So, Just how bad is??

Exactly how wrong have Honda got this 800 thing?

I was having a think today during practice, Haydens got no feel from his bike, Nakanos fallen off the front end of his way too many times already. Checa is just riding around slower than most, and melandris lost the front twice just today and has resorted to 2006 forks amongst the same complaints as the others. Elias is doing ok but i feel the Bridgestone tires are doing him some favours. That leaves us with Honda most successful rider this year - Mr Pedrosa, who i think may be performng way better than the results would appear.

Looking at the results today and thinking back over the winter, it seems that Yamaha, Ducati and Suzuki are definately on the fast side of Honda, and just how far behind are Kawasaki because after OJ's times today i wonder if Honda are coming in nearly last overall.

The problem seems BIG, i think all things considered the Honda is the 4th best bike of the 5 factories out there, and that is unacceptable. So all credit to Pedrosa, and massive worry and disapointment for the rest. It certainly isn't helping when the riders are struggling to adapt their styles like Hayden is and i think Nakano would be doing far better if he stuck with Bridgestone tires, but with so many riders struggling i would say the problem lies with HRC


SORT IT OUT HONDA

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 20 2007, 10:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Exactly how wrong have Honda got this 800 thing?

I was having a think today during practice, Haydens got no feel from his bike, Nakanos fallen off the front end of his way too many times already. Checa is just riding around slower than most, and melandris lost the front twice just today and has resorted to 2006 forks amongst the same complaints as the others. Elias is doing ok but i feel the Bridgestone tires are doing him some favours. That leaves us with Honda most successful rider this year - Mr Pedrosa, who i think may be performng way better than the results would appear.

Looking at the results today and thinking back over the winter, it seems that Yamaha, Ducati and Suzuki are definately on the fast side of Honda, and just how far behind are Kawasaki because after OJ's times today i wonder if Honda are coming in nearly last overall.

The problem seems BIG, i think all things considered the Honda is the 4th best bike of the 5 factories out there, and that is unacceptable. So all credit to Pedrosa, and massive worry and disapointment for the rest. It certainly isn't helping when the riders are struggling to adapt their styles like Hayden is and i think Nakano would be doing far better if he stuck with Bridgestone tires, but with so many riders struggling i would say the problem lies with HRC
SORT IT OUT HONDA

Well, I think that they're sorting it out as time goes by. They'll be alright after a few rounds because it's Honda we're talking about. The huge company!!
On a more serious note though, I thought Hayden was meant to be developing the 800 last year and that was his excuse when he didn't do well.. or am I being stupid? Anyway, Pedrosa's done quite well these past two races, but then again, he's got the same amount of points as Stoner, who is on a Ducati. It did actually get me thinking about this topic when I was watching the practise, that Barros was flying round the corners and all of the Hondas were letting him by because they were going sooo slow. I remember watching Dani going to the side as Alex was passing and I was so confused, usually it's someone on a D'Antin that lets the Honda go by The Alex's did well though.. which was weird because Hofmann was doing very well. I don't usually see him at the top

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Louise @ Apr 20 2007, 10:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well, I think that they're sorting it out as time goes by. They'll be alright after a few rounds because it's Honda we're talking about. The huge company!!
On a more serious note though, I thought Hayden was meant to be developing the 800 last year and that was his excuse when he didn't do well.. or am I being stupid?

Yes, Honda are a serious force and they will sort it out, but it might be too late for this year. Also i agree that Danis results have actualy been very impressive so far, but is he actually riding harder than the results show?

And as for Hayden developing the 800 last year, thats a load of rubbish really. A lot of people are convinced that hayden was developing a new bike for Pedrosa last year, but actually he was riding a bike designed to beat yamahas 990,and it worked.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 20 2007, 11:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yes, Honda are a serious force and they will sort it out, but it might be too late for this year. Also i agree that Danis results have actualy been very impressive so far, but is he actually riding harder than the results show?
Dani for sure did a great job so far. Definitely better than Nicky, but I think Dani has the number 1 status in the team, eventhough Hayden won the title last season. I personally think they are more focused on Pedrosa. He's also the more talented one, I guess that's why.

I'm positive Honda will sort it out, after all they do think they're great!!
That's why Rossi left Honda if I'm correct, at Honda they felt superior, they thought they were so much bigger than a driver (Rossi in this case). Glad he proved them wrong!!!!

