Rumor: Volkswagen Group may sell Ducati

Dr No · Jun 16, 2016

JohnnyKnockdown said:
Your well thought out intelligent observations are always a cut above the rest.
Using your analytical approach and business savvy do you "predict" VW will sell Ducati?

V-dub should kill Bugatti. How many Golfs do they have to sell to subsidise the losses on those ugly fuckers?
VWs immediate response to getting busting cheating on emissions tests? Ask suppliers for 10% cost reduction. Ducati was a vanity project from Piech. Let's see what eventuates...

J4rn0 · Jun 16, 2016

I don't think Audi-VW are going to sell Ducati now, especially after the emission scandal. Ducati is functional to keeping the emission footprint of the entire group low, as the emissions per unit of any motorcycle is much lower than cars. That was also part of the reason why the Audi group bought Ducati in the first place, and then invested to dramatically increase their production.

MigsAngel · Jun 16, 2016

J4rn0 said:
I don't think Audi-VW are going to sell Ducati now, especially after the emission scandal. Ducati is functional to keeping the emission footprint of the entire group low, as the emissions per unit of any motorcycle is much lower than cars. That was also part of the reason why the Audi group bought Ducati in the first place, and then invested to dramatically increase their production.

https://next.ft.com/content/a22391b8-efcc-3d24-9424-5b92e9fdf3f9

Their announcements / communications today doesn't seem to be including Motorcycles in their 4 cores units....

Dr No · Jun 16, 2016

J4rn0 said:
I don't think Audi-VW are going to sell Ducati now, especially after the emission scandal. Ducati is functional to keeping the emission footprint of the entire group low, as the emissions per unit of any motorcycle is much lower than cars. That was also part of the reason why the Audi group bought Ducati in the first place, and then invested to dramatically increase their production.

So bikes are under the same emissions category as cars...ummm

moto vudu · Jun 16, 2016

Dr No said:
So bikes are under the same emissions category as cars...ummm

Yeah, there's no way that's true otherwise all the major manufacturers would be adding motorcycles and scooters to their fleet.

povol · Jun 16, 2016

moto vudu said:
Yeah, there's no way that's true otherwise all the major manufacturers would be adding motorcycles and scooters to their fleet.

I wouldnt think so either. If that were the case, every car company would have a line of scooters to affect their CAFE ratings.

J4rn0 · Jun 16, 2016

Dr No said:
So bikes are under the same emissions category as cars...ummm

When evaluating the emission impact of an automotive group, they average emission per vehicle. So if a group (like BMW) also produce motorcycles, their average gets better with bikes offsetting a little the impact of the large cars and Suvs.

But, they really have lost a lot of money now and first things come first, so rumors of them selling not only Ducati but aldo Lamborghini and Bugatti and other secondary but valuable assets cannot be dismissed. Actually I think the "legal" owners of Ducati are Lamborghini within the group, so if Lamborghini gets sold Ducati automatically follows.

moto vudu · Jun 16, 2016

J4rn0 said:
When evaluating the emission impact of an automotive group, they average emission per vehicle. So if a group (like BMW) also produce motorcycles, their average gets better with bikes offsetting a little the impact of the large cars and Suvs.

But, they really have lost a lot of money now and first things come first, so rumors of them selling not only Ducati but aldo Lamborghini and Bugatti and other secondary but valuable assets cannot be dismissed. Actually I think the "legal" owners of Ducati are Lamborghini within the group, so if Lamborghini gets sold Ducati automatically follows.

Motorcycles are not included when evaluating the emissions impact of an automotive group. So BMW's motorcycles are not factored in with their cars. CAFE has separate standards for "passenger cars" and "light trucks".

J4rn0 · Jun 16, 2016

Guys, you are mixing the emission tests (used to check compliance of production vehicles with current regulations) with the evaluation of the environmental impact of an industrial automotive group, that is calculated on their global output and becomes important when they deal with governments and international bodies. To give you an example, the pending EU target for manufacturers is to meet a low-CO2 emission of 95g/km in their fleet total. This does not make a distinction between bikes and cars, it is a CO2/km value. In reaching this kind of targets groups like BMW, Fiat or Audi-VW currently have an advantage on, say, AGM because they all have a motorcycle division. (I hope AGM buy Ducati if Audi sells them).

Cool Blue · Jun 16, 2016

J4rn0 said:
Guys, you are mixing the emission tests (used to check compliance of production vehicles with current regulations) with the evaluation of the environmental impact of an industrial automotive group, that is calculated on their global output and becomes important when they deal with governments and international bodies.

No, there only one individual doing that (I guess they're pissed again)...

J4rn0 said:
To give you an example, the pending EU target for manufacturers is to meet a low-CO2 emission of 95g/km in their fleet total. This does not make a distinction between bikes and cars, it is a CO2/km value. In reaching this kind of targets groups like BMW, Fiat or Audi-VW currently have an advantage on, say, AGM because they all have a motorcycle division. (I hope AGM buy Ducati if Audi sells them).

I'd be interested in your knowledge source. After a quick google I saw that the U.S. CAFE standards have a category for passenger cars and another for "Light Trucks", no mention of motorcycles. The European standards have similar categories and both take into account mass and/or footprint. Neither mention motorcycles and if they were included, I guess the impact would be little given their small mass and footprint.

Please read the manual: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ee861528(v=office.15).aspx

michaelm · Jun 16, 2016

Cool Blue said:
No, there only one individual doing that (I guess they're pissed again)...

