Should Paul Butler Resign

my opinion..



If you run up to a fallen rider and he cant move on his own or speak or give you any inclination of his condition...you DO NOT TOUCH him till a Doctor arrives...Red Flag.

I'm sorry, haven't read entire threads. But are there people saying this should not have been a red flag?



At Indy, they threw a red flag when Roger Lee was involved in a first turn crash. I felt it was done in part to get him back into the race. This was many times worse, and not red flag. Did anybody watch the WSBK races, they had a guy on the track with the "Doctor" bales on track, they took their time throwing the red flag but did in the end. I seriously doubt Tomizawa was conscience, in which case he shouldn't have been moved in haste. Its really not even debatable, this was a red flag situation. (Again, I haven't really read through all the threads as I've been busy, but are people saying this should not have been a red flag? Or is it another thing being debated?)



Anyway, its all been very tragic and I feel bad for the family, and our sport.



Edit: Paul Butler should not be given the chance to resign, he should have been fired. Even if it was a brain freeze on his part and regrets his decision, its just not acceptable. But who's gonna fire him if he is surrounded by like minded people. Dorna is broke, one resignation won't fix that, you gotta fix the culture of Dorna, good luck with that.

Jumkie said:

I'm sorry, haven't read entire threads. But are there people saying this should not have been a red flag?



At Indy, they threw a red flag when Roger Lee was involved in a first turn crash. I felt it was done in part to get him back into the race. This was many times worse, and not red flag. Did anybody watch the WSBK races, they had a guy on the track with the "Doctor" bales on track, they took their time throwing the red flag but did in the end. I seriously doubt Tomizawa was conscience, in which case he shouldn't have been moved in haste. Its really not even debatable, this was a red flag situation. (Again, I haven't really read through all the threads as I've been busy, but are people saying this should not have been a red flag? Or is it another thing being debated?)



Anyway, its all been very tragic and I feel bad for the family, and our sport.



Edit: Paul Butler should not be given the chance to resign, he should have been fired. Even if it was a brain freeze on his part and regrets his decision, its just not acceptable. But who's gonna fire him if he is surrounded by like minded people. Dorna is broke, one resignation won't fix that, you gotta fix the culture of Dorna, good luck with that.

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+1000

Amen

xx CURVE xx said:

my opinion..



If you run up to a fallen rider and he cant move on his own or speak or give you any inclination of his condition...you DO NOT TOUCH him till a Doctor arrives...Red Flag.

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Are you people blind or pissed or stoned or what!!



There was at least TWO medico's there working on him frantically!!! very soon after the accident.



DO you really think they would have applied the very "laymans first aid" of "don't move the patient" if their years of training/and instinct told them that this was not a time for "don't move the patient". You are suggesting that they stand there and watch him die!! in spite of them knowing just exactly what they must try desperately to do.



And to there immense credit they appeared to risk their own lives and do just that!! They didn't wait for the convention or rule or time waste of a RED FLAG, they appeared to be trying desperately to maintain the life of Shoya Tomizawa.



Sadly Tomizawa was in this stage, probably the moment the other bikes hit him at such high speed ..... :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_death

read it and see why they looked so desperate to get him to the ambo.!!



Time is desperate in seconds when its that bad, not minutes ...... waiting for the Red Flag rule to be applied. ( Mind you I think it should have been red flagged anyway ) but I applaud the actions of the medics and marshals on site, who vetoed convention/rule and thought of Tomizawa only. I hope there could allways be such Marshals and Medics at any race meet.

People are asking Questions about this to the press TV reporters MCN etc it's gone eerily quiet ppl arnt getting answers

that tells me they know what we all saw and maybe its getting talked about behind the scenes there's a few articles

one on reuters i think and one i posted on the other thread.Asking about motogp after indy & misano



elsewhere one post from a present day rider.

I've had more than 50 replies agreeing with the disgraceful actions of the marshals,



Made me so angry to see both Scott and Shoya being rushed onto a stretcher by those foolish marshals.

