Stoner's mental weakness

GatorDuc said:

This quote, and the quotes that prompted it raise a question in my mind. Levi and I were discussing it over the phone and I'd like to hear more Slider's opinions. I hope I can come across as not biased, because I love Nicky and really admire Stoner's talent. Nothing would make me happier than to see Stoner race and win. My question is this.......which is the more professional race attitude? The one that pushes the envelope of a bike that one knows is "weak in the front end" and crashes in doing so, or is it more professional to realize your machine's limitations and race and score points without busting the envelope and throwing it into the gravel? I'm not trying to be an instigator, I'm just asking for objective opinions.

A few thoughts enter my mind as I deliberate on this. Nobody can deny Casey's raw talent as a motorcycle rider, but were talking about motorcycle racing, isn't the better racer one that shows some restraint? (a fan wants to see a rider that is hanging off that screaming bike but what does a race owner want?) Or, is Nicky just not talented enough to explore the edge of the performance envelope, or is he? I've always liked Nicky for his determination and pluck, but deep down did not think that he really had the talent to be a consistent race winner (last year's sentiments). His displays lately however, have gotten me to think that he does have the talent to race (and hopefully win) and develop a great racing machine (maybe not as exciting to watch race but the guy of more value in your racing paddock as an owner/manufacturer.



I'm beginning to ramble and mix thoughts but I think you get the idea of my question, would like to hear your thoughtful opinions........

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Hey Gator, what’s up bro. Levi and I had a similar conversation. Seems we needed to verbalize our frustrations about Stoner and make some kinda sense out of it, eh (knowing you guys admire Casey, as I do). I think we’ve lost CKid though, hahaha, maybe it was hangover from the night before that prompted his text to me about poor Casey, as he put it: “....’em he’s a .....!” Hahahaha. Anyway, yeah good question about pushing the front end in regard to “professionalism” though I don't think I can answer it the way its posed. I’ll start with “I don’t know bro.” (Same thing I told Levi), and some rambling to make myself sound like I could figure it out, but in the end, I told him, “I just think Casey needs a big hug.” Hahaha



But after watching the race a few more times and thinking about it, I’ll offer my thoughts: Keep in mind, it’s dramatically a new bike this year, and as much as the magnitude of the change has effected Nicky positively, it not a stretch to consider that its effected Stoner in an opposite way. (Though despite yesterday’s crash, I still think it too early to tell). Another poster mentioned this (Son of Doohan). I for one never have doubted Nicky’s talent (yes very bias) as I believe if you gave Nicky a conventional top tier bike like Yamaha/Honda with the support offered to Lorenzo, Rossi, Pedro, and I’d be willing to wager 6 months salary (I know, chump change) you’d see him battling with the “aliens”. I know the last few years haven’t looked like it, but I would be willing to back up the bias with much detailed explanation to address his lack of performance since his 06 title. So your question also begs the question, did Nicky suddenly become more “professional”? (Not quite the perfect comparison, I concede, but I think you might get what I’m trying to say.) That is, can we say that Stoner’s crashes are better explained through some tangible mechanical change to the bike (as a system) rather than some intangible reason like “professionalism”? Honest question.



Stoner is mind-boggling fast, even Ben Spies said he understands Rossi’s speed, but when he observes Stoner, it’s still a mystery to him (amazing right?). Most of the time he’s been with Duc, he’s been the fastest man at the event. But several times, and for us who admire the man a bit wearisome, he hasn’t come out on top; frustrating yes. If I had to question something about his riding abilities, maybe I’d go with him needing to fine-tune his ‘racecraft’ (and maybe at that). Perspective: Qatar was the first time Stoner rode the new bike in a ‘race setting’ (sure he tested & practiced with it, but I think most of us will agree a race is infinitely a different animal).



