Riders and Engineers don't agree about corner speed issues

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Oct 24 2008, 04:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I am saying that they control the danger already by the use of the machines controls. So they can decide to race as safely as they see fit without any needed outside limitations like a tire rule. If they aren't competitive because of their timidity then they stand to lose their ride and that is how it should be. Pin it or move on. I don't want to see slower MotoGP racing.

I would rather not see riders getting seriously hurt on a regular basis so i think that safetey needs to be seriously considered. In the past this has been addressed with changes to the tracks and facilities, but this is no longer appropriate with the financial impact this has and the rate of development.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Oct 24 2008, 05:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If they are so brutal then how come WSBK and AMA bikes can lap faster than half the motogp grid steel brakes, spec tires and all?

We were talking about safety, not lap times.
The 'brutality' of the decelaration-acceleration action makes for more crash potential, that's all.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Oct 23 2008, 07:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Nor about bikes, racing, tracks, rules, exciting finishes, capacities, weight, tyres, marketing, sponsorship, politics, etc… and worst of all, has got NO clue about fans!

Or you could have just said "Hijo de su gran puta madre!"

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Oct 24 2008, 05:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Or you could have just said "Hijo de su gran puta madre!"

Those were my exact words Jumkie… although somehow when I used Google Translator it came out in that much nicer way!

The hell with so-called ‘Safety Rules’, organizers only care about $$$… Once we had 500 2S and they were great, brutal untamed donkeys. Then went for safety and got 990cc 4S, soon we got just under 350Km (Capirosi’s 343Km at Mugello I think), “Oh No! We’re catching up on and over F1, they recon it’s not safe”. Then went for safety and got 800cc because they would not catch up with F1 speeds, so we were ‘safe’, yet lap times are increasing (which is the whole idea of racing, isn’t it?). Now we are gradually going for 600cc, bloody hell… next will be tricycles or learning wheels!

So get the whole 18 god dam races with 990cc and no limits what so ever at Qatar if you need greater runaway areas, STOP fk’n the rules man!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Oct 24 2008, 10:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If cornering speeds are getting so dangerous then why don't they just slow down or maybe find a different line of work? I'm sorry but if you get a million E/yr. and you don't want to pin it then get lost.

It isn't about how big anybody's balls are. There is such a thing as the point of diminishing returns. Regardless of the all the cool new frames and electronic devices that have come along in the last few decades - the overall concept of the motorcycle is a pretty old one. No-one ever thought that motorcycles were going to be able to ignore the laws of physics. Look at how many zillions of dollars have been spent on R&D for tires and still none of the companies have been able to make a tire that will work as good as new at the end of 24 laps. At a certain point motorcycles are just not going to be able to any faster (around curves). And we're approaching that point in the not so distant future. That's why WSB is catching up with Moto GP. That's the reality.
... As a former club racer I can tell you there is (regardless of what some fans think) such a thing as an acceptable degree of risk. Racers have a right to think that they have a reasonable chance of finishing the race in one piece. They're athletes - not disposable gladiators to be chewed up and spat out for the amusement of bloodthirsty spectators. Any belligerent fanyboy who thinks the riders's concerns for safety should be ignored in order to make more compelling racing - should address his concerns, directly-to-face to face with Wayne Rainey or Bruce Hammer.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keshav @ Oct 25 2008, 02:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>... As a former club racer I can tell you there is (regardless of what some fans think) such a thing as an acceptable degree of risk. Racers have a right to think that they have a reasonable chance of finishing the race in one piece. They're athletes - not disposable gladiators to be chewed up and spat out for the amusement of bloodthirsty spectators. Any belligerent fanyboy who thinks the riders's concerns for safety should be ignored in order to make more compelling racing - should address his concerns, directly-to-face to face with Wayne Rainey or Bruce Hammer.

What an extrodinary nice way to say it. I would have used some very different words but I wholehartedly agree.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keshav @ Oct 25 2008, 07:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It isn't about how big anybody's balls are. There is such a thing as the point of diminishing returns. Regardless of the all the cool new frames and electronic devices that have come along in the last few decades - the overall concept of the motorcycle is a pretty old one. No-one ever thought that motorcycles were going to be able to ignore the laws of physics. Look at how many zillions of dollars have been spent on R&D for tires and still none of the companies have been able to make a tire that will work as good as new at the end of 24 laps. At a certain point motorcycles are just not going to be able to any faster (around curves). And we're approaching that point in the not so distant future. That's why WSB is catching up with Moto GP. That's the reality.
... As a former club racer I can tell you there is (regardless of what some fans think) such a thing as an acceptable degree of risk. Racers have a right to think that they have a reasonable chance of finishing the race in one piece. They're athletes - not disposable gladiators to be chewed up and spat out for the amusement of bloodthirsty spectators. Any belligerent fanyboy who thinks the riders's concerns for safety should be ignored in order to make more compelling racing - should address his concerns, directly-to-face to face with Wayne Rainey or Bruce Hammer.