Anyway, I'm sure we gonna see Honda (especially Dani) on the podium often this season, the question is, will they win races?? I have a feeling Dani will definitely win a race (or maybe more).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 20 2007, 10:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Exactly how wrong have Honda got this 800 thing?
The problem seems BIG, i think all things considered the Honda is the 4th best bike of the 5 factories out there, and that is unacceptable.

The honda is better than the suzuki coz otherwise Vermeulen would be beating Nicky. If any rider is outperforming the bike he has it is John Hopkins (apart from fall at Jerez) and not Pedrosa.

Compare Honda to last year:

Pedrosa - still strong
Hayden - same as second half of last year
Melandri and Elias have basically swapped around.
Nakano - as bad as Tamada
Checa - other than today is doing well beating Nicky like Stoner did last year when he didnt fall off.

This year:

The Ducati is quicker than the Honda.
The Yamaha is better cornering than the Honda.

But the Honda is a good overall package, it is faster down the straight than the yamaha, although pretty much all the bikes are!

The best factory bikes in order:

1. Ducati
2. Yamaha
3. Honda
4. Suzuki
5. Kawasaki

I notice you are a Melandri fan are you looking for a reason for his lowsy results or do you actually think the honda is almost as bad as the kawasaki.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Valentino Is God @ Apr 20 2007, 10:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The honda is better than the suzuki coz otherwise Vermeulen would be beating Nicky. If any rider is outperforming the bike he has it is John Hopkins (apart from fall at Jerez) and not Pedrosa.

The Suzuki was the fastest bike all through testing, and still shows that it is almost as good as the Yamaha and Ducati this year. CV is getting beaten because he isn't riding well enough yet but soon i think he will get a bit stronger, he is still relitively new to grand prix riding remember.

As for Melandri, i think an issue of his is that he doesn't ride so well if he has even a small problem with his bike setup. We saw that being his weakness alst year and not much has changed, plus his style hasn't transfered perfectly to the 800's because he is particularly aggressive. But ultimately he is having the same problems that ALL the honda riders are having, and thats more than a coincidence.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Valentino Is God @ Apr 20 2007, 10:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I notice you are a Melandri fan are you looking for a reason for his lowsy results or do you actually think the honda is almost as bad as the kawasaki.

I struggle to believe that OJ is so good that he could ride that fast against people on significantly superior bikes. Its only day one i know, but i still think Honda are in trouble.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 20 2007, 11:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I struggle to believe that OJ is so good that he could ride that fast against people on significantly superior bikes. Its only day one i know, but i still think Honda are in trouble.

To be honest i think that it is the bridgestone tyres that are the crucial thing this weekend so far. That is why only the ducati is better than the suzuki and the kawasaki and is also why honda and yamaha also are in trouble.

After Free practise 2 by tyre make:

1. B
2. B
3. B
4. M
5. B
6. B
7. B
8. B
9. M
10. B
11. M
12. B
13. B
14. M
15. M
16. M
17. D
18. M
19. D

10 OF THE TOP 13 ARE ON BRIDGESTONES!!!

I feel sorry for all the Honda riders (except Pedrosa). With all the the post about how people miss the 990's, I'd say to the 800's!!! The down fall of Honda in GP!!! I'm glad it's biting them in the ...!!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Traverser @ Apr 21 2007, 03:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I feel sorry for all the Honda riders (except Pedrosa). With all the the post about how people miss the 990's, I'd say to the 800's!!! The down fall of Honda in GP!!! I'm glad it's biting them in the ...!!!

As a honda fan i must admit i am not enjoying myself. Most of all i really feel sorry for Nakano and Checa who thought they would finally be in with a fighting chance.

Pedrosa is performing miracles, and it will eventually pay off.

I kind of find it strange that Pedrosa's the only Honda rider without any issues.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Electric Mofo @ Apr 21 2007, 04:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I kind of find it strange that Pedrosa's the only Honda rider without any issues.

Firstly, i'm not surprised he is the best of them so far given the situation. And secondly, i think its not that he doesn't have any issues, its more that hes just getting on with riding it because he isn't the type to spend much time with the press.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 21 2007, 10:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Firstly, i'm not surprised he is the best of them so far given the situation. And secondly, i think its not that he doesn't have any issues, its more that hes just getting on with riding it because he isn't the type to spend much time with the press.