So here is partly my answer to your genuine question regarding professionalism vs crashes: I don't think its some lack of professionalism (or mental strength, etc.) in my head-scratching opinion. (Like I said, I don't think I can totally answer your question within the conditions you pose, certainly for an owner, finishing a race is more valuable than crashing, but if risking the very limit that may result in the owner winning a championship then it might change the parameter of risk taking). Consider that not all warnings to limits are created equal either; the Duc is a very unique bike, as three world champs have not cracked its enigmatic code! Melandri said the bike felt like riding on water & Nicky said while looking at himself on TV, its not as it appear, the bike is unpredictable (not exactly a bike you would think gave most humans ample warning it had reached it critical mass, eh.) Stoner learned to ride it though, and partly due to his unique style; however, the new bike (as somebody described) has been Japanese-ized) that is to say, behaves more like a conventional Honda/Yamaha. Might explain why Nicky is getting along with the bike much better, where as this perhaps has been detrimental in regards to Stoner’s style of riding. Testing and practice is measured, but the sensations of a race, including the duress and adrenaline and heat of competition perhaps converge and conspire for Stoner to return to the riding style where he had previously been so successful on the screamer but detrimental on the big bang (not far fetched). In his post race comments (crash.net) Stoner said they need to sort out this issue, and if that means having to “change his riding style” he’ll do it. Now that sounds professional and I’ll add humble. I think had he been stubborn and said something like, ‘they’ need to figure the mechanical issues out as oppose to including himself a part of the problem/solution, then I’d go with unprofessional and add arrogant. I think we spectator make the mistake in thinking that these crashes and lack of performance are switches that these guys can and should turn on and off at will, but I think the difference between a tenth here and there is the limit difference of a crash and a victory. These fallible boys (Casey is still very young) are on the very physical limits of rubber, metal, and the programmer’s codes during a race (all of which are not equally created), I think of it as playing catch with nitroglycerin, one tiny, itsy bitsy small false move and you're toast.



my 2 cents for now

Jumkie said:

Hey Gator, what’s up bro. Levi and I had a similar conversation. Seems we needed to verbalize our frustrations about Stoner and make some kinda sense out of it, eh (knowing you guys admire guy, as I do). I think we’ve lost CKid though, hahaha, maybe it was hangover from the night before that prompted his text to me about poor Casey, as he put it: “....’em he’s a .....!” Hahahaha. Anyway, yeah good question about pushing the front end in regard to “professionalism”. I’ll start with “I don’t know bro.” (Same thing I told Levi), and some rambling to make myself sound like I could figure it out, but in the end, I told him, “I just think Casey needs a big hug.” Hahaha



But after watching the race a few more times and thinking about it, I’ll offer my thoughts: Keep in mind, it’s dramatically a new bike this year, and as much as the magnitude of the change has effected Nicky positively, it not a stretch to consider that its effected Stoner in an opposite way. (Though despite yesterday’s crash, I still think it too early to tell). Another poster mentioned this (Son of Doohan). I for one never have doubted Nicky’s talent (yes very bias) as I believe if you gave Nicky a conventional top tear bike like Yamaha/Honda with the support offered to Lorenzo, Rossi, Pedro, and I’d be willing to wager 6 months salary (I know, chump change) you’d see him battling with the “aliens”. I know the last few years haven’t looked like it, but I would be willing to back up the bias with much detailed explanation to address his lack of performance since his 06 title. So your question also begs the question, did Nicky suddenly become more “professional”? (Not quite the perfect comparison, I concede, but I think you might get what I’m trying to say.) That is, can we say that Stoner’s crashes are better explained through some tangible mechanical change to the bike (as a system) rather than some intangible reason like “professionalism” or as my hermano CK has questioned, “mental weakness”? Honest question.



