Joined Apr 2015
1K Posts | 731+
neptune
Joined Apr 2015
6K Posts | 5K+
NJ
But did they win the championship ........ no
Did they win races .......... yes, one wet race in 2007 with the rainmaster (Vermuelen who I believe was second only to West in the wet)
Were the Bridgestones developed for Suzuki and not 'pick from a pack ' - said to have been yes as they were not using Ducati rubber as it was the era of open slather tyre development - so they also received items that were not available to others (or not suitable to others)
I would argue that Rossi between September 2015 and today has far exceeded any of the CS' whinges .............. but then, I am not sure that is the type of cStoner's best you mean
Joined Apr 2015
6K Posts | 5K+
NJ
I would argue that Rossi between September 2015 and today has far exceeded any of the CS' whinges .............. but then, I am not sure that is the type of cStoner's best you mean
Easier replying to short messages atm I'm on my phone and I don't have jums ability to post long messages from the phone haha.
Stoner was labeled as a whiner for being brutally honest. Trunkman.co.uk already talked about how Rossi whined as much if not more than Stoner but the media gave him a pass as have the fans including some in this topic.
If you go back through my posts you will see many where I have taken issue with the perception that Stoner whined when he would often say the same as others but because of his delivery he was labelled as winging whereas others were making fair or funny comments (there certainly were times when he whinged, but show me a rider who doesn't)
IMO, but the 'problems' with acceptance of his comments for Stoner are that he does have a nasally type of voice, and often through media and movies a nasally voice is used to indicate a negative personal trait. Couple this with the fact that he often would not smile when speaking and thus people perceived him to be whinging.
On the other hand we have Edwards who would say much the same but with a smile, a funny quote thrown in, laugh at himself and together with his more accepted accent (the Texan drawl is portrayed as manly) his comments were accepted.
Then there is Rossi who has the media savvy to be brilliantly cutting and denigrating with a comment, but deliver it in a manner that makes the comment seem as though he is joking, certainly less than serious.
That is the short version but essentially, in this media driven world, delivery is everything (and I say that tempered by what many do actually say of Stoner with regards to what they call his 'true' personality)
PI with the 10 second penalty (without passing judgement on that penalty and issues about yellow flags) was pretty damn special as well ............
I have no problem with all the "advantages" stuff, it is prototype racing, nor would I seek to discredit any of VR's many titles.
I do have a problem with his fans complaining about other riders having "advantages" when none has had any more than he has.
It is every serious competitor he has ever had being vilified and discredited by the substantial crazy cult element among his fandom to which I really object, something in which it is now apparent he is fully complicit and sometimes leads; the latter has put me well on the way towards being a Rossi "hater", which I wasn't, at least by own assessment, previously.
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Totally agree Mike.
As for the 'Rossi Hater', I would ask you to think whether 'hater' is the right term as I suspect that a lot of people are more 'frustrated/disappointed' than actually hateful.
That said, I do not consider myself a 'Rossi Hater' purely because I have never liked the personality given stories told to me by those that have had direct experiences at various MotoGP's for a great number of years.
Joined Apr 2015
6K Posts | 5K+
NJ
Okay in front of a computer.
Let me ask you this, did Rossi ever find himself behind the 8-ball of a last second rules changes aimed at helping another rider instead of him the way Stoner found himself more than once?
I know exactly why he uses it, but that's not what I am discussing.
He has done immeasurable damage from every concept of sporting fair play and best practices unlike any grand prix motorcycle rider before him, and likely will ever come after him. Sepang was the culmination of everything. Yes I do agree Dorna shares plenty of blame for giving in because all they see is the fanbase support he has. However, a truly forward-thinking individual would consider the larger picture of the sport, something he has refused to do, and continues to refuse to do by further stoking the flames towards Marc Marquez.
As far as benefits not available to others, yes the threat to quit in order to get what he want IS A BENEFIT NOT AVAILABLE TO ANY OTHER. This is the entire problem, he throws bombs, threatens, and gets his way! Any other rider who throws temper tantrums is either written off or ignored, yet Rossi has meetings with Dorna's upper management on race weekends all the time!