They were incredibly wreckless.



says it all to me.

I voted no,



There were 2 doctors behind the safety barrier,

Do not move a patient is for people that don't know what they are doing.

For the marshals to move Tomi quickly to the doctors within one minute was the only sane thing to do.

Red Flag would have delayed the doctor's response.



There were no dangers to other riders, the track was cleaned before the riders came back to that section, so no red flag was warranted.



If Tomi would have survived, this thread wouldn't exist.

It is easy to point fingers when all the cards are laid down.



I think it was a good call and Butler should not resigned..





RIP #48

100% kicked to the curb, the race should have been red flagged, the treatment of the riders was shocking, first off they shouldn't have been moved like that, Redding was thrown on the stretcher like a rag doll, and I was gobsmacked when they dropped Tomi off the stretcher.

shovelhead said:

I voted no,



There were 2 doctors behind the safety barrier,

Do not move a patient is for people that don't know what they are doing.

For the marshals to move Tomi quickly to the doctors within one minute was the only sane thing to do.

Red Flag would have delayed the doctor's response.



There were no dangers to other riders, the track was cleaned before the riders came back to that section, so no red flag was warranted.



If Tomi would have survived, this thread wouldn't exist.

It is easy to point fingers when all the cards are laid down.



I think it was a good call and Butler should not resigned..





RIP #48

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So whats a moto2 lap time here then ? About 1 min 40. So no red flag gave the doctors less than that time to ..... the casualty for injures to see if moving him there and then or bringing the equipment to him was the best option. That's nowhere near enough time to make these decisions. No red flag means the medical staff were put under stress by the very small time window of the bikes coming back around. This could well have been a factor in the doctors decision to move tomi so quickly. By the time the doctors were by tomi, how much time out of the 1 min 40 was left to ..... and make a decision ? The second the doctors went on track the race should have been red flagged and this is why butler must now go.

xx CURVE xx said:

my opinion..



If you run up to a fallen rider and he cant move on his own or speak or give you any inclination of his condition...you DO NOT TOUCH him till a Doctor arrives...Red Flag.

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+1



I haven't voted purely because all I have seen of the incident is a brief clip on youtube, but from the evidence and arguments i've seen, then yes the race should have been stopped unquestionably. What people forget is that flag signals (and any orders such as safety cars, race stoppage etc) are there for the MARSHALLS safety just as much as the riders. Through a high speed corner like that, the foam barrier they placed in front of Shoya would have done little to protect him, the marshalls or the other rider had it been hit. It seems to me that there was no form of, or miscommunication between the race directors and marshalls at the corner. Would the doctors who attended have no stretchered him off if they were informed that the race was to be stopped immediately so that they were safe to work on him in the middle of the track? Also like I say, without sounding callous, the safety of the marshalls is just as important as, afterall they are volunteers...every rider/driver goes out knowing the risks they are taking.



On this point though, I must admit that i'm a fairly recent MotoGP fan (2004-) and I have commented a number of times that compared to say F1, I have been surprised at the seemingly more 'butchered' medical standards of MotoGP, especially when you consider that bike racing is a far more dangerous sport than car racing. For instance as far back as 1994 I remember when Ayrton Senna died, after his crash the marshalls saw he wasn't moving and left him alone until medical help had arrved (which they summoned). Again in 1999 when Shcumacher broke his leg, the second the marshall got to his car and realised he was injured he summoned for medical help and didnt touch him but just stayed there with him. There have been countless other crashes where the medical care in F1 and the welfare of the driver falls above all else, even if that means a safety car or race stoppage, and drivers are not extracted from the car until the full extent of their injuries can be assessed. This last part to me is crucially important because far too often in MotoGP I have seen seriously injured rider literally get thrown on a stretcher and carried off behind the barrier, examples include:



Kato - Suzuka 2003

Melandi/Capirossi - Catalynua 2006 (Melandri could have easily had spinal injuries and I distinctly remember them shoving a neck brace on him then throwing him onto a stretcher. Also it took a FULL lap before this race was red-flagged)

Redding/Tomizoawa - Misano 2010



To name just a few. Isn't it about time Dorna addressed this issue, or are they so cold blooded all they care about is keeping races running?

