Spec MotoGP ECU available for 2013

MotoGP Forum

Help Support MotoGP Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
But rarely lead the street/sport bike tech wars.

As in the last few years? Yes I would agree, the CBR is getting long in the tooth compared to the latest BMW. Previously not so much. RC30, RC45, VFR800 VTEC, even the original CBR Fireblade as the first lightweight big bore.



Even now I still see plenty of this>>>Are they just sucking up to the big H?



From the engine to chassis the Honda presents the best overall package. Despite being down on top-end power, its cornering superiority along with top scores in six categories allowed it to steal the crown away from the mighty BMW proving that the CBR1000RR is indeed the best Superbike 2012. http://www.motorcycl...Comparison.aspx
 
Just had a thought...



Let's say Honda throws a fit over the speck ECU, packs up it's toys and heads over to WSBK. Oh ...., motogp is in trouble....but what about this? What if Honda leaving makes Suzuki, BMW, Aprillia, Kawasaki, etc. think "hey, those ........ are gone now, I'm heading back to the party", and rejoin MGP? It could be a good thing. Honda eventually come back realising that WSBK isn't going to let them write the rulebook either.



You never know know mate, they rewrote the rulebook for Ducati numerous times!
 
As in the last few years? Yes I would agree, the CBR is getting long in the tooth compared to the latest BMW. Previously not so much. RC30, RC45, VFR800 VTEC, even the original CBR Fireblade as the first lightweight big bore.



Even now I still see plenty of this>>>Are they just sucking up to the big H?



From the engine to chassis the Honda presents the best overall package. Despite being down on top-end power, its cornering superiority along with top scores in six categories allowed it to steal the crown away from the mighty BMW proving that the CBR1000RR is indeed the best Superbike 2012. http://www.motorcycl...Comparison.aspx
RC30 and 45 were homogolation specials, not exactly standard street/sport bikes AND they were uncompetitive without mods. Other than the VTEC not much special about the VFR other than its niche market (yes I've owned a '99 and '03 VFR and a '86 VR750). I'd say the original GSXR750/1000 set the standard for big bore low weight long before the original 929 Blade.



As for mag comparos you'll find more saying this:



CBR1000RR is refined in every sense of the word, with a composed feeling that immediately instills confidence in inexperienced and experienced riders alike. Like the Yamaha however, the Honda suffers from less than stellar fueling (this despite Honda’s years of working to rid the problem), and its spring rate out back is a touch too soft.



The primary reason for the Honda falling behind the Suzuki is a vague feel from the new Showa BPF fork through faster sweepers (a likely result of the bike’s soft rear spring). The Honda’s slipper clutch allows a lot more movement from the rear of the bike as well, adding some excitement at corner entry, and the new digital instrumentation didn’t go down well with our testers.




What didn’t impress was imprecise fueling both off the bottom and coming off closed throttle into corners. The engine’s response tended to be a little soggy if you tried to be aggressive with the throttle below 5000 rpm, and it was still abrupt when getting back on the gas in the transition between brakes and throttle unless you had the touch of a brain surgeon.

http://www.sportride...l#ixzz27jxNOJnq
 
Just had a thought...



Let's say Honda throws a fit over the speck ECU, packs up it's toys and heads over to WSBK. Oh ...., motogp is in trouble....but what about this? What if Honda leaving makes Suzuki, BMW, Aprillia, Kawasaki, etc. think "hey, those ........ are gone now, I'm heading back to the party", and rejoin MGP? It could be a good thing. Honda eventually come back realising that WSBK isn't going to let them write the rulebook either.



BMW and Aprilia are also allegedly give-us-the-rulebook-or-we-walk 'competitors'. The sport might have better marketing optics if new manufacturers filled the void left by Honda, but I doubt the MSMA would be a more reasonable institution.



Furthermore, Honda can control WSBK without the rulebook. The manufacturers don't have the rulebook, but they do have influence (if not outright control) over the homologation papers. If the homologation quantities are drastically reduced, and the technical restrictions are loosened, the manufacturers could basically homologate MotoGP bikes for WSBK competition. IMS' only play would be to turn Superbike into Superstock and hope that the manufacturers blanch at the prospect of selling race technologies on stock motorcycles and they reinstate sensible homologation standards. But if WSBK doesn't have any major manufacturers.....................MotoGP can always lean on private prototyping companies. WSBK cannot.
 
