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Spec MotoGP ECU available for 2013

Mental Anarchist said:
Name me a racing serious of any sort any where in the world at any level (Club to World Championship) where what you have stated is not the case? The only ones you will find are spec racing where they hand the machine back at the end of the race.



So what are we barracking for? MotoGP as a spec racing sport? Turn up on Thursday and get issued your bike from Dorna then hand it back on Sunday arvo?



Essentially what Dorna have done is create a monopoly in motorcycle electronics that will filter down to all production bikes. In 5 years time there will be almost no differentiation in what is getting installed in production bikes because manufacturers will have no where to develop their own stuff. MM's stuff will get better and better and the competition won't be able to keep up. End result, consumer gets screwed as is always the case when a monopoly is created.
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I agree - the teams with the most money can always attract the better rider, team and sponsors - it has always been thus.



But... Carmelo is trying to level the field.



I think condemnation is a bit previous - just like CRT was touted as the end of the world and we have subsequently seen that while they aren't at the front, they are doing much better in their first year than was predicted. Moto2 was almost universally panned, but seems to be giving us some pretty damned good racing, as is Moto3.



If these ECUs can bring even more equality to the non-factory teams at a price they can afford, good on Dorna. I will reserve my judgement until we see what the changes bring.



They couldn't hurt.
 
michaelm said:
I think even honda and yamaha have admitted they need to be saved from themselves in terms of the unsustainable cost structure of the sport
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Absolutely.



The problem being, neither of them want to give up a competitive advantage. While they know how much the technology arms race is costing them, they accept it because they want to be number one.



There seems to be a lot being written on here about the motivations of Honda and Yamaha, despite both companies clearly stating over years that the money isn't the issue - they race to win. That is the motivation to spend $50M-100M each year. They will quit the competition when they feel they aren't in a place to compete for the win.



Making 'factory' turnkey racers isn't so interesting to them because they know they are giving someone else their technology at a cut-price rate. They want the bike crossing the line and the rider raising the trophy to have HRC or Yamaha Racing under his/its name.
 
Mental Anarchist said:
Explain to me how spec ECU will create growth and progress?



In my opinion growth and progress comes from looking for ways to beat your competitor.
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The MM unit isn't a spec ECU. It is a top-quality ECU, software and support package available to teams that want it, at a reasonable price. This will enable non-factory teams to be more competitive without having to out-spend Honda and Yamaha in an electronics war of attrition.



It will give gifted, less-well-funded teams and riders a chance to foot it on a lesser budget.
 
Mick D said:
In your fantasy world is it naive to know that BMW and Kawasaki have, arguably, the best street electricks without developing them in MotoGP?
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Well BMW's road bike system is a turnkey Bosch system, refined from their developments in their car racing program over decades. The BMW WSBK system is an in-house electronics package developed by BMW Motorrad, from the ground up, with the advent of the S1000RR.
 
birdman said:
Honda generally leads the 1000 sport bike sales figures.
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Technics killed Sony on VHS v Betamax... sales figures really don't have much to do with the 'best'.



Honda has a lot of sales outlets, many programs and incentives to get bikes out the door.



You won't get a Ducati dealership without at least a $1M spend on branding. Aprilia's cost a lot to make. BMWs are 'exclusive' and dealerships require a massive investment in equipment and training.



I don't think Honda's 1000cc street bike sales figures have any relevance to MotoGP, except that it is a massive, world-wide advertising campaign for Honda. They aren't going to give that up in a hurry.
 
bluegreen said:
1)The fastest rider in the world leaving the series is a crime and we are all going to miss him. It shouldn't happen, period. As for your next question, and given competitive equipment, of the 21 riders I should think



Stoner

Lorenzo

Pedrosa

Rossi

Hayden

Spies

De Puniet

Dovi

Crutchlow



could win the whole thing.



Edwards

Bradl

Barbera

Bautista

Espargaro



could show up and win a race.



That's 14 of the 21 riders. And four of them could mop the floor with the series. Give me the list of how many of the 25 WSBK riders would go and win MotoGP races if they switched tomorrow? Yeah, doesn't look so good the other way. How did Jonathan Rea do with his tomorrow? And he was given the competitive equipment. I'm not trying to take away from Rea here, I think he did really well all things considered, but I think we take for granted how hard these bikes (and tires) really are to ride.





2) Nowhere in my post did I state mechanics and crew chiefs are no longer important or relevant, they clearly still are. I think it should stay that way.



3) I got nothin'. Can't argue with that. I actually don't have a problem with a spec ecu. I'd prefer none, but that's not going to happen and I've accepted that.