#22 said:

+1



I haven't voted purely because all I have seen of the incident is a brief clip on youtube, but from the evidence and arguments i've seen, then yes the race should have been stopped unquestionably. What people forget is that flag signals (and any orders such as safety cars, race stoppage etc) are there for the MARSHALLS safety just as much as the riders. Through a high speed corner like that, the foam barrier they placed in front of Shoya would have done little to protect him, the marshalls or the other rider had it been hit. It seems to me that there was no form of, or miscommunication between the race directors and marshalls at the corner. Would the doctors who attended have no stretchered him off if they were informed that the race was to be stopped immediately so that they were safe to work on him in the middle of the track? Also like I say, without sounding callous, the safety of the marshalls is just as important as, afterall they are volunteers...every rider/driver goes out knowing the risks they are taking.



On this point though, I must admit that i'm a fairly recent MotoGP fan (2004-) and I have commented a number of times that compared to say F1, I have been surprised at the seemingly more 'butchered' medical standards of MotoGP, especially when you consider that bike racing is a far more dangerous sport than car racing. For instance as far back as 1994 I remember when Ayrton Senna died, after his crash the marshalls saw he wasn't moving and left him alone until medical help had arrved (which they summoned). Again in 1999 when Shcumacher broke his leg, the second the marshall got to his car and realised he was injured he summoned for medical help and didnt touch him but just stayed there with him. There have been countless other crashes where the medical care in F1 and the welfare of the driver falls above all else, even if that means a safety car or race stoppage, and drivers are not extracted from the car until the full extent of their injuries can be assessed. This last part to me is crucially important because far too often in MotoGP I have seen seriously injured rider literally get thrown on a stretcher and carried off behind the barrier, examples include:



Kato - Suzuka 2003

Melandi/Capirossi - Catalynua 2006 (Melandri could have easily had spinal injuries and I distinctly remember them shoving a neck brace on him then throwing him onto a stretcher. Also it took a FULL lap before this race was red-flagged)

Redding/Tomizoawa - Misano 2010



To name just a few. Isn't it about time Dorna addressed this issue, or are they so cold blooded all they care about is keeping races running?

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seems so how many times does the RED FLAG get shown in BSB.its not a prob TV Schedules or what

if someone is down on track its RED FLAGGED.ASAP

It's a no brainer.....RED FLAG..................Paul Butler shouldn't resign......he should be sacked.



I don't know how many of you watched the race, but no-one on here seems to have mentioned, that in their hurry to get him off the track, the marshalls actually dropped the stretcher. If the race had been stopped, as it should, the ambulance could have driven round and pulled up virtually next to him. The doctors must have had some idea how badly injured he was. Surely they could have said something to get the race red flagged.

Mr Butler.

The prosecutor of Rimini has reportedly launched an investigation into the death of Shoya Tomizawa following the Moto2 Grand Prix at Misano.



According to the Italian ANSA news agency, Paolo Giovagnoli will begin an inquest into the 19-year-old’s tragic death in a move that could also see criminal charges being brought.



Tomizawa crashed on lap 12 of the race into the path of Alex de Angelis and Scott Redding, but the race was not stopped as track marshals swiftly stretchered him off the circuit.



However, Tomizawa was then accidentally dropped by a marshal when they stumbled whilst carrying through the gravel.



With an impending autopsy set to reveal exactly what contributed to his death, ANSA says Giovagnoli is considering bringing charges to individuals that are yet to be identified.



The news comes after MotoGP officials defended the decision not to stop the race to allow Tomizawa to receive treatment at the track, claiming they were better equipped to deal with his serious injuries behind the scenes.

Pigeon said:

The prosecutor of Rimini has reportedly launched an investigation into the death of Shoya Tomizawa

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Can't say I'm surprized, it's the same general area that Ayrton Senna died & that court case dragged on for nearly a decade.