Just had a thought...



Let's say Honda throws a fit over the speck ECU, packs up it's toys and heads over to WSBK. Oh ...., motogp is in trouble....but what about this? What if Honda leaving makes Suzuki, BMW, Aprillia, Kawasaki, etc. think "hey, those ........ are gone now, I'm heading back to the party", and rejoin MGP? It could be a good thing. Honda eventually come back realising that WSBK isn't going to let them write the rulebook either.



The problem is, Dorna is taking the sport towards a grid full of Race Teams rather than a grid full of manufacturers. This is why they are going down the spec parts path. BMW, Aprillia, Suzuki and Kawasaki are not going to come and play if they have to add a whole lot of spec parts to their bike but Race Teams will if they don't have to develop high tech stuff like electronics packages.



As Michael said. Dorna are trying to emulate F1 but unfortunately none of the MotoGP Satellite teams have followings like Maclaren etc have. There is no history. Dorna are trying to make a new product because they lost control of the current product.



WSBK will be the domain of the manufacturers within a few short years. Will probably suit the manufacturers as well as they will be able to produce short run hyper versions of their standard sports bikes for conversion into full race spec WSBK's.



Dorna will either fail or succeed to build their new product. I am voting on fail as it seems to be their default result.
 
Additionally, and as I have stated before. If Honda leave they will certainly take Pedrosa and Marquez with them. If Dorna doesn't fix the marketing/sponsorship issues they have created over the past decade then no Race Teams will be able to afford to pay the Lorenzo's of the world 10 million a year so they will go to WSBK where the manufacturers are so they can get paid the big dollars.



I have no doubt that Honda leaving MotoGP will kill MotoGP.
 
I have no doubt that Honda leaving MotoGP will kill MotoGP.

Even F1 has been fairly dependent on Ferrari for most of the time bernie has been running the show, with any breakaway series involving Ferrari very likely to prevail despite all machinations by bernie.
 
Moto GP gets stranger every year.

Dorna is playing chicken with MSMA and WSKB may be the winner.



The relationship between Dorna, FIM, MSMA and IRTA is such that Dorna aren't playing chicken. If IRTA (who 'own' GP racing) decided to play hard ball over the format, they would win. But Dorna is the company that has handed over hundreds of millions of dollars to IRTA and the FIM in fees and appearance and prize money.



Their motivation is to sell MotoGP to broadcasters, the broadcasters sell advertising slots on the back of MotoGP's popularity. If motoGP isn't popular, prices are less, Dorna's take is less, the overall amount of money in GP is less. It is in their interest to keep it interesting and to increase viewers.



IRTA's motivation is to represent the teams, sponsors, vendors and manufacturers that are involved in MotoGP.



The MSMA's motivation is to secure the best conditions to race in for the manufacturers.



The FIM's motivation is as the sanctioning body of international two-wheeled motorsport - to make sure that international road-racing continues and is fair.



For Dorna to 'play chicken' to such an extent that the major players walked out of GP racing would be to take their goose and bugger it where the golden eggs come out.



They don't have some deep-seated agenda to emasculate GP racing, they are an entertainment company. They are worried that GP racing isn't as entertaining as it used to be and want to make it more so. They have been successful with Moto3 and Moto2 and now they are looking to attract more and higher-calibre racers to MotoGP.



They drew a line in the sand in 2010 and stated they would no longer fund factory teams, that they would be putting their money into teams running the new CRT-spec bikes. The specification of CRT is wide open - pretty much anything that meets the technical rules goes, as long as it isn't a 'factory' bike.



Aprilia have run close to the wire by making a turnkey GP bike but as Aprilia themselves aren't racing and have no team management or representation in the pits, they are not considered a factory bike. There is nothing to stop Honda and Yamaha doing the same - but they have said they won't. You want an M1 or RC you get a bevy of Honda technical guys with laptops that come with it. You don't get to play with the good stuff, you just get to do the mechanicals.