I’m not sure about this ‘Press’ note of yours Tom, hasn’t Hayden done more laps on it than Pedrosa in order to get the hang of it. I would analyze whose the one that has put more laps into it more than interviews time!

Maybe it's just me, but it seems pretty obvious why the Honda sucks.........the new bike was designed by Pedrosa for Pedrosa. If you're not a horse jockey you can't ride it.

Pedro is probably used to having no feel in the bike, because he's minus 50lbs on everyone in the field he's probably not heavy enough to change suspension load when he jumps around on the thing (okay probably overstated but he's tiny).

On the new Honda, if you're over 5 ft. tall you can't tuck in. If you're over 12" wide you get wind blast on your hands, elbows, and shoulders.

Weren't all the conspiracy theorists screaming that 800cc limit was Honda's doing as well because it killed point-and-shoot and made I-4's (yamaha) irrelevant (in theory). In addition all Honda had to do to make an 800cc machine was lop a cylinder off the back of the V-5 (in theory).

It's very clear to me the new RC is a purpose built machine. To make Pedrosa the world champion for the next decade--others be damned. It's going to be interesting to see how many of their riders continue to believe the BS. We know they've probably lost Melandri if they don't make changes and it seems Hayden might jump ship if he doesn't let nostalgia make his decisions.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 21 2007, 04:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Maybe it's just me, but it seems pretty obvious why the Honda sucks.........the new bike was designed by Pedrosa for Pedrosa. If you're not a horse jockey you can't ride it.

Pedro is probably used to having no feel in the bike, because he's minus 50lbs on everyone in the field he's probably not heavy enough to change suspension load when he jumps around on the thing (okay probably overstated but he's tiny).

On the new Honda, if you're over 5 ft. tall you can't tuck in. If you're over 12" wide you get wind blast on your hands, elbows, and shoulders.

Weren't all the conspiracy theorists screaming that 800cc limit was Honda's doing as well because it killed point-and-shoot and made I-4's (yamaha) irrelevant (in theory). In addition all Honda had to do to make an 800cc machine was lop a cylinder off the back of the V-5 (in theory).

It's very clear to me the new RC is a purpose built machine. To make Pedrosa the world champion for the next decade--others be damned. It's going to be interesting to see how many of their riders continue to believe the BS. We know they've probably lost Melandri if they don't make changes and it seems Hayden might jump ship if he doesn't let nostalgia make his decisions.

Thats a load of rubbish, the new bike isn't significantly smaller than the old one, it just looks it. The fairing was an issue, but the bigger riders (hayden and Checa) have been supplied with more coverage. Honda would not make a bike just for one rider, if that was their intention they certainly wouldnt fund 6 bikes.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Apr 21 2007, 04:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I’m not sure about this ‘Press’ note of yours Tom, hasn’t Hayden done more laps on it than Pedrosa in order to get the hang of it. I would analyze whose the one that has put more laps into it more than interviews time!


That is a fair point, but can be considered equally negligable considering that it is sometimes said nicky does too many laps when he is testing. It might just be Danis working style to change the bike more and try diffrerent stuff rather than doing laps forever and trying to come to terms with what hes got. I think if dani was really having a trouble free time with the new bike he would be going faster than he has been.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 21 2007, 04:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Thats a load of rubbish, the new bike isn't significantly smaller than the old one, it just looks it. The fairing was an issue, but the bigger riders (hayden and Checa) have been supplied with more coverage. Honda would not make a bike just for one rider, if that was their intention they certainly wouldnt fund 6 bikes.



Rossi goes to Yamaha and they build a bike for him. He takes the Motogp championship away from Honda in 2004.

A tiny young Spaniard shows up on a Spanish sponsored Honda team and all of a sudden the seat gets moved forward and the fairings get chopped down. The current world champ is among the riders who don't fit on the bike. What team designs a bike that their development rider can't even fit on?

What do you need to believe the bike was designed for Pedrosa? A hand-written note from the director of HRC explaining the congruency between the cockpit's dimensions and Pedrosa's dimensions are more than coincidence?

It's not a matter of whether or not HRC built the bike for Pedrosa and Pedrosa alone. Personally, I highly doubt they did. Sure, the 212 has characterstics that suit a riding style similar to the one Pedrosa incorporates but that has been the consensus across the board, at every factory.