Stoner is mind-boggling fast, even Ben Spies said he understands Rossi’s speed, but when he observes Stoner, it’s still a mystery to him (amazing right?). Most of the time he’s been with Duc, he’s been the fastest man at the event. But several times, and for us who admire the man a bit wearisome, he hasn’t come out on top; frustrating yes. If I had to question something about his riding abilities, maybe I’d go with him needing to fine-tune his ‘racecraft’ (and maybe at that). Perspective: Qatar was the first time Stoner rode the new bike in a ‘race setting’ (sure he tested & practiced with it, but I think most of us will agree a race is infinitely a different animal). He again crashed the 3rd time he’s ridden the bike under race duress. So here is partly my explanation for the crashes, certainly NOT some lack of mental strength. The Duc is a very unique bike, as three world champs have not cracked it enigmatic code! Stoner learned to ride it though, and partly due to his unique style; however, the new bike (as somebody described) has been Japanese-ized) that is to say, behaves more like a conventional Honda/Yamaha. Might explain why Nicky is getting along with the bike much better, where as this perhaps has been detrimental in regards to Stoner’s style of riding. Testing and practice is measured, but the sensations of a race, including the duress and adrenaline and heat of competition perhaps converge and conspire for Stoner to return to the riding style where he had previously been so successful on the screamer but detrimental on the big bang (not far fetched). In his post race comments (crash.net) Stoner said they need to sort out this issue, and if that means having to “change his riding style” he’ll do it. Now that sounds professional and I’ll add humble. I think had he been stubborn and said something like, ‘they’ need to figure the mechanical issues out as oppose to including himself a part of the problem/solution, then I’d go with unprofessional and add arrogant. I think we spectator make the mistake in thinking that these crashes and lack of performance are switches that these guys can and should turn on and off at will, but I think the difference between a tenth here and there is the limit difference of a crash and a victory. These fallible boys (Casey is still very young) are on the very physical limits of rubber, metal, and the programmer’s codes during a race (all of which are not equally created), I think of it as playing catch with nitroglycerin, one tiny, itsy bitsy small false move and you're toast.



my 2 cents for now

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...., were back to the 8000 word essays again.

Funny how not so long ago some stoner fans claimed if Rossi was go great he would go to another make or even a sat team. Now stoner the new doohan can't even adapt to this years bike cos its big bang. Well he wasn't 07 quality last year and that was a screamer. As for Lorenzo my friend, you know as well as i do his crashes were crappy french rubber, nothing to do with mental weakness. To prove this you only have to look how fast he went the following race

chopperman said:

...., were back to the 8000 word essays again.



...

As for Lorenzo my friend, you know as well as i do his crashes were crappy french rubber, nothing to do with mental weakness. To prove this you only have to look how fast he went the following race

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Then he might have been too weak mentally to adapt to the Michelin. Hey, aren't you suppose to be watching the match on TV and not posting around here?

The California Kid said:

ohh yeah Jumks maybe you should be the one to give him the hug because I think he needs a ..... slap rather than a hug to wake up

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Outch! You're a bad man, a very bad man.

Jumkie said:

Then he might have been too weak mentally to adapt to the Michelin.

Hey, aren't you suppose to be watching the match on TV and not posting around here?

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It's over now and you lost 3..1

The California Kid said:

This crashing resurgence is just the latest of his mental weakness. It all started with the 3 race sit out for no good reason. When I first heard he was going to sit out 3 races, i was seriously concerned because none of these boys ever sit out races unless something is seriously wrong with them. I really didn't hear any body other than Schwantz publicly bad mouth Casey for this, but i could imagine what the talk in the paddock was amongst the other riders and teams must have been like. Look at Alvaro Bautista he broke his Collar bone and still went out there and tried to race, after an ugly highside on which he landed on the same shoulder he decided to sit out, which is perfectly understandable. He earned my respect just by going out there with a broken collar bone.

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Disagree.



With a broken collar bone, you can jack up on pain killers, and combined with a healthy shot of testosterone and adrenaline coursing through your veins go out on Sunday and race. Off the top of my head Bayliss did it at Brands some years ago, and was it last year Haga did the same at Miller. There's no quick fix for the effects of a lactose intolerance.



So Casey sat it out for three races, came back, and bar the stupid .... up at Valencia which he threw away on on the warm up lap...performed flawlessly. You simply don't do that if you have a mental weakness. Casey pushes very hard - that's how he races, that's all he knows, and he rarely rides for points - perhaps there's the mental weakness you are desperate to ascribe to him. My contention is that, very simply he's overriding the new big bang GP10 - Jumkie's right.



By sitting out three races last year Casey invited the derision of his detractors, the ire of his sponsors and the criticism of his peers.



Would Schwantz have done the same? - hell no, but with the benefit of hindsight, perhaps that was his weakness.

Arrabbiata1 said:

Disagree.



With a broken collar bone, you can jack up on pain killers, and combined with a healthy shot of testosterone and adrenaline coursing through your veins go out on Sunday and race. Off the top of my head Bayliss did it at Brands some years ago, and was it last year Haga did the same at Miller. There's no quick fix for the effects of a lactose intolerance.