If a factory such as MV or Guzzi or Norton were to build a prototype and sell it to be run in GP, it would still be considered a CRT bike, because of the nature of their investment and involvement. If Suzuki USA and Yoshimura were to collaborate and run a bike in GP, it would also be considered a CRT, but if Rizla were to re-enter as the official Suzuki factory effort, they wouldn't. But if Rizla were to build their own chassis and stick a few of their old 990 engines in it, they would.







Just stating that Dorna are stuffing up the sport and playing chicken with the factories ignores the relationship between them. Honda need Dorna as much as Dorna needs Honda - more so. If Honda up and left, Dorna would find some other way of getting bikes to take up the slack. Honda would lose 5.5B viewers.



And don't forget - the same company that owns Dorna owns InFront (the rights holders to WSBK). With viewing figures of around 500M versus 5.5B annually, who do you think would win if it came to a showdown on spec, WSBK or MotoGP?



So who's playing chicken?
<
 
even the original CBR Fireblade as the first lightweight big bore.



The only people that thought that were those members of Honda's Kool-Ade Gang
<




2001 GSXR K1 170kg dry, 160PS

2005 GSXR K5 166kg dry, 178PS

2004 CBR 180kg dry, 148PS



I always found the CBs and CBRs to be top-heavy and 'tippy' compared to the GSX's... something about the handling and weight never gelled with me, where the FZs and R1s were such sweetly balanced bikes, as were the GSXs - but that's personal taste.
 
If Honda leave they will certainly take Pedrosa and Marquez with them.



I think you overestimate the power of Honda and underestimate the power of MotoGP to riders.



Pedrosa and Marquez would never leave MotoGP for WSBK unless MotoGP had folded entirely.



They are riders at the top echelon of the sport, they aren't going to ride in the cowboy classes jut because Honda are packing up.



Look at Spies - he would rather ride a satellite bike in MotoGP than a factory bike in WSBK.



There's a very good reason...
 
The relationship between Dorna, FIM, MSMA and IRTA is such that Dorna aren't playing chicken. If IRTA (who 'own' GP racing) decided to play hard ball over the format, they would win. But Dorna is the company that has handed over hundreds of millions of dollars to IRTA and the FIM in fees and appearance and prize money.



Their motivation is to sell MotoGP to broadcasters, the broadcasters sell advertising slots on the back of MotoGP's popularity. If motoGP isn't popular, prices are less, Dorna's take is less, the overall amount of money in GP is less. It is in their interest to keep it interesting and to increase viewers.



IRTA's motivation is to represent the teams, sponsors, vendors and manufacturers that are involved in MotoGP.



The MSMA's motivation is to secure the best conditions to race in for the manufacturers.



The FIM's motivation is as the sanctioning body of international two-wheeled motorsport - to make sure that international road-racing continues and is fair.



For Dorna to 'play chicken' to such an extent that the major players walked out of GP racing would be to take their goose and bugger it where the golden eggs come out.



They don't have some deep-seated agenda to emasculate GP racing, they are an entertainment company. They are worried that GP racing isn't as entertaining as it used to be and want to make it more so. They have been successful with Moto3 and Moto2 and now they are looking to attract more and higher-calibre racers to MotoGP.



They drew a line in the sand in 2010 and stated they would no longer fund factory teams, that they would be putting their money into teams running the new CRT-spec bikes. The specification of CRT is wide open - pretty much anything that meets the technical rules goes, as long as it isn't a 'factory' bike.



Aprilia have run close to the wire by making a turnkey GP bike but as Aprilia themselves aren't racing and have no team management or representation in the pits, they are not considered a factory bike. There is nothing to stop Honda and Yamaha doing the same - but they have said they won't. You want an M1 or RC you get a bevy of Honda technical guys with laptops that come with it. You don't get to play with the good stuff, you just get to do the mechanicals.



If a factory such as MV or Guzzi or Norton were to build a prototype and sell it to be run in GP, it would still be considered a CRT bike, because of the nature of their investment and involvement. If Suzuki USA and Yoshimura were to collaborate and run a bike in GP, it would also be considered a CRT, but if Rizla were to re-enter as the official Suzuki factory effort, they wouldn't. But if Rizla were to build their own chassis and stick a few of their old 990 engines in it, they would.







