Should the likes of Checa get a penalty?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Apr 7 2008, 12:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What do you guys think about penalty in cases like the Checa crash?
He takes out Neukirchner, the race leader, in a hpless attempt to pass him, picks up his bike and end at 5th, wasn't it, while the previous leader are out without points and a broken bone.
Should there be a penalty?
It looked dangerous and stupid, and on the face of it a penalty like suspension for at least one race would seem apposite. In practice, I guess he can always argue he made an honest error, he lost it under braking etc., and in other circumstances this might be true.

I say no. checa made very clean passes on other riders during that race, dutch commentators couldn't stop talking about how 'clean' he did it, and how much they miss the 'rudeness of passing in WSBK' in checa's style. he's not an agressive rider. checa was obviously much faster and when he reached the rear wheel of neukirncher, I think you can always expect a racer to make a move to win. just like Ronald ten Kate says: in that situation, you can expect a move, or even an attempt to make a move, of a true racer. it's racing, and it's sad for neukirchner.

what I did found weird is that checa did let off the fireworks, while 1) he knocked of neukirchner and it felt wrong and 2) he wasn't even the best spaniard of the grid in that race.

I think it was a fair move, that ended badly. Wouldn't like to see penalties imposed, riders may not take chances to pass, if they thought they may get penalised, and that would affect the racing.

Really, I wouldn't like to see penalties imposed. Checa ran a great race till then and yes it was bad luck for MN but that's racing. We start getting into dangerous territory when every racing incident can end up with a penalty.

No, this is what I love about Superbike, there are so many riders and a lot of crashes you dont get from GP. Checa had a GREAT amazing comeback, he passed two other riders on that same turn, so why not try instead of coming back all that way for second

No! If riders had to worry about getting some sort of penalty if they caused a crash they may be disinclined to make an attempt to pass, which is bad for racing. Also, do we really want judges making arbitrary decisions about racing incidents and assigning points deductions or something? You know what other sport has judges who make arbitrary and subjective decisions related to points? FIGURE SKATING. You want Superbike to become like FIGURE SKATING? I rest my case.

Both of the Valencia races were great to watch and I was really impressed with Checa, the man has a serious desire to win. He had just barely got close enough to Max N. on that last corner, and honestly from my perspective it seemed not close enough for a pass. Im sure the hunger for a hometown win was on his mind so he decides to just throw it in there. Also from my perspective it seems he was the one at fault, the one that lost it and was out of control at that moment, thus taking out Max. Totally sucks for Max, but I agree with the others, that unless it was an intentionally aggressive move to take someone out, then bringing in some form of penalty will set a precedent.

This crash reminded me of one last year with Haga being taken out by Max Biaggi in the last corner of a race (can't remember which race, Misano?). That particular crash would have been hard to find who was to blame as each seemed to be coming into each others line. Sucked for Haga because those lost points you could argue cost him the championship.

There are a lot of aggressive passers in WSBK, Xaus, Haga, Biaggi to some extent and now Checa. It's no wonder JT was viewed as an aggressive passer at Jerez, coming from racing with these guys.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Marijke @ Apr 7 2008, 06:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>what I did found weird is that checa did let off the fireworks, while 1) he knocked of neukirchner and it felt wrong and 2) he wasn't even the best spaniard of the grid in that race.

I found that a bit inappropriate as well, but looked like Checa was sucked into the fans celebration and he just may not have wanted to offend them. After that corner incident, he should of headed into the garage.

no...a racing incident. that simple.

No way. Racing Incident.

one more for no

although I probably wouldn't pick up my bike and continue (not to mention fireworks), but not that I blame him for doing that.

I think he should not have been able to receive any points. Checa came in way to hot and couldn't even start to make the turn he needlessly took out the leaded. Hes a professional and should have a pretty dam clear idea if he can over take and pass a rider with out blastin through like a FREAKIN MANIC. Max ran a clean race from the start and didn't deserve a sucker punch

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (giXXerRicK @ Apr 11 2008, 06:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think he should not have been able to receive any points. Checa came in way to hot and couldn't even start to make the turn he needlessly took out the leaded. Hes a professional and should have a pretty dam clear idea if he can over take and pass a rider with out blastin through like a FREAKIN MANIC. Max ran a clean race from the start and didn't deserve a sucker punch

Think of all the moves in the past that would have resulted in steward intervention if moves like this were punnishable. The riders would quickly become affraid of racing in close proximity in case one of them made a mistake like this.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 11 2008, 10:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Think of all the moves in the past that would have resulted in steward intervention if moves like this were punnishable. The riders would quickly become affraid of racing in close proximity in case one of them made a mistake like this.
I actually think it was a ridiculous and stupid move. But I agree with you that in practice the line between this and a reasonable attempt at a pass is too blurred for it not to be detrimental for sanctions to be applied. It obviously wasn't a deliberate attempt to take neukirchner out.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Apr 11 2008, 10:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I actually think it was a ridiculous and stupid move. But I agree with you that in practice the line between this and a reasonable attempt at a pass is too blurred for it not to be detrimental for sanctions to be applied. It obviously wasn't a deliberate attempt to take neukirchner out.

