Rider X speaks out about the ills in Motogp

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Jul 16 2008, 12:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>====
Since no riders seem to really care about TC, but they apparently are all obliged to use it to avoid giving others the advantage, well - after all, it is probably better to ban it. Let's hope for next year.


The key is not to ban TC because they can't remove the outputs, except for the fly by wire one, that would have to go. The thing is to simply to ban various input sensors, or rather regulate exactly what sensors will be allowed. Removing Gyros, accelerometers, wheel sensors, position sensors on suspension and only allow them on a separate telemetric system will do wonders. They can still play with their ECU's just that without input the systems are blind and any changes will have very limited effect.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jul 15 2008, 11:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Here is what the article said on crash.net: LINK



Tom: ‘Well that’s just the report saying it was "OFF". Maybe the reporter was confused, eh. Maybe the rider said something else.’

Ok, hey Sylvain, what’s up, tell us what happened with that thing we call ‘traction control’.




Oh ....! It sounds like he said he “switched it off”.

Tom: ‘Well that depends what he meant by “OFF”.

I wonder why the reporter didn't put the mic back in Sylvain's face and ask him, hey, I don't think I understand you correctly, what do you mean by "traction control" and why use such an illusive word like "OFF"?

Hahahaha. I could see how you might be confused what the article was about since the title was sooo confusing: "Guintoli sixth without traction control!" ...., I’ve read some pretty silly .... on this form, but I’d say this is top notch stupidity. Again, why would anybody take what you got to say seriously Tom? You make yourself out to be an ...... Well there it is, how you gonna weasel you're way out now?



This thread is amazing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can I suggest that anyone unfamiliar with the word "off" enters it into Google. I'm sure they will have a full explanation.

Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jul 15 2008, 11:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Here is what the article said on crash.net: LINK



Tom: ‘Well that’s just the report saying it was "OFF". Maybe the reporter was confused, eh. Maybe the rider said something else.’

Ok, hey Sylvain, what’s up, tell us what happened with that thing we call ‘traction control’.




Oh ....! It sounds like he said he “switched it off”.

Tom: ‘Well that depends what he meant by “OFF”.

I wonder why the reporter didn't put the mic back in Sylvain's face and ask him, hey, I don't think I understand you correctly, what do you mean by "traction control" and why use such an illusive word like "OFF"?

Hahahaha. I could see how you might be confused what the article was about since the title was sooo confusing: "Guintoli sixth without traction control!" ...., I’ve read some pretty silly .... on this form, but I’d say this is top notch stupidity. Again, why would anybody take what you got to say seriously Tom? You make yourself out to be an ...... Well there it is, how you gonna weasel you're way out now?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 16 2008, 12:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Sonds to me as if you are beating a dead horse Tom.

Yea it serves me right for trying to have a technical based discussion with people who have insufficient understanding, its no biggie.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 16 2008, 12:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Why even bother answering when you have absolutly nothing to add?
I'll try again:
Why should the electronics not be regulated when almost every thing else is?
Add to that: This is new stuff, freedom that wasn't there for as little as 6 years ago.
From then on it went from a modest role in wet wether to a system that influence almost all aspects of the bike. Now it's suddenly imparative to keep that freedom that has expanded the last years to maintain the series as a "true" prototype series?
This does not make any sense at all.

I didn't say that it is imperative to keep total freedom to maintian the spirit of prototype racing, i said they need to be careful with the restrictions they do make so as not to strangle the series into conformity like F1.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 16 2008, 10:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I didn't say that it is imperative to keep total freedom to maintian the spirit of prototype racing, i said they need to be careful with the restrictions they do make so as not to strangle the series into conformity like F1.

Hair splitting and nothing new. Ok.
In other words, just like this post I'm posting now

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 16 2008, 09:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hair splitting and nothing new. Ok.
In other words, just like this post I'm posting now

You call it hair splitting, when in fact i am clarifying my point as you have clearly taken it the wrong way. I'm under the impression you are intelligent enough to understand the difference.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Doc 79 @ Jul 15 2008, 07:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This being said, when was the last time a rookie like Lorenzo jumped on a bike and won a GP in his first few attempts? Something's gotta give and it has nothing to do with more testing time.


If memory serves me right, Max Biaggi won his first race on a 500cc beating Doohan.