What you're doing is writing an excuse for it. That's your choice obviously, but this is not a case of HRC stamping their feet to get their way...this is a guy who is setting an example for riders that are yet to come as acceptable behavior. At some point, personal responsibility DOES factor into the entire thing, and I can judge him on his .... behavior and how he has chosen to wield the power he obtained. He is one chapter in grand prix motorcycle racing.
Here's also the thing about it that makes it insanely worse Gaz, professional sports have to operate under the belief that they are entirely legitimate enterprises. For them to work, the confidence cannot be undermined. VR has actively undermined the confidence in MotoGP as a competition being conducted fairly for years.
Joined Aug 2008
6K Posts | 748+
Thailand
Hmmm... in the real world footy and bicycle racing don't seem to have suffered...
Joined Apr 2015
6K Posts | 5K+
NJ
Oh look it's MickD.
FIFA has suffered pretty heavily as of recent for their actions.
Bicycling saw a whole number of bans and one in particular being stripped of all of his titles, reduced to living his life in disgrace.
Oh, I'm sorry I forgot you have no point again like usual.
To be honest and from memory, no.
But that does not mean that he has not suffered due to rule changes and nor does it mean that the rule changes are at his behest or to make him more competitive (although that could be argued)
How has he damaged fair play (aside from the last few months of course) ?
Just because DORNA give him what he seemingly wishes or give him what they believe he wishes does NOT make him cuplable ............. it makes DORNA culpable for the benefits.
He and Team Rossi have been allowed to develop and build the power base by DORNA and it is that power base that places pressure on DORNA to give what they believe benefits Rossi and by benefitting Rossi, it benefits DORNA by producing more income, or at a minimum it sustains the existing income stream.
Now, one would certainly like to think that VR may look for the future of the sport in terms of the power base ........... but seriously, why would he and why should he?
As with bike development where a rider develops for themselves, it is a DORNA responsibility to plan for the future of the sport, not the responsibility of Rossi or for that matter any other rider.
I would actually argue that he is extremely forward thinking and (despite the contradictions) feel that his last few months are evident as he has increased his fanbase by his actions which I would not be surprised have been deliberately timed to lessen the appeal of the challenger to the old stager (in sponsorship terms).
Every other rider on that grid would give their left testicle to be in his position .......
But Ducati had the Bridgestones
Suzuki had the Bridgestones
Kawasaki (cannot recall if they competed in 2008 and couldn't be assed looking) had Bridgestones (may have been Dunlop now I think)?
That is three other manufacturers using Bridgestones so they were not exclusively something for Rossi.
Now, you could argue that he got given the benefit because of pressure exerted from DORNA onto Bridgestone who had stated that they could not supply an additional rider and thus this was VR receiving a benefit. But the pressure on Bridgestone was from DORNA who well knew at the time whom their golden goose was, and considering that it was early GFC times, it was not an unreasonable action by DORNA (although I agree, unethical given that Pedrosa asked and was not afforded the opportunity)
You are well entitled to your belief but I personally see no difference from Honda stamping their feet to get their way, or Rossi doing the same and I certainly do not feel that what Rossi does is setting standard of acceptable or unacceptable for future riders (and happy to concede that we have seen many cases of 'but he did it' throughout the years in various sports)
I for one have no issues with him having the power, and nor do I blame him for wielding that power ................. but blame is not agreeing that he should be allowed to use it (allowed is the key word)
Who says that he has undermined the confidence .......... seriously?
Viewership is up.
Sponsorship dollars are up
Attendances are up.
Media revenue is up.
And I suspect all will see further increases next year purely BECAUSE of how 2015 finished.
Yes certainly in an ideal world every person would be treated fairly but would that not mean a spec series so that we could see if Pirro could compete with Rossi could compete with Pedrosa couled compete with Miller and so on.