Just stating that Dorna are stuffing up the sport and playing chicken with the factories ignores the relationship between them. Honda need Dorna as much as Dorna needs Honda - more so. If Honda up and left, Dorna would find some other way of getting bikes to take up the slack. Honda would lose 5.5B viewers.



And don't forget - the same company that owns Dorna owns InFront (the rights holders to WSBK). With viewing figures of around 500M versus 5.5B annually, who do you think would win if it came to a showdown on spec, WSBK or MotoGP?



So who's playing chicken?
<

All good points. I may be wrong but I don't think FIM have had much involvement with at least the technical rules for a while other than to rubber stamp them, the msma/dorna seem to have made them up/stuffed them up separately or in collaboration with little reference to them. Carmelo doesn't speak like a man who feels any need to check with the FIM before coming up with CRT formulae or whatever; whether or not CRT is a good idea in the end, the original proposal sounded like something he and his mates had drawn up on the back of a drinks coaster in a late night tapas bar.



I mostly agree with lex, but I think honda are not strictly driven by western business motives as you have also said. Whatever the morality or even the rationality I could see them walking if they really think they are being screwed with, if they think the thing is too mickey mouse, or even possibly if the likes of kawasaki or whoever actually have a chance of beating them through what they see as artificial means. They seem to run a fairly successful car business despite no longer competing in F1.



I actually think honda are rightly or wrongly genuinely peeved by the late weight and tyre changes etc, and while they pulled out all stops perhaps to prove it couldn't be done to them I am not sure they were glad about the extra expenditure or what they may see as wasted previous effort.
 
The problem is, Dorna is taking the sport towards a grid full of Race Teams rather than a grid full of manufacturers. This is why they are going down the spec parts path. BMW, Aprillia, Suzuki and Kawasaki are not going to come and play if they have to add a whole lot of spec parts to their bike but Race Teams will if they don't have to develop high tech stuff like electronics packages.



As Michael said. Dorna are trying to emulate F1 but unfortunately none of the MotoGP Satellite teams have followings like Maclaren etc have. There is no history. Dorna are trying to make a new product because they lost control of the current product.



WSBK will be the domain of the manufacturers within a few short years. Will probably suit the manufacturers as well as they will be able to produce short run hyper versions of their standard sports bikes for conversion into full race spec WSBK's.



Dorna will either fail or succeed to build their new product. I am voting on fail as it seems to be their default result.

Exactly! WSBK will be the playground for the manufacturers without a doubt. It is going the way of NASbikeGP. Whatever the excuse, explanation, etc, it isn't motogp when you go to the format of a moto2. That totally killed the integrity in my opinion.
 
I think you overestimate the power of Honda and underestimate the power of MotoGP to riders.



Pedrosa and Marquez would never leave MotoGP for WSBK unless MotoGP had folded entirely.



They are riders at the top echelon of the sport, they aren't going to ride in the cowboy classes jut because Honda are packing up.



Look at Spies - he would rather ride a satellite bike in MotoGP than a factory bike in WSBK.



There's a very good reason...



But the choice is Not MotoGP or WSBK. The choice for riders within a couple of years under my scenario is:



MotoGP on a CRT and at best 1-2 million of money you have found yourself from personal sponsors,



or



WSBK on a Factory bike with your current 8-10 million of Factory money.



MotoGP is only the pinnacle because the manufacturers are present and building unobtanium factory prototypes. Once the manufacturers are gone and CRT bikes remain the difference between Moto1 and WSBK will be very small.



Which version of WC racing being the most popular will be decided by whether Dorna can sell Moto1 and where the top riders are. Considering Dorna have been unable to sell MotoGP for a decade and have resorted to selling VR instead, Moto1 with no history or top riders will have nothing to maintain the audience.
 
The only people that thought that were those members of Honda's Kool-Ade Gang
<




2001 GSXR K1 170kg dry, 160PS

2005 GSXR K5 166kg dry, 178PS

2004 CBR 180kg dry, 148PS



I always found the CBs and CBRs to be top-heavy and 'tippy' compared to the GSX's... something about the handling and weight never gelled with me, where the FZs and R1s were such sweetly balanced bikes, as were the GSXs - but that's personal taste.

