Riders and Engineers don't agree about corner speed issues

An excerpt from an article in RW Magazine.

“We have problem because we are going faster in the corners we we speak a lot about this subject with the Safety Commission.” said Valentino Rossi who sits on the commission with fellow riders Loris Capirossi, Marco Melandri and Chris Vermulen. “Every year we go faster and faster in the corners, so we need to increase run-off in a lot of places. We want some ideas to make us go a little more slowly, so we are speaking with manufacturers to reduce corner speed a little bit.”
Reigning Moto GP champion Casey Stoner agreed that something needs to be done about corner speeds. “Corner speeds are definitely getting higher,” Stoner said. “The bikes tend to go a lot further due to the higher corner speeds, so we keep reaching the fence when we crash. It’s difficult to know how to improve the situation. We’ve put our points forward on what we think is going to work and now it’s up to the people in charge to decide.”
But Rossi’s crew chief, Jeremy Burgess and many other pit-lane engineers don’t agree with the riders’ worries about corner speed.
“There’s also been a lot of talk that he 800s’ corner speed is too fast,” said Burgess. “It’s crazy talk. I don’t think there’s anything in it. I think the reason there’s been a few crashes this year is that some riders are trying hard to catch up because some of the others have stolen a march on them. OK, corner speed is always going to come up, but we’re not going around the corners as fast as the 250s do. If the corner speed on the 800s is so much faster than the 990s we will never be able to reduce capacity in the future because the bikes will be going round the corner so ......’ fast that they won’t even stick on the track. The argument is so flawed. It is people reacting to what’s happening over a very short period of time, and some of these people who make statements are very well listened to by the press but their statements aren’t well thought out. Someone needs to present the facts and the physics rather than just he rhetoric. Poor old Carmelo doesn’t understand the physics of a motorcycle.”

Really! There hasn't been that much talk how dangerous 250 have become.
Maybe they don't go off that far because of less energy/force/weight.
I thought the 800's went as fast or faster than the 250's in the turns.

I bet the 250s go in faster but I doubt very much they exit as fast.

I'm not surprised the engineers take exception to the rules. Everytime they make progress the governing body seeks to eliminate it. Unfortunately for the engineers they have created a lot of technologies that are not held in high regards by the riders, fans, or even the manufacturers themselves.

The obsession with winning and the good press it brings reveals that the sport is entirely about marketing and not about new technology.

1. Huge top end with no power at reasonable RPM ranges
2. Pneumatic valves
3. GPS controlled TC
4. Hiring 50kg midgets to ride
5. Big bang configurations that allow an I-4 to be balanced at 20k rpm with very little counterweight

This sport has failed to produce anything of substance for quit some time. The reduction in displacement and the advent of TC has completely chucked rideability out the window. I can't tell you how happy I am that modern bikes keep getting smaller and less comfortable so I can get to work 3 seconds faster than I did yesterday.

I'm almost getting to the point where I'm inclined to avoid GP technology like the plague.

Is it any wonder that engineers feel threatened? In their defense, they certainly aren't the ones arguing for overly complex rules that create useless technology.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Anders GUZZI @ Oct 22 2008, 05:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Really! There hasn't been that much talk how dangerous 250 have become.
Maybe they don't go off that far because of less energy/force/weight.
I thought the 800's went as fast or faster than the 250's in the turns.

Could it be the weight of an 800 gives more inertia?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Oct 22 2008, 05:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I bet the 250s go in faster but I doubt very much they exit as fast.
Agree - there is greater gyroscopic force exerted upon the 800 that wants to keep the bike running in a straight line which the rider has to overcome, but once the bike is picked upon the exit, the 800 is able to get its superior power down far more efficiently and effectively.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DRILL @ Oct 22 2008, 12:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Could it be the weight of an 800 gives more inertia?
That, plus with the extra power and complex electronics stuff can possibly go more wrong more rapidly than on the 250s. The riders don't have any extra inertia, though.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DRILL @ Oct 22 2008, 06:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Could it be the weight of an 800 gives more inertia?
That's probarbly a better word ,yes.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Oct 23 2008, 02:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This sport has failed to produce anything of substance for quit some time. The reduction in displacement and the advent of TC has completely chucked rideability out the window. I can't tell you how happy I am that modern bikes keep getting smaller and less comfortable so I can get to work 3 seconds faster than I did yesterday.

I'm almost getting to the point where I'm inclined to avoid GP technology like the plague.

3 seconds? you're soft

I am one of the lucky midgets you refer to in point 4, about 6 or 7 years ago the 1000cc bikes were huge ( I needed a ladder to get on one!), now, they are a similar size to the modern 600's. I love it, my trip to work is much more fun and quicker!!
However, my ape-like friends beg to differ!! hehehehe

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keshav @ Oct 22 2008, 06:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But Rossi’s crew chief, Jeremy Burgess and many other pit-lane engineers don’t agree with the riders’ worries about corner speed.
“There’s also been a lot of talk that he 800s’ corner speed is too fast,” said Burgess. “It’s crazy talk. I don’t think there’s anything in it. I think the reason there’s been a few crashes this year is that some riders are trying hard to catch up because some of the others have stolen a march on them. OK, corner speed is always going to come up, but we’re not going around the corners as fast as the 250s do. If the corner speed on the 800s is so much faster than the 990s we will never be able to reduce capacity in the future because the bikes will be going round the corner so ......’ fast that they won’t even stick on the track. The argument is so flawed. It is people reacting to what’s happening over a very short period of time, and some of these people who make statements are very well listened to by the press but their statements aren’t well thought out. Someone needs to present the facts and the physics rather than just he rhetoric. Poor old Carmelo doesn’t understand the physics of a motorcycle.”
Burgess is right.