Fact is that the world of sports is not fair ......... some athletes have better endurance than others and so use that asset to their benefit.
Rossi has the asset of power and uses it ........ or at least is allowed by DORNA to use it.
Do you believe for one minute that CS would not have kept the Ducati Bridgestones if he were in the position with DORNA by way of power?
Do you not think that Ducat would not keep there 22 litres and benefits allowed if they were in a position of power?
HRC rules DORNA with Yamaha having lesser (slightly) input as they are the golden geese of the manufacturing world
Rossi is the HRC of the rider world
Here you go JPS ............ the interview from test
And some pics - not all CS
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10154156573430769.1073741864.58201805768&type=3
And some pics - not all CS
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10154156573430769.1073741864.58201805768&type=3
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Joined Apr 2015
6K Posts | 5K+
NJ
Gaz you're sidestepping the issue by trying to introduce a subject which is not what we are discussing.
I said:
You went off on a tangent about something I frankly don't care about and am not discussing because it is not related to the issue at hand. You're confusing a team using legal methods to gain an advantage to a rider threatening to quit the sport if he is not given a particular tire manufacturers tire because he felt it was better and then being given what he wanted with regards to equipment because he threw a .... fit.
As for confidence in sport, Gaz, I have discussed this with #22 a few times and unfortunately the larger picture you along with many others miss is that up and coming riders who have seen how Valentino Rossi acts, will act the way he has, especially if they are fans of his. Sepang was the culmination of every bad bit of behavior in a 15 year career reaching it's nadir. This behavior is learned by those who are yet to come. This played out in F1 when up and coming drivers decided it was perfectly acceptable to mimic Michael Schumacher's aggressive and dangerous driving because he was never penalized for it, or it was endlessly minimized as an example of his total dedication and will to win. #22 confirmed it became tremendously problematic with kids emulating what they saw in karting, and even defending it by saying they saw Michael Schumacher do it. It's about a much larger picture as I said Gaz, and I don't give a .... whether you or anyone else here agree with me on it.
Secondly, his fans also would see no problem with everyone being hamstrung so as not to be allowed to compete with Rossi, so the "positive" numbers are hardly reflective of any real reality where you have people of intellect driving those numbers. Don't forget, these are the same people who thought it would be perfectly acceptable for riders to be taken out if it meant a significant benefit (WORLD TITLE) for VR.
Also, I'm not arguing for MotoGP to be run as a spec series. You misunderstand me completely. What I am arguing for is fair play where one rider is not given preferred winner status, not an equalized playing field with regards to equipment. They are two different things altogether.
Here's the thing, in your hypothetical about Stoner keeping the Bridgestones, we have no way of knowing because Stoner is not a guy like VR, and you're using a false equivalence based upon the preponderance that VR and CS are cut from the same cloth when they obviously never have been. CS never conducted himself the way VR has over the years.
Better endurance is not the same as being given advantages from those running the sport. That's another false equivalence. You can also increase your endurance through training. Nothing prevents one from doing that.
Yes HRC and Yamaha have far too much input, and the sport since the end of the 500cc era has been progressively worse off for it.
I know you have no problem with Rossi using the power, but the last 15 years of MotoGP while being financially successful unlike any period before that, have also actively created a very bad environment whether you want to agree with that or not.
Even though people think Stoner quit because of the media, I have always been of the belief it never was about the media. It was about the sport being rigged in favor of Rossi.
Let's not forget, Valentino Rossi is persona non grata at HRC. Yamaha did not want him back till the marketing division backdoored the racing division. This guy brings more problems and has undermined a great deal with regards to MotoGP.
