Suzuki files for bankruptcy

Jumkie · Nov 28, 2012

mylexicon said:
When the global credit crisis hit, the Germans and the Japanese didn't fall. It was American unions who were bailed out.

The "credit crisis", ah, an act of God, surely thats what you believe. Newflash, it was created, and the people who created it are the ..... you seek to protect from blame. While you blame the floor workers who have negotiated living wages. Those floor workers are not spending their winters in the Caymen Islands soaking the sunshine counting their money. Its the executives you google genius.

mylexicon · Nov 28, 2012

Jumkie said:
The "credit crisis", ah, an act of God, surely thats what you believe. Newflash, it was created, and the people who created it are the ..... you seek to protect from blame. While you blame the floor workers who have negotiated living wages. Those floor workers are not spending their winters in the Caymen Islands soaking the sunshine counting their money. Its the executives you google genius.

For hundreds of years, bankers have been tarred and feathered and sent to the death camps for refusing to lend money to people who 'need' it or for charging absurdly high interest rates. The most diabolical empire of the modern age blamed bankers for the carnage of war and the unfavorable conditions in the Treaty of Versailles.

We have a global credit crisis caused by bankers who lend excessively at below-market interest rates. You expect me to throw bricks through their windows and then jail them for life.

Grow up. Our government paid bankers and shareholders hundreds of billions of dollars to wreck our economy b/c McMansion ownership was a key part of the American dream. The vessel to achieve Subprime Utopia was a government program used to combat stagflation, an economic situation our country had not known since the early 1980s. ....... re-purposed the CRA as an anti-racism bill, and since then, the CRA has been completely uncontrollable and irreparable. If you touch it, you're racist.

We didn't get robbed. We reaped what we sowed.

Dr No · Nov 28, 2012

Bsnell said:
I'm not a silver spooner, I got an education and worked and probably know far more than you ever will about the business.

Well, you said you were. And you've yet to demonstrate any of your knowledge about 'the business'.

Ex boyfriend? thats a good one, i'll have to remember that one next time i'm climbing off your mum

Necrophile.

Dr No · Nov 28, 2012

mylexicon said:
Reasonable people despise American unions b/c they are incompetent. Competent European unions, who generally seek to work with management (like Japanese unions) have allowed companies like Volkswagen Group to vertically integrate and leverage their labor pool to strengthen profitability and employment. Volkswagen Group employs more people than the Big 3 auto manufacturers combined, and VW is more profitable.

Employment is not the goal of American unions. They are corrupt social agitators who spread their message of perpetually higher nominal wages (not quality of life) to developing nations to convince them to forfeit their competitive labor advantage.

When the global credit crisis hit, the Germans and the Japanese didn't fall. It was American unions who were bailed out.

German unions often have representatives on company boards, something I think is a good measure. Tying them somewhat into the decisions of the company, but also removing some of the usual management v employee antagonism. Not all of it, mind you. IGM don't mind getting rowdy.

But the whole issue of Industrial Relations and the success/failure of respective car industries is effin' complex. UAW costs are definitely a drag on the Big 3, but there was a whole lot of incompetence (in design, in planning, in product quality and mix) that meant that they were flying a brick anyway.

[VW is definitely more profitable but they don't employ more people than the formerly Big 3]

mylexicon · Nov 28, 2012

Dr No said:
[VW is definitely more profitable but they don't employ more people than the formerly Big 3]

According to the 2012 Global 500 list (FYE 2011):

VW: 501,956

GM: 207,000

Ford: 164,000

Chrysler: 55,687

Volkswagen is vertically integrated so it's not exactly apples to apples, but this is the statistic used to encourage vertical integration in the US auto industry, and to show the viability of leveraging labor and parts specialization for big ticket manufactured goods.

Dr No · Nov 28, 2012

mylexicon said:
According to the 2012 Global 500 list (FYE 2011):

VW: 501,956

GM: 207,000

Ford: 164,000

Chrysler: 55,687

Volkswagen is vertically integrated so it's not exactly apples to apples, but this is the statistic used to encourage vertical integration in the US auto industry, and to show the viability of leveraging labor and parts specialization for big ticket manufactured goods.

Interesting, Lex. My off handed numbers were about 350K for VW, and 200K each for GM and Ford. No idea about Chryco (with or without FIAT)

In what way is VW more vertically integrated than say, GM, Honda or Toyota ? They utilise the specialist supplier base like everyone else.

