm, I'm not so sure it was all a "smokescreen". I think both Spies and Rizla Suzuki intended to see what was what. I think Paul Denning's ego crapped a giant .... on what otherwise was a goodfaith attempt to check out the talent and viability of a ride. It all went south, and despite a good mix and potential for improved direction, it was doomed to go nowhere once the people in charged listened to Denning's blinded arrogance.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Dec 11 2008, 07:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Uhm, I'm not so sure it was all a "smokescreen". I think both Spies and Rizla Suzuki intended to see what was what. I think Paul Denning's ego crapped a giant .... on what otherwise was a goodfaith attempt to check out the talent and viability of a ride. It all went south, and despite a good mix and potential for improved direction, it was doomed to go nowhere once the people in charged listened to Denning's blinded arrogance.

I have no doubt that Denning and ego played a part and personally feel that the Assen situation (was that where Spies declined the ride after Capriex pulled out?), played a big part in Denning's apparent change of attitude.

I also tend to think that Spies cooled on the idea of Suzuki as it was a clearly non-competitive package by comparison to the Honda/Yamaha packages. After all, what rider who has been a t the top of the tree for three years being handsomely paid in that time would want to take a step as far backward as the Suzuki has been (again, this is by comparison).

Spies showed enough in his three race tenure in MotoGP to get the interest of other teams which is all he intended or wanted to achieve (IMO). This has now led to a better opportunity than Suzuki offerred at the time and allows him a year out of the MotoGP spotlight to acclimatise to teh lifestyle, countries and team before he enters the MotoGP game.

IMO, he has chosen a far better path than that offerred by Suzuki as when he enters the game he will be on a competitive machine that is very capable of placing highly wet or dry.

Whilst I have said elsehwere that he will likely replace CE I will also be totally honest aand suggest that he could possibly slot into the FIAT team as #2 to Rossi as I simply cannot see Lorenzo playing second fiddle for much longer.

Either way, I do believe that there was a lot of 'play' around Spies and Suzuki (play being from both sides) and being fair Spies being contracted as a Suzuki Rider (albeit national) had to say the right things and give the right impressions, which he did.

Time will tell and next year is a big test as if he is successful (and early impressions are good) than more doors will open and who knows, he may reveal the extravagant talent that some have reported him as posessing (not judging, just saying that to date I haven't seen it as we don't really get AMA in Oz).




Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Dec 11 2008, 01:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>IMO..
As usual Garry, great post.

Ok. lets shelve Spies aside for a moment.

What do you think Suzuki need to do to improve their MotoGP success? (Anybody can contribute).

Now, let me say that I do have more respect for Suzuki than say Kawasaki (who have been a joke) as a manufacture in racing. Suzuki has teased us in its history by a few titles, but really, they have been with special riders. They seem to have the capacity to compete but just not front runners. Ok, a little credit, they did manage to finish a respectable top 5 in last year of 990s. But nothing really fantastic for many years. What needs to change?

Now it looks like things are gonna change again, MotoGP cannot sustain the pocketbook war under this economic condition. Suzuki have had success in other series (AMA & WSBK). I can't believe its just an issue of throwing money at a problem since the tiny Ducati factory has dispelled this myth.

So what is the solution?

(Just a side question to spark some interest in this topic; (hypothetical disclaimer) What would change or happen if Valentino Rossi became a Suzuki rider in MotoGP?)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Dec 12 2008, 04:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Whilst I have said elsehwere that he will likely replace CE I will also be totally honest aand suggest that he could possibly slot into the FIAT team as #2 to Rossi as I simply cannot see Lorenzo playing second fiddle for much longer.
Garry

Where is Lorenzo gonna go that is a competitive factory ride other than Fiat/Yam? He'll wait out Rossi (retiring in '10?) and be #1 and Spies will move over from WSB to be his #2... what d'ya think?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Dec 11 2008, 06:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Where is Lorenzo gonna go that is a competitive factory ride other than Fiat/Yam? He'll wait out Rossi (retiring in '10?) and be #1 and Spies will move over from WSB to be his #2... what d'ya think?

What are you talking about? He's going to be breathing down Rossi's neck next year, he ain't no Colin Edwards.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Dec 12 2008, 03:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Where is Lorenzo gonna go that is a competitive factory ride other than Fiat/Yam?
As has been said before, in my opinion with some plausibility (before their recent budgetary concerns at least), HRC/repsol honda.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Dec 12 2008, 02:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Where is Lorenzo gonna go that is a competitive factory ride other than Fiat/Yam? He'll wait out Rossi (retiring in '10?) and be #1 and Spies will move over from WSB to be his #2... what d'ya think?


