Safety car vs Red Flag

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Orrmate @ Apr 17 2007, 11:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>My answer to that is that 'this is racing'. Its a cliche, but .... really does happen. At the worst possible time usually. To use Lavilla as an example, maybe if in his strategy he took the safety car in mind and conserved his tyres a little more, it shouldnt be a problem. Its just something you have to accept could happen when you go out there, and incorporate into your plan.

Sure it's racing, and if the pace car is there it's part of the unknown factors, but as long as it's not there in GP/SBK we can discuss if we want another unknown "that's racing" factor. I'd say no. It's enough factors the riders can't controll and we don't need another.

I agree, trouble is the t.v companies don't like the large delays involved with red flags and the confusion of aggregate racing so the pace car gets used to stop both. However i think the current motogp system is pretty good, i think it has to be said that there can be no system where the vehicles are all slowed down or stopped for safetey reasons without removing the gaps and advantages that riders may have achieved.

Unless, there is a caution style flag shown where all riders must put there bikes into the a restricted mode (similar to pitlane speedlimiter but a bit faster) so they are all restricted to the same speed. This would keep the gaps pretty much the same and keep the bikes at a safe speed wile the hazard is dealt with properley. Of course there would be a certain amount of loss and gain with riders putting their systems on, but anybody seen to be taking the piss a bit could be punished and it would still be far fairer than any other system.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 18 2007, 10:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I agree, trouble is the t.v companies don't like the large delays involved with red flags and the confusion of aggregate racing so the pace car gets used to stop both. However i think the current motogp system is pretty good, i think it has to be said that there can be no system where the vehicles are all slowed down or stopped for safetey reasons without removing the gaps and advantages that riders may have achieved.

Unless, there is a caution style flag shown where all riders must put there bikes into the a restricted mode (similar to pitlane speedlimiter but a bit faster) so they are all restricted to the same speed. This would keep the gaps pretty much the same and keep the bikes at a safe speed wile the hazard is dealt with properley. Of course there would be a certain amount of loss and gain with riders putting their systems on, but anybody seen to be taking the piss a bit could be punished and it would still be far fairer than any other system.

I know tv hate it, but fu them. This is real life not a soap opera. Thier time schedule obsession is a bit too much IMO. I'm quite indifferential to the current "every stop is a new race" rule. As said before "it's racing".

True. All gaps will be swallowed but at least they all start on equal footing at the restart.

I also like the thought of a limiter. Problem with a technological solution like that would be to decide when the limiter should be switched on. Maybe that could be done on the finish line? Of cource that would still have to open for red flag situations late in the race with a wide spread field and when a dangerous situation happen in the front while at the end of a lap.

Yes i think all solutions have their problems and there isnt anything wrong with the current system in motogp, perhaps superbike racing should follow suit.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Apr 18 2007, 06:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I know tv hate it, but fu them. This is real life not a soap opera. Thier time schedule obsession is a bit too much IMO. I'm quite indifferential to the current "every stop is a new race" rule. As said before "it's racing".
+1

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Apr 18 2007, 06:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I also like the thought of a limiter. Problem with a technological solution like that would be to decide when the limiter should be switched on.
how about remotely by race control?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frosty58 @ Apr 18 2007, 03:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>+1
how about remotely by race control?

Taking control away from the riders is potentialy dangerous.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 18 2007, 10:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Taking control away from the riders is potentialy dangerous.
no more so than a pace car comin out on track or somebody pullin up after seeing a flag. at least it would be similtaneous & all limiters would kick in at once. theres no perfect sollution.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frosty58 @ Apr 18 2007, 04:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>no more so than a pace car comin out on track or somebody pullin up after seeing a flag. at least it would be similtaneous & all limiters would kick in at once. theres no perfect sollution.