Leaving aside comparisons of invidual cars, I'd say their success is somewhat attributable to successfully differentiating their various marques such that they don't overlap and fight each other in the marketplace - there's some issue with Skoda and SEAT and where they sit on the ladder - but VW has performed a better job of implementing Sloane's "Car for every purse and purpose" than GM.

mylexicon · Nov 28, 2012

Dr No said:
Interesting, Lex. My off handed numbers were about 350K for VW, and 200K each for GM and Ford. No idea about Chryco (with or without FIAT)

In what way is VW more vertically integrated than say, GM, Honda or Toyota ? They utilise the specialist supplier base everyone else.

VW added over 100,000 employees in FY 2011 to eclipse 500,000 employees, and they have supposedly added another 50,000 YTD 2012. That's why the number is significantly different that your older data.

VW have always had more vertical integration b/c they produce transmissions and such in-house, but it was impossible to keep this arrangement running for 5-6 independent car companies without a new vertical integration strategy. The strategy was started about a decade ago, it's called Baustein. That's really all I know. They are basically standardizing parts across the model range so they can continue producing parts in house without suffering severe inefficiency. The MQB platform is part of this strategy.

hawkdriver · Nov 28, 2012

Well I called this in an older thread about the changes coming to GP, I didn't name the company and had no idea it would be Suzuki, but I said one of the big four wasn't going to make it. I thought it would be worst and it probably will get worst before we pull out of this mess.

I'm certainly not a liberal and I don't have a problem with people "negotiating" their wage, but the northern unions will continue to decline in employment because of the way they operate. They work much better here in the south in right to work states where they have to really negotiate because they feel the pressure of competition and they have a purpose beyond just controlling the labor like up north. The sad thing is that they always vote democrat even when it isn't in the best interest of labor, they could be so much more powerful if they broke free and did what was best for themselves. The ones who vote themselves right out of their own jobs don't make sense to me, but maybe the next couple of years will give them a wake up call.

Dr No · Nov 28, 2012

mylexicon said:
VW added over 100,000 employees in FY 2011 to eclipse 500,000 employees, and they have supposedly added another 50,000 YTD 2012. That's why the number is significantly different that your older data.

VW have always had more vertical integration b/c they produce transmissions and such in-house, but it was impossible to keep this arrangement running for 5-6 independent car companies without a new vertical integration strategy. The strategy was started about a decade ago, it's called Baustein. That's really all I know. They are basically standardizing parts across the model range so they can continue producing parts in house without suffering severe inefficiency. The MQB platform is part of this strategy.

Again, interesting. I know they've been pouring plants into China. But don't know what employee numbers added to Tianjin - last time I was there, all they produced was old VW Passats...

Many companies have in-house transmission production, and even VW uses a lot of ZF trans. It'd be interesting to understand what %age is in vs out-sourced. (If you have this on hand, let me know. If you don't, now worries. It's diverting but not important.

I've seen some of the plan they have with the MQB. It appears convincing, but on the other hand, until I've seen more detail, I remain a bit skeptical. It seems the latest interpretation of the"World Car" platform. Most of which end up anything but. One region just MUST change the windscreen base hardpoint, and it goes out the window. This is where, perhaps, effective central control, rather than vertical integration will benefit them.

dwoodhouse · Nov 30, 2012

Jumkie said:
Why are executives never blamed when their companies fail? Oh yeah, because Republicans in this country protect their own at all cost.

Its laughable to even suggest its the unions fault as Pov tries to make the case. These wages and benefit packages are negotiated, that is NEGOTIATED! Agreements have to be made. Its not like the executives are giving back their yachts when there is a bad quarter, ...., quite the opposite happens, they give themselves bonuses. These are the people that Pov, a middle class guy himself, relates with. In his mind, he is shackled by fair wages and prefers any profits to go straight up. And when the companies fail due to mismanagement, well, its the workers fault not the executives who undoubtedly walk away with Caymen accounts.

In Australia, our unions buy their top officials hookers and houses out of union monies. Oh, and if you sleep with one of those corrupt officials, you get to be prime minister.

michaelm · Nov 30, 2012

woody996 said:
In Australia, our unions buy their top officials hookers and houses out of union monies. Oh, and if you sleep with one of those corrupt officials, you get to be prime minister.

Yes , and Julie Bishop was just doing her job advising James Hardie how to avoid responsibility for their employees, and had no idea what they would do with her advice.