I recall reading somewhere (web) that Lorenzo wants the #1 spot in a team in 2010 (wanted it in 2009 but VR stayed put) and there was discussion of Honda/Yamaha (not FIAT).

Not saying it is a given as I would be surprised to see Lorenzo leave Yamaha but as MichaelM says, Honda may well be calling if DP's performances do not lift (HRC badly want a championship).







Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Dec 12 2008, 11:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I recall reading somewhere (web) that Lorenzo wants the #1 spot in a team in 2010 (wanted it in 2009 but VR stayed put) and there was discussion of Honda/Yamaha (not FIAT).

Not saying it is a given as I would be surprised to see Lorenzo leave Yamaha but as MichaelM says, Honda may well be calling if DP's performances do not lift (HRC badly want a championship).

Garry

I would personally be somewhat surprised that if Dovi or DeA didn't step up that factory Honda wouldn't draw from within its vast international pool of talented riders as it has done in the past. Also why would Lorenzo step down to a non-factory ride - what satellite teams have produced a champion in recent memory?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Dec 12 2008, 05:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I would personally be somewhat surprised that if Dovi or DeA didn't step up that factory Honda wouldn't draw from within its vast international pool of talented riders as it has done in the past. Also why would Lorenzo step down to a non-factory ride - what satellite teams have produced a champion in recent memory?


If I remember the article correctly (and that is if) the ride with Yamaha would not be a 'second tier' but full factory with his own sponsorship (ie. a single bike team or equal #1).

There was no real mention of Tech 3 just that it owudl not be FIAT as it was said that FIAT is a VR sponsor and would likely go where he goes.

As for Honda, the article was mid-year which was prior to Dovisioso getting the HRC ride and really DeA has not shown enough yet.

I do think that Honda is a possibility as they would be getting desperate for another championship and have not yet gotten the return from their investment in DP. Should DP not produce in 2009 I fully expect Honda to try to buy an existing recent champion and if we look at recent history loyalty by HRC does not exist (and I do not mean Hayden there).





Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Dec 12 2008, 05:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I would personally be somewhat surprised that if Dovi or DeA didn't step up that factory Honda wouldn't draw from within its vast international pool of talented riders as it has done in the past?
I think garry has stated the lorenzo to honda case well (as he often does on many topics) and I agree with him that such a move whilst perhaps not exactly likely is not all that out there either if dani is an also-ran in 2009. I think it is quite salient in these financially straitened times that the factory honda team are commonly known as repsol honda, and apart from (in my opinion) probably Dovi and certainly DeA not being as good as george laurence, they are also quite reprehensibly non- spanish .

Well guys I still go by the Ben Franklin philosophy, "believe none of what you hear and half of what you see", and IMHO I don't see Yamaha going for two number one riders well Vale's around, no matter what "the article" says. So I think we'll be waiting for Rossi to retire before Jorge's a number one with Yamaha.

In recent history what factory Honda rider didn't come through the Honda ranks? Dani, yep. Nicky, yep. Vale, yep. Ukawa, yep. That's enough recent history for me.

Everyone seems to go with the Spanish thing with Repsol, but prior to Dani it didn't matter to them (Creville's a long time ago) and who's to say it did when they hired Dani - or did they just take the most promising rider out of the Honda ranks?

Anyway its all off season speculation so HTF knows - I just don't see it happening the way your mutual admiration society is spinning it!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Dec 11 2008, 01:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yeah, I saw one on the track as I passed it on the outside...on my supermoto.

Means only a good rider on a slow bike passed a poor rider on a fast bike. Happens all the time, actually most of the time.

Denning...Denning...DENNING!! Say it like Marsha...Marsha...MARSHA!! like in the Brady Bunch. Get over Spies and Suzuki it is done. Spies is in a better position by far and the motogp team will continue to underwhelm. Who cares? There are bigger problems in the world than this.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Dec 12 2008, 03:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>In recent history what factory Honda rider didn't come through the Honda ranks? Vale, yep..

Everyone seems to go with the Spanish thing with Repsol, but prior to Dani it didn't matter to them (Creville's a long time ago) and who's to say it did when they hired Dani - or did they just take the most promising rider out of the Honda ranks?