Yea thats just it

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Apr 7 2008, 04:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What do you guys think about penalty in cases like the Checa crash?
He takes out Neukirchner, the race leader, in a hpless attempt to pass him, picks up his bike and end at 5th, wasn't it, while the previous leader are out without points and a broken bone.
Should there be a penalty?

YES. Absolutely! All of you saying no, and characterizing it as a mere "racing incident”; I guess believe there is NEVER a move that is reckless abandon and a serious danger to other riders to be penalized. If ever there was a move that should be penalized, this one is on a very short list. It seems that if it happens in a race then forever we are to believe it was a simple "racing incident"! Well then when is it NOT??? Its not about stifling aggression, its about safety and responsible professionalism. I always hear many of those saying "no" here crying out for rider "safety" but I guess that doesn't extent to actual racers!?.

Checa is the most experienced man on the grid. He is a veteran. He was in Spain, and he made a move that was desperate and resulted in rider who had ridden the race of his life to pay for that selfish loss of self-control. Yes, he was coming up the field, but time and track ran out, is is also a reality of racing he did not accept. And so what, we are suppose to cheer him on? WTF. (Perhaps some here can find it was Max N’s fault, why not, its been proposed before; yeah I know ‘ridiculous’—just as ridiculous to say it was a simple “racing incident”). He of most would know this, but he didn't care and got caught up in the moment. This caused serious injury and harm to Max N. This is NOT A RACING INCIDENT BUT RATHER AN IRRESPONSIBLE RECKLESS ACT OF PRIDE TO IMPRESS AT HOME!

I don’t think it was a deliberate attempt to take Max out, but then again, neither is manslaughter. Yet there are consequences to be applied. Is a rider never ‘negligent’ enough to convince anybody on here that the rider needs to be sectioned or held accountable?????

Oh, and his post race celebration was extremely rude! What a piece of ..... NO RESPECT!




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Apr 7 2008, 05:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If such a ruling is applied I think it is important that the incident and fault is quite clear. It would be sad if every other crash sould be investigated, but in this case I think a penalty would be at place. That said I see no signs of protest or investigation so maybe MN didn't even file a prostest.

Babel, I am a little confused, please elaborate a bit. (I think I agree with you but want to be sure).


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Apr 7 2008, 05:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But then again, the best man allways win. The results are the only measure of that. Right Tom?


To be fair though, this is suppose to even itself out in an entire season. But of course that doesn't happen if there is serious injury, ie Max N, and Cappi 06.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Apr 11 2008, 10:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>YES. Absolutely!

If a rider makes an error while trying to pass which knocks another rider down he should be peanalized because it is dangerous and irresponsible?

If a rider makes an error while not trying to pass and another rider is knocked down as a result is that different?

I've been watching this post run, as some folks will remember, I got a fair bit o stick last year for accusing Elias of stupidity on track, (and naming him Scud!) so I thought I'd hang fire a bit.

Reading through the posts, the thing that rings very true with me, is that Checa is not a rookie, but he rode like a total .... on this occasion. Home track desperation definately springs to mind, who remembers Foggy with his feet down on the Cagiva at Donington in 93 because it was obvious Mackenzie was about to pass him? Evidently, he had his feet down because he "ran out of petrol", although even his team manager said that was funny as he managed a slowing down lap without running out. He couldnt bear getting punted off the podium, made worse by another Brit (Scot actually ) putting him back to 4th!

Elias (good ol' Scuddy) was an over enthusiastic young guy, out to make his mark, he went too far on occasion, and did some stupid ...., Checa is an experienced rider, who has seen what can happen. He got his GP ride after Puig's air fence incident, (...... horrific if you saw it,) was riding at the time of Doohan's career ending injuries, Katoh's horror crash, and plenty other stuff. He knew the risks, and went for it. Infuriatingly, (like the drunk driver everyone has heard of), he got up and walked away. Max, who had kicked his arse, and was probably slowing down to make the finish safely, caught the crap.

I love bike racing, and understand the gladitorial element, but if Max had ended up as the next Wayne or Dajiro would we all be saying it's a racing accident?

A rider of Carlos's age and experience should know better, in GP, he would have got a kick from Stoner or a slap from Hopper afterwards for getting too close during qualifying, nevermind twatting someone into casualty.

What's the answer? .... knows, I'm just sayin I get ...... off when someone's stupidity causes ..... like this.

Pete