4) Actually I am paying for it. I'm sending my dollars to MotoGP to watch the racing. Pretty clear cut.



Honda can figure out how to get 150mpg out of a moped on their own time. Give 'em 26+ Liters or .... off. Same goes for reliability. Run those CBR600RR motors to death on a bench. The heart of the RC213v only has to make it 70 or so miles. Those two rules are thinly veiled attempts at driving competitors out of the sport, neither of them have anything to do with who made the fastest bike.



And just between you and me, the vast majority of guys on Liter bikes out there aren't going to benefit from the trickle down electronics for two reasons.



i) Not enough talent to even take the bike there.

ii) Rider aids being nullified by risk compensation.
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Thanks for the quality response.
 
Zootalaws said:
Technics killed Sony on VHS v Betamax... sales figures really don't have much to do with the 'best'.



Honda has a lot of sales outlets, many programs and incentives to get bikes out the door.



You won't get a Ducati dealership without at least a $1M spend on branding. Aprilia's cost a lot to make. BMWs are 'exclusive' and dealerships require a massive investment in equipment and training.



I don't think Honda's 1000cc street bike sales figures have any relevance to MotoGP, except that it is a massive, world-wide advertising campaign for Honda. They aren't going to give that up in a hurry.
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I was going to argue that the economic benefit of gp bike racing for the manufacturers doesn't bear close analysis, but birdman's post brought me up short and led me to the same point, it is hard to believe that their sportsbike being the topseller despite them not having applied any of their recent motogp technology to the current bike is not partly related to the cachet/advertising provided by their motogp activities, and if the halo extends to absolute enthusiasts who buy sports bikes it doubtless spreads further. The other factors you mention also apply, dealer network, established reputation for durability, ease of ownership/use etc.
 
Mental Anarchist said:
Explain to me how spec ECU will create growth and progress?



In my opinion growth and progress comes from looking for ways to beat your competitor.



The world is changing. It is moving towards heavily electronically controlled mechanics. This is where the MSMA were heading and Dorna is pulling them back. The reason the other potential competitors fell off or failed to turn up is because of the constant rule changes and the blatant manipulations to ensure the superstar kept winning. The lack of fairness in the sport has nothing to do with the MSMA innovating and progressing. It has to do with the politics of governance, marketing and euro centric dominance.
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A spec ECU is not progress, but it does help the sport die more slowly. It might transition the sport to privateer racing teams (like McLaren) in the long run.



You can't compare technologies across multiple economic systems simply b/c it allows you to make a point. In the consumer marketplace, companies are required to earn profit, which is a form of oversimplified progress (but progress none the less). MotoGP is not a profitable activity for the participants, and the mercantile incentives for the competitors generally put the sport on unstable footing. Dorna are not dragging anyone backwards b/c progress doesn't happen if the sport collapses on itself and no sustainable business model is ever created.



I don't want a spec ECU, but the people who wish to avoid a spec ECU (the MSMA) need to pull their heads out. The spec ECU exists as a proposal b/c the MSMA are not managing the rulebook properly.
 
Zootalaws said:
Technics killed Sony on VHS v Betamax... sales figures really don't have much to do with the 'best'.



Honda has a lot of sales outlets, many programs and incentives to get bikes out the door.



You won't get a Ducati dealership without at least a $1M spend on branding. Aprilia's cost a lot to make. BMWs are 'exclusive' and dealerships require a massive investment in equipment and training.



I don't think Honda's 1000cc street bike sales figures have any relevance to MotoGP, except that it is a massive, world-wide advertising campaign for Honda. They aren't going to give that up in a hurry.
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Certainly sales figures in high volume consumables like detergent have less to do with 'best' and more to do with price, convenience, availability etc etc. But in reality Honda are neither the best nor the cheapest sportbike yet they sell a lot of them. Brand loyalty is the key. They only need to maintain the perception of quality and the same buyers will keep returning. If motogp helps that perception job done.



Personally I almost never buy from Honda because I figure the competition offers more for less to compete. Its a highly competitive segment and as a consumer I feel like I win, so I dont hold any resentment towards the manufacturers.



By comparison in 'choosing' my motogp subscription I only see DORNA. I see all attempts of competition such as youtube quickly squashed, I see my favorite rider give the finger, and read Rossi tweets describing motogp as boring, I see them fail to expand the product etc etc etc.



Therefore I would support the manufacturers walking and setting up their own series if it came to that.
 
So, will Honda build a GP bike for sale to any and all teams, or pull the plug and let Repsol join the CRT ranks?

Moto GP gets stranger every year.

Dorna is playing chicken with MSMA and WSKB may be the winner.

Moto3 and Moto2 are good TV, but GP, not so much.
 