Of course it is just speculation but there is nothing else to do during the winter and/or summer break (as the case may be).

I take it they were honda aprilias rossi rode in the 125s and 250s.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Dec 12 2008, 07:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Spies is in a better position by far and the motogp team will continue to underwhelm. Who cares? There are bigger problems in the world than this.

Well no ..... This thread (and the subtopics) have revolved around Suzuki's MotoGP team, NOT the solution to world hunger.

So you are a Suzuki fan, that is obvious enough. You say get over Spies, why? It is relevant and exposed some shortcomings of the ailing Suzuki GP team which seems to have NO forward leadership nor plan for significant improvement. So don't get annoyed that Spies who may have represented a new direction (at very least young blood) to catalyze a change is brought up as relevant in at very least highlighting some management failure. So maybe "you should get over Spies" and stop whining about what he may have represented when I bring it up for discussion and perhaps contribute to the question: How can Suzuki GP make a significant leap forward.

Gfan, I don't think you realize, but I'm a fan of Suzuki just like you. One of the greatest racers I admire won the 1993 world championship. So I am also frustrated to see this brand (which does make great bikes--both my track bikes are Suzukis GSXR & DRZ). So as I see it, these little baby steps of small and minor improvements (as I see it, the bamboozling of Suzuki fans into believing that they are actually doing something positive) has been nothing but more of the same old .....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Dec 12 2008, 04:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>How can Suzuki GP make a significant leap forward.

build a better moto gp bike, hopefully the best one of the lot...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Dec 12 2008, 11:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I take it they were honda aprilias rossi rode in the 125s and 250s.
OOPs, my bad.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Dec 12 2008, 03:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I take it they were honda aprilias rossi rode in the 125s and 250s.


You can add Mick Doohan to that list as well Michael.

He was riding Yamaha's forthe then Marlboro Factory Superbike team when spotted and offerred the Honda contract.



Additionally, if Honda looked after those from within the likes of Toseland, Vermuelen, Edwards etc would have all been offerred Honda's on their MotoGP entry and were not, instead they all were ignored for various reasons and entered MotoGP by various methods/manufacturers.


IMO, Honda follows the business philosophy of looking after oneself first (ie. Honda) and I do not see an issue wiith that as MotoGP is not a sport but a business. Bringing in talented riders (not altogether undeserving either) who offer something by way of dollar return due to sponsorship, marketing opportunities (be they current or potential) is a risk that may well pay off (ie. Hayden) and therefore produce a return on investment that outweighs the risk.







Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Dec 12 2008, 10:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You can add Mick Doohan to that list as well Michael.

He was riding Yamaha's forthe then Marlboro Factory Superbike team when spotted and offerred the Honda contract.



Additionally, if Honda looked after those from within the likes of Toseland, Vermuelen, Edwards etc would have all been offerred Honda's on their MotoGP entry and were not, instead they all were ignored for various reasons and entered MotoGP by various methods/manufacturers.


IMO, Honda follows the business philosophy of looking after oneself first (ie. Honda) and I do not see an issue wiith that as MotoGP is not a sport but a business. Bringing in talented riders (not altogether undeserving either) who offer something by way of dollar return due to sponsorship, marketing opportunities (be they current or potential) is a risk that may well pay off (ie. Hayden) and therefore produce a return on investment that outweighs the risk.







Garry
Also max biaggi and eddie lawson, to belabour the point.

I actually think mick doohan and wayne gardner provide evidence for the contrary position regarding honda, as they both would appear to have been and to remain strong honda loyalists, loyalty reciprocated by honda; perhaps honda were different then.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Dec 12 2008, 01:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>IMO, Honda follows the business philosophy of looking after oneself first (ie. Honda) and I do not see an issue wiith that as MotoGP is not a sport but a business. Bringing in talented riders (not altogether undeserving either) who offer something by way of dollar return due to sponsorship, marketing opportunities (be they current or potential) is a risk that may well pay off (ie. Hayden) and therefore produce a return on investment that outweighs the risk.

They ...... up when they let Rossi go!! Stick to the plan Honda.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SackWack @ Dec 13 2008, 05:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>They ...... up when they let Rossi go!! Stick to the plan Honda.


They didn't think so at the time though and IMO it is this arrogance that has them in the position in which they find themselves now in terms of results (or lack of).





Garry