Also, I like the way he talks!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keshav @ Oct 22 2008, 08:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>An excerpt from an article in RW Magazine.

“We have problem because we are going faster in the corners we we speak a lot about this subject with the Safety Commission.” said Valentino Rossi who sits on the commission with fellow riders Loris Capirossi, Marco Melandri and Chris Vermulen. “Every year we go faster and faster in the corners, so we need to increase run-off in a lot of places. We want some ideas to make us go a little more slowly, so we are speaking with manufacturers to reduce corner speed a little bit.”
Reigning Moto GP champion Casey Stoner agreed that something needs to be done about corner speeds. “Corner speeds are definitely getting higher,” Stoner said. “The bikes tend to go a lot further due to the higher corner speeds, so we keep reaching the fence when we crash. It’s difficult to know how to improve the situation. We’ve put our points forward on what we think is going to work and now it’s up to the people in charge to decide.”
But Rossi’s crew chief, Jeremy Burgess and many other pit-lane engineers don’t agree with the riders’ worries about corner speed.
“There’s also been a lot of talk that he 800s’ corner speed is too fast,” said Burgess. “It’s crazy talk. I don’t think there’s anything in it. I think the reason there’s been a few crashes this year is that some riders are trying hard to catch up because some of the others have stolen a march on them. OK, corner speed is always going to come up, but we’re not going around the corners as fast as the 250s do. If the corner speed on the 800s is so much faster than the 990s we will never be able to reduce capacity in the future because the bikes will be going round the corner so ......’ fast that they won’t even stick on the track. The argument is so flawed. It is people reacting to what’s happening over a very short period of time, and some of these people who make statements are very well listened to by the press but their statements aren’t well thought out. Someone needs to present the facts and the physics rather than just he rhetoric. Poor old Carmelo doesn’t understand the physics of a motorcycle.”

Dumb questions... when was this article written/published 'cause I think I've heard this before, and who is Carmelo?

Carmelo Ezpeleta, head of Dorna.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Oct 23 2008, 06:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Dumb questions... when was this article written/published 'cause I think I've heard this before, and who is Carmelo?

Article is from the newly published issue of Roadracing World that just hit the stands. Doubt you could have seen it before. BTW - what questions???

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keshav @ Oct 22 2008, 08:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>..."Poor old Carmelo doesn't understand the physics of a motorcycle"...

Nor about bikes, racing, tracks, rules, exciting finishes, capacities, weight, tyres, marketing, sponsorship, politics, etc… and worst of all, has got NO clue about fans!

Burgess is clearly right, but the finger has been pointed and the masses will fall for it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Oct 24 2008, 02:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Burgess is clearly right, but the finger has been pointed and the masses will fall for it.
I think even carmelo has genuine concerns about safety, just no idea about making rules which might promote it, or making rules for any other purpose for that matter; I do share your cynicism that safety is the main reason for many of his rule changes. I would actually be fairly happy for them to get burgess to make the rules, even whilst remaining as rossi's crew chief. All that is needed are sensible rules which are the same for everyone; such rules would very likely result in rossi winning anyway.

If cornering speeds are getting so dangerous then why don't they just slow down or maybe find a different line of work? I'm sorry but if you get a million E/yr. and you don't want to pin it then get lost.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Oct 24 2008, 03:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If cornering speeds are getting so dangerous then why don't they just slow down or maybe find a different line of work? I'm sorry but if you get a million E/yr. and you don't want to pin it then get lost.

Are you suggesting the riders should have no problem with the dangers?

I would agree with Lexicon that Burgess as an engineer does not like the idea of seeing his work obliterated by regulations... Because saying the 250 are going faster, or as fast, is clearly a pretext.

A 250's weight 100 kilos so they have less inertia and bring also less speed into the corner--it is a much smoother (and safer) action. I would suspect even 125's are faster than MotoGP's in the middle of many corners--entering and exiting the corners is a different matter.

MotoGP's are brutal, decelerating and accelerating much more violently. The risks involved in this kind of action are higher than with a 250's, even at 'almost' the same corner speeds.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Oct 24 2008, 10:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Are you suggesting the riders should have no problem with the dangers?

I am saying that they control the danger already by the use of the machines controls. So they can decide to race as safely as they see fit without any needed outside limitations like a tire rule. If they aren't competitive because of their timidity then they stand to lose their ride and that is how it should be. Pin it or move on. I don't want to see slower MotoGP racing.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Oct 24 2008, 10:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>MotoGP's are brutal, decelerating and accelerating much more violently. The risks involved in this kind of action are higher than with a 250's, even at 'almost' the same corner speeds.

If they are so brutal then how come WSBK and AMA bikes can lap faster than half the motogp grid steel brakes, spec tires and all?