I'd be interested in your knowledge source. After a quick google I saw that the U.S. CAFE standards have a category for passenger cars and another for "Light Trucks", no mention of motorcycles. The European standards have similar categories and both take into account mass and/or footprint. Neither mention motorcycles and if they were included, I guess the impact would be little given their small mass and footprint.

Please read the manual: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ee861528(v=office.15).aspx

J4rn0 is usually particularly well informed with regard to matters Ducati.

Whether or not this is correct I too recall reports at the time VW acquired Ducati that reducing average emissions, maybe for the Lamborgini division in particular, was one of the reasons.

moto vudu · Jun 16, 2016

Maybe in the EU the regulations allow including motorcycles in the automotive fleet to lower the overall emissions rating, but there's no way U.S. regulations allow it on this side of the pond. You'd see scooters and motorcycles in Ford, Chevy, and Chrysler dealerships if it was allowed here.

Even more irony if VAG did acquire Ducati for the purpose of cheating emissions... it has all blown up in their face.

Dr No · Jun 16, 2016

J4rn0 said:
Guys, you are mixing the emission tests (used to check compliance of production vehicles with current regulations) with the evaluation of the environmental impact of an industrial automotive group, that is calculated on their global output and becomes important when they deal with governments and international bodies. To give you an example, the pending EU target for manufacturers is to meet a low-CO2 emission of 95g/km in their fleet total. This does not make a distinction between bikes and cars, it is a CO2/km value. In reaching this kind of targets groups like BMW, Fiat or Audi-VW currently have an advantage on, say, AGM because they all have a motorcycle division. (I hope AGM buy Ducati if Audi sells them).

J4rno,
You are correct, except where it matters.
The regulation in question (ECE443-2009) only applies to M1 category vehicles - passenger cars. Not light commercial, not large goods vehicles and NOT motorcycles (L category). End of story.

I am sure this was discussed before...back when VAG first acquired Ducati.

Cool Blue · Jun 16, 2016

Here is a link to the European framework.
http://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/ICCTupdate_EU-95gram_jan2014.pdf

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Dr No · Jun 16, 2016

michaelm said:
J4rn0 is usually particularly well informed with regard to matters Ducati.

Whether or not this is correct I too recall reports at the time VW acquired Ducati that reducing average emissions, maybe for the Lamborgini division in particular, was one of the reasons.

Lamborghini isn't under the VW umbrella for this Reg. It appears to be stand-alone. Futher, Ducati isn't listed as a manufacturer on the European Commission website (a place where a non-lazy, non-speculate-for- clicks journo could have easily uncovered this information )

Iowegian · Jun 16, 2016

Supposedly Auði said today that Ducati ís not for sale.

J4rn0 · Jun 17, 2016

Cool Blue said:
No, there only one individual doing that (I guess they're pissed again)...

I'd be interested in your knowledge source. After a quick google I saw that the U.S. CAFE standards have a category for passenger cars and another for "Light Trucks", no mention of motorcycles. The European standards have similar categories and both take into account mass and/or footprint. Neither mention motorcycles and if they were included, I guess the impact would be little given their small mass and footprint.

Please read the manual: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ee861528(v=office.15).aspx

What I said is out of memory because because I translated a few Euro emission standards documents some time back, -- I didn't google it on the internet.

If I remember well, the Euro standards' lowest category is called "M" and is defined as "Vehicles with at least four wheels designed for the carriage of passengers"; the "at least four wheels" part stayed in my memory because it puts motorcycles, trycicles, and passenger cars together.

Then of course they have many additional categories according to the increasing number of passengers and weight, when it is over 8 passengers and over 5 tons for example, specific ones for for trucks and other heavy duty vehicles, and so on.

Cool Blue · Jun 17, 2016

J4rn0 said:
What I said is out of memory because because I translated a few Euro emission standards documents some time back, -- I didn't google it on the internet.

If I remember well, the Euro standards' lowest category is called "M" and is defined as "Vehicles with at least four wheels designed for the carriage of passengers"; the "at least four wheels" part stayed in my memory because it puts motorcycles, trycicles, and passenger cars together.

Then of course they have many additional categories according to the increasing number of passengers and weight, when it is over 8 passengers and over 5 tons for example, specific ones for for trucks and other heavy duty vehicles, and so on.

Hmm, not following you man...
"At least four wheels" excludes bikes and trikes...
It means four wheels or more.

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J4rn0 · Jun 17, 2016

Cool Blue said:
Hmm, not following you man...
"At least four wheels" excludes bikes and trikes...
It means four wheels or more.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You are right... what I meant is max 4 wheels of course. Silly me. Now I wonder how it was in the real paper...

Anyway, leaving my memory aside, I know there is some substance to what I said. I remember reading comments to that effect in articles at the time of the Audi buyout, now to make up for my shabbyness I quickly googled out one:

Why Audi will get Ducati

Cool Blue · Jun 17, 2016

J4rn0 said:
You are right... what I meant is max 4 wheels of course. Silly me. Now I wonder how it was in the real paper...

Anyway, leaving my memory aside, I know there is some substance to what I said. I remember reading comments to that effect in articles at the time of the Audi buyout, now to make up for my shabbyness I quickly googled out one:

Why Audi will get Ducati

I figured it must have been "lost in translation" .

And I also had the same thought about the actual paper. [emoji12]

In the article it says they "hope" they will benefit so still not clear.

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Rumor: Volkswagen Group may sell Ducati

Dr No

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MigsAngel

Dr No

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povol

J4rn0

moto vudu

J4rn0

Cool Blue

michaelm

moto vudu

Dr No

Cool Blue

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