That's why I have always said most of his fans suffer from a mental deficiency because only the ignorant and stupid would think this guy is worthy of being cheered for. All they see is the superficial ........, and have bought into his schtick so completely, that they are completely myopic on everything that he does. Were I fan of his, after the Sepang debacle, I would have walked away from ever supporting him, but his fans are not rational people by any stretch of the imagination. They cannot see him for what he is; snake oil salesman. They defend him upon the basis that they have formed some sort of personal connection based upon him smiling at them during autograph signing, or him signing an autograph for him. He manages his image well, I give him credit for that, but it's also aided and abetted by a less than unbiased MotoGP media that is more interested in not upsetting the apple cart because of how much money they are making off of him.
At the end of the day even if no one says it, most are thinking I am a "Rossi hater". No, I'm just someone who doesn't buy into the myth and smoke and mirrors ........ surrounding him and will knock him down off of his pedestal to ground level because it should be done. He represents a lot of bad things, and people should open their eyes more.
In any event Gaz, you're arguing based upon your belief things are the way they are and a generally more tolerant view. I' m arguing based upon a larger picture looking at the ripple effect of all of this, as well as best standards and practices. Even if best standards and practices aren't being met, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive to reach those standards, or call out behavior that clearly misses far below of the mark. Being permissive of .... behavior through rationalization is the quickest way to accepting a lower base standard for everything in life. It's not me, or who I am, and I believe in aiming far higher for standards.
Edit: I'm not discussing this anymore in this topic. Let's get back to Stoner.
I said:
You went off on a tangent about something I frankly don't care about and am not discussing because it is not related to the issue at hand. You're confusing a team using legal methods to gain an advantage to a rider threatening to quit the sport if he is not given a particular tire manufacturers tire because he felt it was better and then being given what he wanted with regards to equipment because he threw a .... fit.
As for confidence in sport, Gaz, I have discussed this with #22 a few times and unfortunately the larger picture you along with many others miss is that up and coming riders who have seen how Valentino Rossi acts, will act the way he has, especially if they are fans of his. Sepang was the culmination of every bad bit of behavior in a 15 year career reaching it's nadir. This behavior is learned by those who are yet to come. This played out in F1 when up and coming drivers decided it was perfectly acceptable to mimic Michael Schumacher's aggressive and dangerous driving because he was never penalized for it, or it was endlessly minimized as an example of his total dedication and will to win. #22 confirmed it became tremendously problematic with kids emulating what they saw in karting, and even defending it by saying they saw Michael Schumacher do it. It's about a much larger picture as I said Gaz, and I don't give a .... whether you or anyone else here agree with me on it.
Secondly, his fans also would see no problem with everyone being hamstrung so as not to be allowed to compete with Rossi, so the "positive" numbers are hardly reflective of any real reality where you have people of intellect driving those numbers. Don't forget, these are the same people who thought it would be perfectly acceptable for riders to be taken out if it meant a significant benefit (WORLD TITLE) for VR.
Also, I'm not arguing for MotoGP to be run as a spec series. You misunderstand me completely. What I am arguing for is fair play where one rider is not given preferred winner status, not an equalized playing field with regards to equipment. They are two different things altogether.
Here's the thing, in your hypothetical about Stoner keeping the Bridgestones, we have no way of knowing because Stoner is not a guy like VR, and you're using a false equivalence based upon the preponderance that VR and CS are cut from the same cloth when they obviously never have been. CS never conducted himself the way VR has over the years.
Better endurance is not the same as being given advantages from those running the sport. That's another false equivalence. You can also increase your endurance through training. Nothing prevents one from doing that.
Yes HRC and Yamaha have far too much input, and the sport since the end of the 500cc era has been progressively worse off for it.
I know you have no problem with Rossi using the power, but the last 15 years of MotoGP while being financially successful unlike any period before that, have also actively created a very bad environment whether you want to agree with that or not.
Even though people think Stoner quit because of the media, I have always been of the belief it never was about the media. It was about the sport being rigged in favor of Rossi.
Let's not forget, Valentino Rossi is persona non grata at HRC. Yamaha did not want him back till the marketing division backdoored the racing division. This guy brings more problems and has undermined a great deal with regards to MotoGP.