So Casey sat it out for three races, came back, and bar the stupid .... up at Valencia which he threw away on on the warm up lap...performed flawlessly. You simply don't do that if you have a mental weakness. Casey pushes very hard - that's how he races, that's all he knows, and he rarely rides for points - perhaps there's the mental weakness you are desperate to ascribe to him. My contention is that, very simply he's overriding the new big bang GP10 - Jumkie's right.



By sitting out three races last year Casey invited the derision of his detractors, the ire of his sponsors and the criticism of his peers.



Would Schwantz have done the same? - hell no, but with the benefit of hindsight, perhaps that was his weakness.

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Wow, with that humbling endorsement, anybody else what to say Casey is weak? C'mon, I double dog dare ya.



Don't disagree too much Arrabi, we might be sitting across from CK having tequila shot at Laguna if you finally make the trip over brotha.



Hey CK, maybe Nicky is already giving Casey a hug bro. Check this out.

“I feel sorry for Casey today and his side of the garage because I see how hard they work, he is an unbelievably fast rider and he'll be feeling disappointed right now, but you can be sure he will bounce back, he is very strong,” said Hayden. “It's a long season so hopefully we can both have something to smile about next time.” NH

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We should follow Nicky's lead and not kick the man when he's down. XOXOXO

The California Kid said:

This crashing resurgence is just the latest of his mental weakness. It all started with the 3 race sit out for no good reason. When I first heard he was going to sit out 3 races, i was seriously concerned because none of these boys ever sit out races unless something is seriously wrong with them. I really didn't hear any body other than Schwantz publicly bad mouth Casey for this, but i could imagine what the talk in the paddock was amongst the other riders and teams must have been like. Look at Alvaro Bautista he broke his Collar bone and still went out there and tried to race, after an ugly highside on which he landed on the same shoulder he decided to sit out, which is perfectly understandable. He earned my respect just by going out there with a broken collar bone.

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Sorry Kid but this is just lazy speculation. There's no evidence to support such a statement. Seems more likely that Stoner has

yet to adapt his set-up so that it works with the new engine and his riding style. It's taken more than an entire season for Hayden

to sort the idiosyncratic Ducati to the point where it's rideable at the front. So maybe it'll take Stoner a few races to make the

latest Ducacti work right for him.



I could "Imagine" anything - but that's even weaker than reasoned speculation.



And what the .... has Bautista got to do with anything??? Where's the correlation between willingness to ride in pain

(for all the good it did him) and Stoner losing the front end? One thing has no relationship to the other.

Keshav said:

Sorry Kid but this is just lazy speculation. There's no evidence to support such a statement. Seems more likely that Stoner has

yet to adapt his set-up so that it works with the new engine and his riding style. It's taken more than an entire season for Hayden

to sort the idiosyncratic Ducati to the point where it's rideable at the front. So maybe it'll take Stoner a few races to make the

latest Ducacti work right for him.



I could "Imagine" anything - but that's even weaker than reasoned speculation.



And what the .... has Bautista got to do with anything??? Where's the correlation between willingness to ride in pain

(for all the good it did him) and Stoner losing the front end? One thing has no relationship to the other.

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They are both fragile, duh. One mentally one physically. One looks like a 12 year old on acts like a 12 year old.

GatorDuc said:

This quote, and the quotes that prompted it raise a question in my mind. Levi and I were discussing it over the phone and I'd like to hear more Slider's opinions. I hope I can come across as not biased, because I love Nicky and really admire Stoner's talent. Nothing would make me happier than to see Stoner race and win. My question is this.......which is the more professional race attitude? The one that pushes the envelope of a bike that one knows is "weak in the front end" and crashes in doing so, or is it more professional to realize your machine's limitations and race and score points without busting the envelope and throwing it into the gravel? I'm not trying to be an instigator, I'm just asking for objective opinions.