Yes, but the trouble is not really ‘Safety’, see today’s ‘Safety’ against the one when ‘Wayne Rainey’ or ‘Bruce Hammer’ were actively racing. There is a huge difference and we should definitely keep improving ‘Safety’ for Riders with better tracks, tyres, suspensions, suits, helmets, etc. That is not the point.

The real problem is that ‘With the Excuse of SAFETY’, Organizers are messing completely the Sport… Today they are selling the ideal 600cc, because 250cc are too dangerous… crap on. I know 2 Strokes may be going nowhere, but come on, 600cc are really going to be ‘Safer’ than 250?

As a ‘Sunday is my track day’ fan as me can see a mile away…

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Oct 25 2008, 03:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The real problem is that ‘With the Excuse of SAFETY’, Organizers are messing completely the Sport… Today they are selling the ideal 600cc, because 250cc are too dangerous… crap on. I know 2 Strokes may be going nowhere, but come on, 600cc are really going to be ‘Safer’ than 250?

Who has been claiming the 250's are being replaced for safetey reasons? I haven't seent his yet.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Oct 25 2008, 09:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>because 250cc are too dangerous…
wrong...... too expensive is the 250s issue not safety.

[quote name='VHMP01' post='163031' date='Oct 25 2008, 10:39 AM']Yes, but the trouble is not really ‘Safety’, see today’s ‘Safety’ against the one when ‘Wayne Rainey’ or ‘Bruce Hammer’ were actively racing. There is a huge difference and we should definitely keep improving ‘Safety’ for Riders with better tracks, tyres, suspensions, suits, helmets, etc. That is not the point.

In the simplest of terms - when the bikes's power exceeds the capacity of the tires to hold the pavement - it's not safe. When corner speeds do reach the point where run-off is insufficient - it's not safe. At some point the distance of run-off space will reach a point where there's no place left to go.

The real problem is that ‘With the Excuse of SAFETY’, Organizers are messing completely the Sport… Today they are selling the ideal 600cc, because 250cc are too dangerous… crap on. I know 2 Strokes may be going nowhere, but come on, 600cc are really going to be ‘Safer’ than 250?

Changing the 250s for 600s has nothing to do with safety. It's about marketing - plain and simple. From the fan's standpoint - this is a totally ...... up proposition. From a safety point of view - I'd say the 250s are pretty good. How many serious injuries have been reported in the 250 class in the last 10 years. Very few. Unfortunately the change makes sense from the manufacturers point of view - as their thinking is: What's the point in supporting a prototype class for a 250 two-stroke - when two-stroke street bikes are illegal in all the countries that make up their main market. To run a prototype class that doesn't promote a saleable street product is a luxury they can no longer afford. As for me I really miss seeing RZ350s and RGV Gamma 500s on the street - but that era is dead and gone.

Exactly my point… It is about 'Marketing', not 'Safety'… Development in 600cc will get stronger because of sales to customers. Therefore, they will be faster in turns, in and out of turns, in straights, etc. Eventually you could consider that 600cc will be less 'Safe' than 250cc, same that happened with 500cc and 990cc!

I will even quote myself from the post aside!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Oct 24 2008, 08:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Forget the Records, don't injure yourself Rossi...

But still, Organizers a messing up the Sport, and that is what is totally wrong mate!

On one side: 500 – 990 – 800 and ‘Safety’ matters the most…
On the other side: 250 – 600 and ‘Marketing’ matters the most…

So which one is it going to be ‘Safety’ or ‘Marketing’?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Oct 25 2008, 11:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Exactly my point… <u>It is about 'Marketing', not 'Safety</u>'… Development in 600cc will get stronger because of sales to customers. Therefore, they will be faster in turns, in and out of turns, in straights, etc. Eventually you could consider that 600cc will be less 'Safe' than 250cc, same that happened with 500cc and 990cc!