That's why I have always said most of his fans suffer from a mental deficiency because only the ignorant and stupid would think this guy is worthy of being cheered for. All they see is the superficial ........, and have bought into his schtick so completely, that they are completely myopic on everything that he does. Were I fan of his, after the Sepang debacle, I would have walked away from ever supporting him, but his fans are not rational people by any stretch of the imagination. They cannot see him for what he is; snake oil salesman. They defend him upon the basis that they have formed some sort of personal connection based upon him smiling at them during autograph signing, or him signing an autograph for him. He manages his image well, I give him credit for that, but it's also aided and abetted by a less than unbiased MotoGP media that is more interested in not upsetting the apple cart because of how much money they are making off of him.
At the end of the day even if no one says it, most are thinking I am a "Rossi hater". No, I'm just someone who doesn't buy into the myth and smoke and mirrors ........ surrounding him and will knock him down off of his pedestal to ground level because it should be done. He represents a lot of bad things, and people should open their eyes more.
In any event Gaz, you're arguing based upon your belief things are the way they are and a generally more tolerant view. I' m arguing based upon a larger picture looking at the ripple effect of all of this, as well as best standards and practices. Even if best standards and practices aren't being met, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive to reach those standards, or call out behavior that clearly misses far below of the mark. Being permissive of .... behavior through rationalization is the quickest way to accepting a lower base standard for everything in life. It's not me, or who I am, and I believe in aiming far higher for standards.
Edit: I'm not discussing this anymore in this topic. Let's get back to Stoner.
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No JPS, you are skirting it
The FACT is that Rossi was not alone on the Bridgestones thus, the benefit was already that of others.
The Benefit he was allowed to have was that he was allowed to switch after Bridgestone had stated that they had no additional capability to manufacture for an additional rider ......... what that did was make the benefit unavailable to some others (remembering that Bridgestone did not exclusively supply Rossi)
The issue that people have with Rossi is that he has power ........... this has been allowed to build by DORNA and thus DORNA are to blame.
See, I see it this way.
If one is allowed to commit a crime because their parents do not scold or because their parents encourage it, then is the kid in the wrong?
The short answer is yes, but the longer answer is that the child is a victim of environment, and that environment allows it to happen. Change the environment to remove the acceptance of the bad behaviour, and you will stop it.
But, we shall not agree on it and I for one will not besmirch Rossi's achievements on track ............. off track I have as much time for him and his personality as I do my inlaws (wife and I have not spoken to them for near 10 years).
Now, go and watch that video I posted
The FACT is that Rossi was not alone on the Bridgestones thus, the benefit was already that of others.
The Benefit he was allowed to have was that he was allowed to switch after Bridgestone had stated that they had no additional capability to manufacture for an additional rider ......... what that did was make the benefit unavailable to some others (remembering that Bridgestone did not exclusively supply Rossi)
The issue that people have with Rossi is that he has power ........... this has been allowed to build by DORNA and thus DORNA are to blame.
See, I see it this way.
If one is allowed to commit a crime because their parents do not scold or because their parents encourage it, then is the kid in the wrong?
The short answer is yes, but the longer answer is that the child is a victim of environment, and that environment allows it to happen. Change the environment to remove the acceptance of the bad behaviour, and you will stop it.
But, we shall not agree on it and I for one will not besmirch Rossi's achievements on track ............. off track I have as much time for him and his personality as I do my inlaws (wife and I have not spoken to them for near 10 years).
Now, go and watch that video I posted
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Should add that the interview is quite refreshing when you see the comfort of Stoner.
Yes it is a friendly bunch of journalists but the relaxed nature of the interview and Stoner's response does (I believe) show Stoner in what I have been told by some is a truer picture.
He obviously has some items up his sleeve and will not let them slip but was a good interview all up (all IMO)
Yes it is a friendly bunch of journalists but the relaxed nature of the interview and Stoner's response does (I believe) show Stoner in what I have been told by some is a truer picture.
He obviously has some items up his sleeve and will not let them slip but was a good interview all up (all IMO)