A few thoughts enter my mind as I deliberate on this. Nobody can deny Casey's raw talent as a motorcycle rider, but were talking about motorcycle racing, isn't the better racer one that shows some restraint? (a fan wants to see a rider that is hanging off that screaming bike but what does a race owner want?) Or, is Nicky just not talented enough to explore the edge of the performance envelope, or is he? I've always liked Nicky for his determination and pluck, but deep down did not think that he really had the talent to be a consistent race winner (last year's sentiments). His displays lately however, have gotten me to think that he does have the talent to race (and hopefully win) and develop a great racing machine (maybe not as exciting to watch race but the guy of more value in your racing paddock as an owner/manufacturer.



I'm beginning to ramble and mix thoughts but I think you get the idea of my question, would like to hear your thoughtful opinions........

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Here are my thoughts:



1. The front tire is limiting performance. MotoGP is a monotire and B-stone can't develop new tires (Dorna probably won't let them even if they wanted to) so all of the teams are more or less on the limit of what the front tire can handle. The only way to improve the performance of the front tire is to get weight over the rear wheel, but if you transfer too much to the rear, you lose feel in the front and you lose performance b/c the tire never reaches operating temperature.



2. It's not a matter of Nick's or Casey's riding style, it is a matter of their setup. Nick has always been hypersensitive to front end feel so I think he is riding a more conservative setup that is reminiscent of his Honda setup. Casey runs the true Ducati/Bridgestone setup which has a significant rearward weight bias. Stoner generates heat in the front by throwing the bike into the corners at obscene speeds.



3. Casey's problems are Ducati's fault. When they changed the firing order, they upset Casey's winning form by altering grip at the rear wheel. The subsequent developments to alter the design and setup of the bike have actually created a situation where it is impossible for the Ducati to be ridden properly. If Stoner puts more weight over the front tire to improve feedback he won't reach maximum performance. If he continues to ride with his old settings, he will continue to throw the bike down the road as he struggles to get temperature into the tire and feel from the front end.



I actually believe that it is borderline impossible for the GP10 to be ridden to victory from a standing start b/c the current design of the bike is incompatible with the demands of the tires. This also happened at the beginning of 2008. In 2010 we know that a rules change (6 engines for 18 races) has caused Ducati's/Stoner's problems. In 2008, Ducati just forgot how to build a bike with front end feel.

J4rn0 said:

Yup, he doesn't crash, but then he doesn't go beyond fourth place either.

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neither does Casey. DNF, 5th, DNF. maybe there is something to this whole not crashing thing.

chopperman said:

It's over now and you lost 3..1

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Silly Mexican Soccer Team… 3 – 1, and the only one goal was kind of a: “Please, please, please, hope the ball gets in”. I wish we wan lots of games in this World Cup, but I am not betting any money on it!

The California Kid said:

To my Knowledge Lactose intolerance is not a life threatening or painful disease. isn't it when you .... your pants from eating cheese or drinking milk. To say its not too Hard to go out there with a broken bone and race on a motorcycle after a few pain killers is fucken enlightening. If you ask me id rather .... my pants.

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Good .... CK.

I think Lex has pretty much summed it up. The perfect storm of Ducati and Stoner is fading away. He won his championship in a transition year where everyone else was developing the 800's. He achieved the perfect symbiosis with the Gp9 and with the changing of the GP10 that relationship has changed. He used to be red helmets in every session. We havn't seen that at all this year. The mother ship has revoked his alien status and he is mortal once again. He's talented enough to be fast but I don't think you will ever see him dominate again.

A true champion realizes that opportunities to be in a position to win a championship might never come again. This is a fatal flaw you see in a lot of young athletes. I don't believe that Stoner was necessarily weak minded last year when he was on his gas x vacation I just think his head was too full of lofty notions about how long his run of dominance might run.

I just wish he would stop crashing because twice now this year I almost had a friggin heart attack seeing a red bike rolling in the dirt. This is how it sounded from my house. .... .... .... .... .... .... ...., is it? is it? is it? ohhhhhh ...., YES! baha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha what a dumb ..... Phew

Arrabbiata1 said:

and bar the stupid .... up at Valencia which he threw away on on the warm up lap...performed flawlessly.