Despite the politics of my youth (my time at the University of Sydney was largely contemporaneous with Tony Abbott's, with whom I did not agree then and don't now) I actually agree that a lot of what unions do now is counterproductive for the actual workers let alone the nation, and caters mainly to the ambitions of the union officials, financial and otherwise, but it is still small beer compared to some of the things the captains of industry get away with.

dwoodhouse · Nov 30, 2012

michaelm said:
Yes , and Julie Bishop was just doing her job advising James Hardie how to avoid responsibility for their employees, and had no idea what they would do with her advice.

Despite the politics of my youth I think a lot of what unions do now is counterproductive for the actual workers let alone the nation, and caters mainly to the ambitions of the union officials, financial and otherwise, but it is still small beer compared to some of the things the captains of industry get away with.

Julie Bishop didn't commit a crime. Can't say the same about the PM. I'm also yet to hear the PM tell the truth.

While I do think there was a place for unions, they are pretty destructive and ignorant these days. They are in the process of pushing as many Australian jobs overseas as they can by holding companies to ransom. The corporate blackmail they get away with and the contempt of court orders that don't result in anyone getting locked up is ridiculous. They haven't figured out that if companies don't do well, they don't employ anyone.

michaelm · Nov 30, 2012

woody996 said:
Julie Bishop didn't commit a crime. Can't say the same about the PM. I'm also yet to hear the PM tell the truth.

While I do think there was a place for unions, they are pretty destructive and ignorant these days. They are in the process of pushing as many Australian jobs overseas as they can by holding companies to ransom. The corporate blackmail they get away with and the contempt of court orders that don't result in anyone getting locked up is ridiculous. They haven't figured out that if companies don't do well, they don't employ anyone.

Since the carbon tax, right or wrong, is substantively the same policy the Coalition ( a Liberal/National Coalition apparently being different than a Labor/Greens Coalition, much as I despise the Greens btw) took to the 2007 election, when were the Coalition lying, then or now?

dwoodhouse · Nov 30, 2012

michaelm said:
Since the carbon tax, right or wrong, is substantively the same policy the Coalition ( a Liberal/National Coalition apparently being different than a Labor/Greens Coalition, much as I despise the Greens btw) took to the 2007 election, when were the Coalition lying, then or now?

Different leaders have different views within the same party. Look at Malcom Turnbull's views. He was effectively a Labor man.

I wouldn't have such an issue with labor if they didn't have their extreme left and if they weren't tied to so much corruption, bullying and harassment as is carried on by the unions.

If unions want respect, their leaders should be subject to the same laws and scruitiny as company directors. They should also be prevented in engaging in economic blackmail. The Qantas episode is the perfect example of that. They create an expensive IR system which is unsustainable and then cry when jobs move overseas.

I have clients who get regular threats from union dicks and they already pay their staff more than they are required to and provide better working conditions. Power corrupts (on both sides). The issue is that on the union side, there is no one checking up on them and they seem to be able to ignore court orders.

barbedwirebiker · Nov 30, 2012

BJ.C · Nov 30, 2012

hawkdriver said:
Well I called this in an older thread about the changes coming to GP, I didn't name the company and had no idea it would be Suzuki, but I said one of the big four wasn't going to make it. I thought it would be worst and it probably will get worst before we pull out of this mess.

I'm certainly not a liberal and I don't have a problem with people "negotiating" their wage, but the northern unions will continue to decline in employment because of the way they operate. They work much better here in the south in right to work states where they have to really negotiate because they feel the pressure of competition and they have a purpose beyond just controlling the labor like up north. The sad thing is that they always vote democrat even when it isn't in the best interest of labor, they could be so much more powerful if they broke free and did what was best for themselves. The ones who vote themselves right out of their own jobs don't make sense to me, but maybe the next couple of years will give them a wake up call.

Suzuki haven't gone broke. Suzuki America has filed Chapter 11. They are a small part of Suzuki worldwide.

They have, IMHO, ...... up trying to sell Grand Vitara's in the US. Do you know anyone that wants one? They took a great car (Vitara) and turned it into a fat pig electronic nightmare that couldn't 4WD to save its' life.

The new Toyota Rush is where Suzuki should have gone - .... the Grand Vitara

michaelm · Nov 30, 2012

woody996 said:
Different leaders have different views within the same party. Look at Malcom Turnbull's views. He was effectively a Labor man.

I wouldn't have such an issue with labor if they didn't have their extreme left and if they weren't tied to so much corruption, bullying and harassment as is carried on by the unions.

If unions want respect, their leaders should be subject to the same laws and scruitiny as company directors. They should also be prevented in engaging in economic blackmail. The Qantas episode is the perfect example of that. They create an expensive IR system which is unsustainable and then cry when jobs move overseas.