I may be wrong, but my gut feeling says the CBR1000RR is nowhere near the top selling 1000cc sportbike. Just from what i see on the road, and at large bike gatherings, i would guess R1, BMW 1000RR, GSXR 1000 [not last few years} but the last 10.
 
tphil said:
So, will Honda build a GP bike for sale to any and all teams, or pull the plug and let Repsol join the CRT ranks?

Moto GP gets stranger every year.

Dorna is playing chicken with MSMA and WSKB may be the winner.

Moto3 and Moto2 are good TV, but GP, not so much.
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See the other thread. They are building a new sportsbike with lots of motogp derived technology which may also be the basis for a more serious tilt at wsbk.
 
I think one buys Honda sportbikes not because of their cutting edge tech but because of their bulletproof rep and brand loyalty or a niche that no other manufacturer has.
 
birdman said:
Certainly sales figures in high volume consumables like detergent have less to do with 'best' and more to do with price, convenience, availability etc etc. But in reality Honda are neither the best nor the cheapest sportbike yet they sell a lot of them. Brand loyalty is the key. They only need to maintain the perception of quality and the same buyers will keep returning. If motogp helps that perception job done.



Personally I almost never buy from Honda because I figure the competition offers more for less to compete. Its a highly competitive segment and as a consumer I feel like I win, so I dont hold any resentment towards the manufacturers.



By comparison in 'choosing' my motogp subscription I only see DORNA. I see all attempts of competition such as youtube quickly squashed, I see my favorite rider give the finger, and read Rossi tweets describing motogp as boring, I see them fail to expand the product etc etc etc.



Therefore I would support the manufacturers walking and setting up their own series if it came to that.
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Apart from a liking for trousering large sanctioning fees from the odd oil sheik, I would have to say dorna are more altruistic than you would expect from a bunch of venture capitalists, and I think they have mostly been well intentioned, as would the spec ecu be because I don't have much doubt the current structure is unsustainable, financially and otherwise. It is their competence I would question, both at devising (doubtless with assistance from the msma) tech regs, and at promoting the sport as is mental anarchist's view.



I believe selling off the sport to venture capitalists was the wrong way to go in the first place, and I blame the FIM for not keeping control of the sport; perhaps there might have been a better chance of the FIM controlling the MSMA as at least theoretically a more disinterested sporting body rather than a bunch of venture capitalists trying to make money out of a show the manufacturers doubtless see themselves as providing.



I would be happy with a smaller show myself. I was quite happy with the sport the way it was in the 80s, the extra media coverage of practice and qualifying is nice but the races themselves were no less enjoyable with the more primitive TV coverage then, and in some periods much more enjoyable.



I personally can't see them keeping motogp going as the premier series while transitioning to a more F1 like model with independent teams like mclaren, williams, red bull etc; that has always been part of the tradition of F1 but not really in premier class gp bike racing, in terms of such teams having significant success anyway. Cutting the costs of competition for the current competitors and reducing the barriers, both financial and the more ridiculously exotic elements of the technology required to be competitive, to the entry of new teams seems reasonable.
 
Mick D said:
I think one buys Honda sportbikes not because of their cutting edge tech but because of their bulletproof rep and brand loyalty or a niche that no other manufacturer has.
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I have brought a new Honda sportsbike. Order of importance to me was: reliability, performance, price and the dealer perks: free servicing and national road side assist for 12 months.



Granted you could get a similar deal elsewhere, but Hondas go and go and go... My 06 CBR600RR has done 130,000 plus and the only thing needing replacing aside from tyres pads and liquids was the cam chain tensioner which was replaced by Honda FOC as it was the first to fail in Australia.

 
What's the ideal formula? I don't know much, but powerslide is a great school. Here's my thoughts.

Weight limit: ??

Capacity : Up to 1000cc

# Cylinders: what ever you want

Unlimited/limited fuel: unlimited

ECU: Nil launch control, limited TC, limited anti wheelie. I don't know how one would police these parameters.

Tyres: Free choice of compounds and manufacturers. No SNS.





Team selection: minus the rider, salary capped to provide opportunity for lesser teams to "poach" personnel. EDIT: this is a stupid idea.
 
Just had a thought...



Let's say Honda throws a fit over the speck ECU, packs up it's toys and heads over to WSBK. Oh ...., motogp is in trouble....but what about this? What if Honda leaving makes Suzuki, BMW, Aprillia, Kawasaki, etc. think "hey, those ........ are gone now, I'm heading back to the party", and rejoin MGP? It could be a good thing. Honda eventually come back realising that WSBK isn't going to let them write the rulebook either.
 

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