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Yeah, Much was made of Stoner's fall at Valencia, oh man, fans & media had a hay day. And why not, right, after all, how rediculious for the "pole setter" to go down in such spectacular fashion, surely that rider must be either mentally weak, careless, surely something lacking if we're gonna be harsh critics. Right? (sarcasm for effect, but attempting to be witty). Uhm surely this is an epic display of something lacking so did the Stoner detractors tell us. Uhm, lets me see, has this ever happened before? Uhm thinking...



Thinking... Thinking...



Oh yeah, it happened last year at Mugello! That's right, the "pole setter" crashed during the sighting lap.How stupid is that? Now, who was it? Ah, thinking...



Thinking... Thinking...



Oh yeah: It was Lorenzo! Hahaha. Yeah boys and girls, u probably dont remember since of course he wasnt crucified like Stoner for crashing 'before' the race. Even though at the time Lorenzo was in a tight championship battle and even leading Rossi in points. Surely this was a greater lapse of mental toughness than Stoner's bin at season end after the title had long been decided! The fact that Lorenzo was able to join the race at all stupid good luck that the handle bars did not break. But lets see, uhm, who won that race anyway? Do u remember? Thinking...



Thinking... Thinking...



Oh yeah, "weak minded" Casey Stoner!



Bahahaha, ah, the irony.



(I'll hav u know that i picked up CK today for late lunch and talked about Casey's mental state. CK basically broke it down to me this way, he said, any guy who is a MotoGP champ with roackstar status and gets married, whereby foregoing ample amounts of umbrella girl ..... is simple mentally handicapped. Frankly, i didnt have a comback.)

Keshav said:

Sorry Kid but this is just lazy speculation. There's no evidence to support such a statement. Seems more likely that Stoner has

yet to adapt his set-up so that it works with the new engine and his riding style. It's taken more than an entire season for Hayden

to sort the idiosyncratic Ducati to the point where it's rideable at the front. So maybe it'll take Stoner a few races to make the

latest Ducacti work right for him.



I could "Imagine" anything - but that's even weaker than reasoned speculation.



And what the .... has Bautista got to do with anything??? Where's the correlation between willingness to ride in pain

(for all the good it did him) and Stoner losing the front end? One thing has no relationship to the other.

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Its called 'Jumping on the bandwagon'

The California Kid said:

To my Knowledge Lactose intolerance is not a life threatening or painful disease. isn't it when you .... your pants from eating cheese or drinking milk. To say its not too Hard to go out there with a broken bone and race on a motorcycle after a few pain killers is fucken enlightening. If you ask me id rather .... my pants. Troy Bayliss was and is an Animal! that man would probably would go racing after a triple by pass surgery. He also lost a testicle and finger and raced the next week but im sure if he would have drank some milk he would have gone fishing instead. After having lunch with my good friend Jumkie today he pointed out that the effects of Lactose intolerance affect a racer more than broken bones. I want to believe him! I believe everyone has gone to work at one point in there life feeling like crap, but how many have gone with broken bones? and Schwantz is a Legend He banged it out with the best of them on .... bike and maybe if he would have been a little more sensitive he would have been a multiple champ but what some people look at as stupidity others look at as Dignity(moto Gp racer). Please keep in my mind that I myself am in no way shape or form close to as Ballsy as Casey. Im only comparing him to his Fellow Moto Gp riders and those that came Before him. Don't Worry Arrabb ill still have some shots with you!



And Keshav What do you mean Bautista had nothing to do with it! like i said before you have to have a good set of balls to jump on that bike as it is, and let alone jump on it with a broken collar bone.

too bad Bayliss Doohan or Schwantz never had Lactose problems maybe then we could have had some more answers!!





GatorDuc please give us some info!!!!!!!

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First, Thanks to Jum and MyLex for giving some good feedback on my previous musings.....



CK, I have to admit, I didn't follow any MotoGP stuff much in the off season so the "Lactose Intolerance given as reason for Casey Stoners Woes last year" came as a recent surprise. At first, I thought someone was joking, seriously. I thought, "that's the lamest ....... excuse I've heard in a long time". However, I'm humbled a lot by what I don't understand in medicine (and I like Casey and want to believe he's not a feeble minded emo-.....) so I did some research to see if Lactose intolerance could be the cause of a Chronic Fatigue like illness. Sure-.......-enough there's real literature connecting the two.