Imagine riding your bike along at race speed to find the engine suddenly slow you down to a safe speed with no input fromy you. Sureley faces would break screens and similar bad things would happen

We do have to remember that whatever the solution, it'll probably only happen once in a blue moon. Its very rare that we have a serious accident nowadays, or a bike or rider in a dangerous position on the track.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 18 2007, 10:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Imagine riding your bike along at race speed to find the engine suddenly slow you down to a safe speed with no input fromy you. Sureley faces would break screens and similar bad things would happen
imagine your racing along & u see a red flag & u pull up only to be slammed into by the guy behind u that did'nt notice it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frosty58 @ Apr 18 2007, 04:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>imagine your racing along & u see a red flag & u pull up only to be slammed into by the guy behind u that did'nt notice it.

That is different because the control ultimately lies with the riders, but i know what you mean.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Orrmate @ Apr 18 2007, 04:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>We do have to remember that whatever the solution, it'll probably only happen once in a blue moon. Its very rare that we have a serious accident nowadays, or a bike or rider in a dangerous position on the track.

once in a blue moon ? have you seen BSB ? just about every race get's paced at some point

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frosty58 @ Apr 18 2007, 07:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>imagine your racing along & u see a red flag & u pull up only to be slammed into by the guy behind u that did'nt notice it.


when riders see a red flag, they don't slam on the brakes and stop. when it's safe, they raise their hand to let riders behind them know there's a red flag out.

pace car is not a good idea at all.

riders don't get penalized under the current rules because aggregate times are used. the current system is very fair and as safe as possible.

has anybody ever seen a rider go up the back of someone else at a red flag?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (baldylocks @ Apr 18 2007, 05:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>once in a blue moon ? have you seen BSB ? just about every race get's paced at some point
Thats because BSB are abusing it slightly, although having read the race directors explanation on the BSB forum, the one that went out at Thruxton seems pretty justified, we just didn't see it on TV. Apparantly a rider crashed, got up a little disorientated and started walking towards the wrong side of the track, towards the racing line. So you could say that one was a decent call.

As long as its not abused, I still think safety cars are the best option.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (drumfu @ Apr 18 2007, 12:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>they don't slam on the brakes and stop.
did'nt say slam on the brakes now did i.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 18 2007, 10:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Imagine riding your bike along at race speed to find the engine suddenly slow you down to a safe speed with no input fromy you. Sureley faces would break screens and similar bad things would happen

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frosty58 @ Apr 18 2007, 10:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>imagine your racing along & u see a red flag & u pull up only to be slammed into by the guy behind u that did'nt notice it.

I kind of mention GPS control to get riders closely back to their time gaps once it’s safe… dreaming on technology… But to be fair I am with Tom on this one, I think the current system works better. And to add to the slowing down for track control, imagine being at a fast turn, knee and almost elbow down to the ground and suddenly speed control kicks in… WOW, we gave time to sort out one crash but created 5 more!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Apr 19 2007, 01:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I kind of mention GPS control

Yes, i did get the idea from your post.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Apr 16 2007, 09:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i must say thruxton bsb is the only time i can remember a saftry car comming out during a race
The safety car came out at Brands Hatch too, but BSB have changed the rules this year so if the race is at least two thirds distance and the car comes out they can add the laps back onto the race after the car has gone in.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 18 2007, 04:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Taking control away from the riders is potentialy dangerous.
yup,same could be said about traction control, remember when edwards nealy fliped off the line crashing into everything.,you relie on these electronics and they work most of the time but when they dont theres trouble,but thats prototypes for you.

Thread digging time..

The more I've thought about Tom's idea recently, the more its grown on me. I think in answer to the situation of a remotelly controlled system, there could be a few simple safety measures.

In F1 I believe they have lights on their steering wheel, to show them when the different flags are out. How about if the riders got a 10 second warning that the limited system was about to kick in, by some kind of flashing light on their dashboard, so they can prepare properly.

Also, when we have pit radios (only a matter of time) this could be used to let the rider know.

If they can pull this off safely, it could be an effective system.