I have clients who get regular threats from union dicks and they already pay their staff more than they are required to and provide better working conditions. Power corrupts (on both sides). The issue is that on the union side, there is no one checking up on them and they seem to be able to ignore court orders.

I think the leader in 2007 was a bloke called John Howard, not noted for his tendencies towards Labor, with another bloke called Tony Abbott among the senior cabinet members.

I don't necessarily disagree with you about unions, except that the right wing (in union terms) ones seem to be the most corrupt, as with the right wing of the Labor party. The current adverse changes in industrial relations in australia though imo are a direct reaction to John Howard's Workchoices, which was also politically/ideologically motivated; I know for a fact that the head of the Chamber of Commerce at the time described it as a solution in search of a problem. This has led to reforms made by the likes of Hawke and Keating which even the Liberals have said recently were sensible being rolled back. You are a smart guy, surely you don't think only one side engages in politics.

I also don't agree with political debate in australia being led by shock jocks (Michael Smith ex 2UE is mainly leading this Gillard stuff) and the murdoch press, all the while pointing to bias in others with them apparently having no biases or agendas of their own, and the Murdoch press in Australia where they originated apparently being completely ethical as opposed to their offshoots under the same management overseas.

BJ.C · Nov 30, 2012

mylexicon said:
The vessel to achieve Subprime Utopia was a government program used to combat stagflation, an economic situation our country had not known since the early 1980s. ....... re-purposed the CRA as an anti-racism bill, and since then, the CRA has been completely uncontrollable and irreparable. If you touch it, you're racist.

We didn't get robbed. We reaped what we sowed.

Defaulting mortgage holders subject to the CRA were less than 1% of the problem. The 'crisis' came about because of billions in toxic debt wrapped up in fraudulent AAA+ rating and sold as the perfect medium-term investment.

When the doubt started to hit, those debts were dumped faster than the ribbon-wrapped turd they resembled.

The run caused a domino effect of failing financial institutions.

Blaming individuals for their mortgages is a cop-out. Plenty has been written detailing the cause and chain-reaction of the 2008 financial collapse. to continue to blame CRA and mortgage holders is blinkered and disingenuous.

mylexicon · Nov 30, 2012

BJ.C said:
Defaulting mortgage holders subject to the CRA were less than 1% of the problem. The 'crisis' came about because of billions in toxic debt wrapped up in fraudulent AAA+ rating and sold as the perfect medium-term investment.

You know why the government looked the other way as S&P and Moody's slapped AAA+ ratings on toxic mortgage bundles? First, politicians are narcissists who want to believe that their policies and fiscal management warrant AAA+ ratings. Second, the sale of those toxic mortgage bundles in the secondary market generated the liquidity necessary to keep CRA funded. The mortgage bundles and credit derivatives were the investment instruments that kept the gears of commerce well lubricated. Since those gears were loosely working to achieve a political objective (home ownership), regulators looked the other way.

Without the fake AAA+ ratings, which regulators encouraged, and the abuse of hedging strategies (swaps, bundles, etc), companies like Countrywide would never have been able to earn money by issuing toxic jumbo loans. They would never have found a buyer for their junk assets.

We reaped what we sowed b/c citizens said they were entitled to below market interest rates and high loan volumes. The unintended consequences were quite dire. The world is slowly learning that whenever an American, no matter how downtrodden, says 'I deserve to have.....', it's time to head to the nearest fallout shelter. Our socialist policy-makers are not like the relatively responsible technocrats in other social democracies. They will sacrifice a hundred herds of sacred cows to make possible the impossible, and when the scheme falls apart, they will always find someone/something to scapegoat.

mylexicon · Nov 30, 2012

BJ.C said:
Suzuki haven't gone broke. Suzuki America has filed Chapter 11. They are a small part of Suzuki worldwide.

They have, IMHO, ...... up trying to sell Grand Vitara's in the US. Do you know anyone that wants one? They took a great car (Vitara) and turned it into a fat pig electronic nightmare that couldn't 4WD to save its' life.

The new Toyota Rush is where Suzuki should have gone - .... the Grand Vitara

I think the real tragedy is that Suzuki is one of the foremost authorities on kei cars. We have a demographic of people aged 16-24 who don't buy cars and who barely drive for socio-economic reasons. Seems like the perfect marriage. A segment of disenfranchised motorists, and a car company with nothing to lose in the American market. If Toyota can bring the iQ to market via Scion, Suzuki could have tried something, even with the left/right hand drive differences.

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