Fact is, Honda have got it wrong. Pedrosa is riding out of his mind and earning podium places and Elias appears to be finding some success with the new bike. But outside of those two, there isn't a single Honda rider who is having success. Melandri and Hayden have both reverted to forks that are a year old, I'm assuming stripped from 211s. That's a bad sign.

As far as I'm concerned, Honda will have to go back to the drawing board for 2008. I know we are only at the third round of the season and there are two riders consistently competitive. But when the defending world champion, a regular championship contender and two riders who are no slouches cannot break the top ten on a regular basis, it's clear. The bike doesn't work.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Apr 21 2007, 12:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It's not a matter of whether or not HRC built the bike for Pedrosa and Pedrosa alone. Personally, I highly doubt they did. Sure, the 212 has characterstics that suit a riding style similar to the one Pedrosa incorporates but that has been the consensus across the board, at every factory.

Fact is, Honda have got it wrong. Pedrosa is riding out of his mind and earning podium places and Elias appears to be finding some success with the new bike. But outside of those two, there isn't a single Honda rider who is having success. Melandri and Hayden have both reverted to forks that are a year old, I'm assuming stripped from 211s. That's a bad sign.

As far as I'm concerned, Honda will have to go back to the drawing board for 2008. I know we are only at the third round of the season and there are two riders consistently competitive. But when the defending world champion, a regular championship contender and two riders who are no slouches cannot break the top ten on a regular basis, it's clear. The bike doesn't work.

All these years of having the most wanted by many riders bike on the grid makes it all more painful, doesn’t it? All those times they said ‘it’s not about the rider, it’s the bike that matters’… ok, so now ‘it’s the bike that matters!’

By the way, I have a CBR600 F4, which is 7 years old, great Honda machinery, and still get lots of fun with it, meaning I like Honda products. But in MotoGP I think in the last years they’ve tried to apply crappy politics for their benefit so it’s just all getting back at their heads for now.

They are the only team who have began this era with a brand new concept of a motorcycle and that, coupled with supplying more bikes than any other factory is straining them quite tight. I just hope that they can leanr a lot and use it to their advantage in the future

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Apr 21 2007, 09:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>All these years of having the most wanted by many riders bike on the grid makes it all more painful, doesn’t it? All those times they said ‘it’s not about the rider, it’s the bike that matters’… ok, so now ‘it’s the bike that matters!’

I think it makes it both more painful and very much a shock that they are having such trouble. But i still think riders make the difference, evidence supporting that would be the heroic performance od Dani this year.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 21 2007, 05:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>

Rossi goes to Yamaha and they build a bike for him. He takes the Motogp championship away from Honda in 2004.

A tiny young Spaniard shows up on a Spanish sponsored Honda team and all of a sudden the seat gets moved forward and the fairings get chopped down. The current world champ is among the riders who don't fit on the bike. What team designs a bike that their development rider can't even fit on?

What do you need to believe the bike was designed for Pedrosa? A hand-written note from the director of HRC explaining the congruency between the cockpit's dimensions and Pedrosa's dimensions are more than coincidence?

The bike was designed based on the thoughts that every factory had coming into the 800cc era. It was focus on smaller bikes with higher corner speed, manouverability and faster direction changes. Honda took this and tried to make the ultimate version of it knowing that they had many riders with strong 250cc racing backgrounds, including the Amazing Dani Pedrosa. Overall it would have been very un-honda and very poor logic, to enter the new era with a big bike based on a 990 and built only for Hayden. So yes Dani fits well on the bike, but so do most of the riders out there and most of the up and coming riders, except the particularly broad shouldered and big framed, and they have been given the protection they need to compensate.

I think the new Honda is just very new, not very bad. Some riders have complained about the front (Nicky, Marco & Shinya) 2 of them long time 250cc riders so I don't think it's a case of bike desing not suiting their style.

The only thing they have all unanimously complained is lack of power and that's something I bet HRC will soon solve (I expect).

IMO the Honda is the bike with more potential, it's just a case of hanging on there now and trying to test as much as possible to find a good setup, and wait till HRC makes the parts and makes the bike fully competitive.
It should be the best bike by the end of the season.

I think you make a very good point Teo, this bike is much younger than the others and honda needs time to iron out its problems, in time it should imporve more than other bikes do.