Here's a case history published in The Lancet.(the UK's New England Journal of Medicine) (April 15, 2000)



The patient was a 59-year old man with a 26-year history of fatigue, severe muscle pain, headache, rapid heartbeat and hypertension, which began after staying at a dairy farmhouse. He ate a typical Western diet including dairy. His physician gave him a high dose of lactose and tested his breath hydrogen. Normal breath hydrogen is more than 20 ppm; his was 273 ppm after three hours, and he had chronic fatigue symptoms. After all dairy was eliminated, his symptoms were either dramatically reduced or disappeared entirely.



Matthews, S.B. and A.K. Campbell. "When Sugar Is Not So Sweet," The Lancet, vol. 355, April 15, 2000.



And lactose intolerance often does not present until your mid twenties, our production of the enzyme that breaks down lactose slows down as we age. Now I'm not saying I completely endorse it as the sole reason for his "mystery illness", but the more I researched it and found more cases of severe fatigue being associated with lactose intolerance I became more accepting of it.....and, going back to the beginning of Stoner's illness I did recall diarrhea, cramping and mild anemia being mentioned as some presenting symptoms of his initial fatigue. Back then, I was guessing that it was a virally induced gut inflammation made worse by his mental ruminations. Well after researching more, I would have to agree that it's possible for subtle or occult lactose intolerance to lead to chronic gut inflammation, diarrhea, malabsorbtion and thus severe fatigue; BUT, I do think the physical and mental pressure of extreme competition exacerbate such symptoms. So in short, lactose intolerance doesn't only present as frequent bloating, farting and often embarrassing hershey squirt "sharting".

Now, if you asked me which would I rather race a motorcyle with, a broken bone, or lactose intolerance I would initially have said "that's easy I'd take lactose intolerance". But after doing research and learning that lactose intolerance can often present as much worse than bloating, farting, and diarrhea I'd say "let me think about this". Or let me propose it to you this way CK. Try to remember the morning after your worst hangover, you know, where you were still puking up undigested tequila and tacos, and then your bowels start nudging you to sit on the toilet.....now you start to spray undigested tequila and tacos from your .........now after about an hour, when your good and dehydrated, ride a 200hp motorcycle in the heat, for an hour at the absolute limit of your ability. Would you rather do that or ride a motorcyle with a broken collar bone or wrist bone? You gotta admit that scenario makes you think about it a little differently. Right? Now CK, I consider you one of my good friends so I'm not ranting that one is easier to "deal with" than the other, and I don't mean to .... on your post from my high horse (and you know my faith in Casey is slipping slightly). I'm just saying that as crazy as it sounds, lactose intolerance can be worse than you think (and I just recently learned that myself which is embarrassing for me to admit ).

GatorDuc said:

First, Thanks to Jum and MyLex for giving some good feedback on my previous musings.....



CK, I have to admit, I didn't follow any MotoGP stuff much in the off season so the "Lactose Intolerance given as reason for Casey Stoners Woes last year" came as a recent surprise. At first, I thought someone was joking, seriously. I thought, "that's the lamest ....... excuse I've heard in a long time". However, I'm humbled a lot by what I don't understand in medicine (and I like Casey and want to believe he's not a feeble minded emo-.....) so I did some research to see if Lactose intolerance could be the cause of a Chronic Fatigue like illness. Sure-.......-enough there's real literature connecting the two.

Here's a case history published in The Lancet.(the UK's New England Journal of Medicine) (April 15, 2000)



The patient was a 59-year old man with a 26-year history of fatigue, severe muscle pain, headache, rapid heartbeat and hypertension, which began after staying at a dairy farmhouse. He ate a typical Western diet including dairy. His physician gave him a high dose of lactose and tested his breath hydrogen. Normal breath hydrogen is more than 20 ppm; his was 273 ppm after three hours, and he had chronic fatigue symptoms. After all dairy was eliminated, his symptoms were either dramatically reduced or disappeared entirely.



Matthews, S.B. and A.K. Campbell. "When Sugar Is Not So Sweet," The Lancet, vol. 355, April 15, 2000.