I will even quote myself from the post aside!



But still, Organizers a messing up the Sport, and that is what is totally wrong mate!

With regards to the 250 class - this is true. With regards to the Moto GP class - not so.
There are numerous quotes from different riders floating around - where they talk about
the need to slow development in order that the tire technology be at the same level as
the bike technology - and at present - that's not the case in Moto GP. The problem, as has
been stated in this forum ad naseum - is that the powers that be don't understand the
technology and are trying to make the sport safer - using all the wrong methods.
With regards to Moto GP - marketing is not really the issue. Sales of 1000 CC bikes and
larger are great. The move to 800s doesn't improve the prospects of street bike sales
in any category.
Anyhow . . . faster racing is not necessarily more interesting. Closer racing definitely is.
The idea of the biggest companies running a 600cc prototype class will actually be
pretty interesting and there should be more competitive efforts by Suzuki and Kawasaki
if they believe that wins in this class will translate into bigger market shares in the US and
Europe. Maybe eventually they can make a 600cc four-stroke that at least smells like a two-stroke.
If they made a two-stroke cologne - I'd wear it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Oct 25 2008, 04:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>On one side: 500 – 990 – 800 and ‘Safety’ matters the most…
On the other side: 250 – 600 and ‘Marketing’ matters the most…

So which one is it going to be ‘Safety’ or ‘Marketing’?


2-strokes were and will be dropped for marketting reasons. 990cc was chosen to ensure that the 500's wouldn't have a clear advantage in the transition year. Following rapid development the capacity was reduced for safetey reasons.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Oct 25 2008, 04:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>2-strokes were and will be dropped for marketting reasons. 990cc was chosen to ensure that the 500's wouldn't have a clear advantage in the transition year. Following rapid development the capacity was reduced for safetey reasons.
And it was all that simple wasn't it...thanks Tom

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Oct 25 2008, 10:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>2-strokes were and will be dropped for marketting reasons. 990cc was chosen to ensure that the 500's wouldn't have a clear advantage in the transition year. Following rapid development the capacity was reduced for safetey reasons.

<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%<span style="font-family:ArialAs I see it Tom, there still is a bit of a contradiction at governing bodies. It is 'Safety' first unless 'Marketing' is relevant… if not, then they say they care about 'Safety'!

<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%<span style="font-family:ArialThis makes me believe that they do not really care about the Sport itself or Rules that benefit it. Sounds to me that today it is much more about money!

<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%<span style="font-family:ArialSo I still back up all my previous Posts.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Oct 25 2008, 07:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%<span style="font-family:ArialAs I see it Tom, there still is a bit of a contradiction at governing bodies. It is 'Safety' first unless 'Marketing' is relevant… if not, then they care about 'Safety'!

<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%<span style="font-family:ArialThis makes me believe that they do not really care about the Sport itself or Rules that benefit it. Sounds to me that today it is much more about money!

<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%<span style="font-family:ArialSo I still back up all my previous Posts.



The "sport itself" is only really about money. Without marketting value the money wouldn't come into the sport and motogp would not exist as we know it. Very few people involved in motogp would be in the same position if there was not money for them to make. Essentially without it being profitable business, motorsports would just be a leisure activity for the extremely wealthy as it once was.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Oct 25 2008, 01:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The "sport itself" is only really about money. Without marketting value the money wouldn't come into the sport and motogp would not exist as we know it. Very few people involved in motogp would be in the same position if there was not money for them to make. Essentially without it being profitable business, motorsports would just be a leisure activity for the extremely wealthy as it once was.

<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%<span style="font-family:ArialOf course Tom, I understand that totally. It is about business to corporations, but needs a balance. There would be NO MONEY at all if there were NO FANS or Costumers to sell their products. When corporations only care about money, the Costumers start getting tired of them and end up sending them to hell. Welcome to today’s MotoGP era, and not the era that bought its splendor!

Just a side note ,maybe some factories are holding off untill it will be decided that 600 cc was too big,new rules,we are going to 400cc...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Anders GUZZI @ Oct 25 2008, 05:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Just a side note ,maybe some factories are holding off untill it will be decided that 600 cc was too big,new rules,we are going to 400cc...

Negative. The 600cc engines are going to be heavily restricted. The preliminary plans called for rev limitations, spec ECU's and NO TRACTION CONTROL Amazing in my view. These little European kids might actually learn some bike control. The 600 class is going to be better than the premier class.