Yes Suzuki has made some great sportbikes, the R1 was groundbreaking etc. I was thinking more of the orginal 1992 900 Fireblade.................... the GSXR1100 was more a porky sports tourer at that time? http://www.simonreid...ade/history.htm
 
All good points. I may be wrong but I don't think FIM have had much involvement with at least the technical rules for a while other than to rubber stamp them, the msma/dorna seem to have made them up/stuffed them up separately or in collaboration with little reference to them. Carmelo doesn't speak like a man who feels any need to check with the FIM before coming up with CRT formulae or whatever; whether or not CRT is a good idea in the end, the original proposal sounded like something he and his mates had drawn up on the back of a drinks coaster in a late night tapas bar.



I mostly agree with lex, but I think honda are not strictly driven by western business motives as you have also said. Whatever the morality or even the rationality I could see them walking if they really think they are being screwed with, if they think the thing is too mickey mouse, or even possibly if the likes of kawasaki or whoever actually have a chance of beating them through what they see as artificial means. They seem to run a fairly successful car business despite no longer competing in F1.



I actually think honda are rightly or wrongly genuinely peeved by the late weight and tyre changes etc, and while they pulled out all stops perhaps to prove it couldn't be done to them I am not sure they were glad about the extra expenditure or what they may see as wasted previous effort.
That should be all you need to know that Honda is only in this to put on a a show, up to now they've made sure they can look good during the show because of the rules. All you have to do is look at their involvement in motosports to see that their passion is making money just like any company. Stock holders don't care about racing they care about money.
 
Here's Magneti Marelli's top of the line unit.



MM1.jpg


MM2.jpg




The thing is vastly powerful, a computer in a box with all manner of I/O and logging features. The system appears to be completely programmable, making adding features such as anti-wheelie relatively simple. Write some code, re-compile, and flash the memory. Done.



Stipulating that all teams run the same black box is one thing, but demanding that all teams run the same basic program or library modules is quite another. This would effectively limit the teams to fine-tuning the data found in tables and function coefficients.



At the moment it seems quite unclear just how far Ezzy wants to push this issue.
 
Here's Magneti Marelli's top of the line unit.



MM1.jpg


MM2.jpg




The thing is vastly powerful, a computer in a box with all manner of I/O and logging features. The system appears to be completely programmable, making adding features such as anti-wheelie relatively simple. Write some code, re-compile, and flash the memory. Done.



Stipulating that all teams run the same black box is one thing, but demanding that all teams run the same basic program or library modules is quite another. This would effectively limit the teams to fine-tuning the data found in tables and function coefficients.



At the moment it seems quite unclear just how far Ezzy wants to push this issue.



<
<
<




reminds me of when the boppers were crying ...... "stoner uses the most electronics!!"



<
<
<




WTF did they think Rossi was running !!



webster.jpg




<
<
<




Crikey!! trip down memory lane!!



I had ( and worked on many ) engines with these!!

WicoXHCapsRotor.jpg




<
<
<




On the Marelli ...... most of them run this anyway don't they ( these days )? So long as Ezi doesn't limit the software "creativity" too much .... the effect should be equivalent to ( meh^[sup]infinity[/sup] ) ie. bugger all.

Mayhaps Ezi is just going to get them cheaper by buying a carton of ECU's and handing them out .... buy in bulk, always better.
 
That should be all you need to know that Honda is only in this to put on a a show, up to now they've made sure they can look good during the show because of the rules. All you have to do is look at their involvement in motosports to see that their passion is making money just like any company. Stock holders don't care about racing they care about money.

They and yamaha have always won whatever the rules, all the more reason why they shouldn't be allowed to further fix the rules for their own ends of course. The real problems at the moment are that only 1 yamaha and 1 or 2 hondas can win, that the cost of producing those bikes and even the second tier versions is ridiculously expensive, and that both the cost and the arcane nature of the technology is a barrier to the entry of manufacturers other than honda and yamaha. I might add in terms of the current debate that when a third manufacturer did find a way to win a title a few years back it did not exactly result in universal joy either though.
 

Recent Discussions

Recent Discussions

Back
Top