And lactose intolerance often does not present until your mid twenties, our production of the enzyme that breaks down lactose slows down as we age. Now I'm not saying I completely endorse it as the sole reason for his "mystery illness", but the more I researched it and found more cases of severe fatigue being associated with lactose intolerance I became more accepting of it.....and, going back to the beginning of Stoner's illness I did recall diarrhea, cramping and mild anemia being mentioned as some presenting symptoms of his initial fatigue. Back then, I was guessing that it was a virally induced gut inflammation made worse by his mental ruminations. Well after researching more, I would have to agree that it's possible for subtle or occult lactose intolerance to lead to chronic gut inflammation, diarrhea, malabsorbtion and thus severe fatigue; BUT, I do think the physical and mental pressure of extreme competition exacerbate such symptoms. So in short, lactose intolerance doesn't only present as frequent bloating, farting and often embarrassing hershey squirt "sharting".

Now, if you asked me which would I rather race a motorcyle with, a broken bone, or lactose intolerance I would initially have said "that's easy I'd take lactose intolerance". But after doing research and learning that lactose intolerance can often present as much worse than bloating, farting, and diarrhea I'd say "let me think about this". Or let me propose it to you this way CK. Try to remember the morning after your worst hangover, you know, where you were still puking up undigested tequila and tacos, and then your bowels start nudging you to sit on the toilet.....now you start to spray undigested tequila and tacos from your .........now after about an hour, when your good and dehydrated, ride a 200hp motorcycle in the heat, for an hour at the absolute limit of your ability. Would you rather do that or ride a motorcyle with a broken collar bone or wrist bone? You gotta admit that scenario makes you think about it a little differently. Right? Now CK, I consider you one of my good friends so I'm not ranting that one is easier to "deal with" than the other, and I don't mean to .... on your post from my high horse (and you know my faith in Casey is slipping slightly). I'm just saying that as crazy as it sounds, lactose intolerance can be worse than you think (and I just recently learned that myself which is embarrassing for me to admit

).

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So GatorDoc, you are basically saying 'Stoner is a .....'.

Try to remember the morning after your worst hangover, you know, where you were still puking up undigested tequila and tacos, and then your bowels start nudging you to sit on the toilet.....now you start to spray undigested tequila and tacos from your .........now after about an hour, when your good and dehydrated, ride a 200hp motorcycle in the heat, for an hour at the absolute limit of your ability.

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Dude, as true as the morning sun, this exact scenario happened at my house! And I have the pics to prove it. CK, would you like me to post yourself in the prone position outside my kitchen? Hahahaha. Man that was a great day!



Gator that was an outstanding post, thanks for that insightful well thought-out and researched take. And what a fitting example you gave CK, as just two days ago we went on something called a "Booze Cruise". I don't know if your ears were ringing, because you came up allot in the conversation. Anyway we met at my pad at 3pm and promptly started taking shots of Tres Generaciones premium tequila that CK was so kind to bring. By 5pm about 18 of us got into an RV designed to sleep 6 and drove to Long Beach where we boarded a boat smartly equipped with a Reggae band and gratuitous alcohol. We uttered multiple times, "if only Gator & Levi didn't live 3000 miles away (seriously). Anyway, several people lost coherent abilities and a few "I love you man (s)" later we were headed home to meet our appointments with a hangover. So this example should be fresh in CK mind. Hahaha

Lots of great reading in this thread, makes a change.



I would like to point out that this kind of thing has happened to Stoner in every year of his Moto GP career except one, 2007. It's undeniable that there is a pattern now, just as his commitment to riding motorcycles is undeniable. If it is confidence problem (kind way of saying mental weakness) it can't be dismissed by period of consistancy such as at the end of last year (Arab I'm looking at your comments here) as that kind of problem is uncontrolable. Sufferers of anxiety never know when it is going to strike, & I think in Stoner's case it's his desire to win that is tripping him up (pardon the pun) & causing the anxiety. You could see how much he wanted to do well at Le Mans, & that nervous energy is causing (has caused throughout his career so far) him to drop it. Every rider suffers from it, Rossi (Motegi 2005, Valencia 2006) Lorenzo (Brno 2009), 3 races in & we have yet to see if Jorge is fully over it.



Stoner undoubtedly will win again, you can't keep that kind of skill down everytime, but it's purely down to him to get it under control.



Just not at Silverstone please