CS got close in 2006, not sure about others though.





Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 16 2008, 11:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You call it hair splitting, when in fact i am clarifying my point as you have clearly taken it the wrong way. I'm under the impression you are intelligent enough to understand the difference.

I see now that I was much to kind to you in the previous post. Sorry, won't do that misstake again.
Regulations is NOT desiered you said.
Regulations are for Superbike you said.
What's it gona be Tom. Are prototype racing closely regulated or not?
Despite your bullsit about regulations is not in the spirit of prototype racing and regulations belong to Superbike, we all know it is regulated and you bringing superbike into this is way out.
In the light of the FACTS, namely most performance parts are strictly regulated why shouldn't electronics be? Either you want little or no regulation and if so thats basically hairsplitting compared to your first post or you are changing stand here.
One thing is for certain. You sure didn't clearify anything.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 16 2008, 02:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I see now that I was much to kind to you in the previous post. Sorry, won't do that misstake again.
Regulations is NOT desiered you said.
Regulations are for Superbike you said.
What's it gona be Tom. Are prototype racing closely regulated or not?
Despite your bullsit about regulations is not in the spirit of prototype racing and regulations belong to Superbike, we all know it is regulated and you bringing superbike into this is way out.
In the light of the FACTS, namely most performance parts are strictly regulated why shouldn't electronics be? Either you want little or no regulation and if so thats basically hairsplitting compared to your first post or you are changing stand here.
One thing is for certain. You sure didn't clearify anything.

Okay since you are clearly struggling i'll make it simple for you. Two statements of opinion that you should be able to recognize the difference between.

1) Prototype racing should be completely unregulated

2) The rule makers must be careful not to over regulate the series (my actual point)

I am fully aware of the amount of regulations in place, and i'm NOT saying I would like to have an un-regulated class (statement 1). My refference to superbike was that they have contantly evolving rules to counteract any advantage engineered by a team, and it has a negative impact on the series.

let's get back to a normal debate. what are YOUR thoughts on TC in general?

i'm on the fence with TC. in some aspects i think it could really help filter down to street bikes, and might save someone's life one day. (think new zx10r rider goes into mountins and rolls the throttle hard, coming out of a turn thinking he is still on his zx6r, and weeeee! off he goes, soaring through the air into on-coming traffic, wondering what the hell just happened, and then squish)

that being said. i definitely have watched what it can (or maybe i should say can't) do for racing. yes, the 800's are even faster than the 1000's - BECAUSE of TC. but i definitely do feel it has taken away from watching what the RIDER can do.

all we can do is watch and see what will happen. in the mean time, enjoy the show that we have.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 16 2008, 04:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yea it serves me right for trying to have a technical based discussion with people who have insufficient understanding, its no biggie.
Really hope this isn't a feeble attempt at a cheap shot man.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Doc 79 @ Jul 16 2008, 02:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Really hope this isn't a feeble attempt at a cheap shot man.

Yeah sorry man that wasn't nice. I was jsut frustrated because you were struggling with concepts that I have no trouble with. I'm not cut out to be a teacher.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (djm @ Jul 16 2008, 02:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>let's get back to a normal debate. what are YOUR thoughts on TC in general?

It's a difficult one for sure. My personal prefference would be to pick and chose certain elements of it to be banned and others allowed (i.e. no launch control). In reality though that is unjustifiable unless it's based on some kind of principle or logic, which it isn't. It would be difficult to ban some kinds of TC without banning others and I think safetey does need to be considered, but I think without a doubt that GPS based systems are a bit too far.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 16 2008, 09:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yeah sorry man that wasn't nice. I was jsut frustrated because you were struggling with concepts that I have no trouble with. I'm not cut out to be a teacher.
Not struggling. Debating. Bottom line, I understand EXACTLY what you mean, I just don't agree. But if we all agreed, this forum would be as boring as Pedrosa.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Doc 79 @ Jul 16 2008, 02:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Not struggling. Debating. Bottom line, I understand EXACTLY what you mean, I just don't agree. But if we all agreed, this forum would be as boring as Pedrosa.

So to put it simply you believe that when anyone uses the phrase "traction control" they are reffering to the same systems based on either the technical definition or your perception of TC (whether they are the same or otherwise), and there is no possibility that someone could use that phrase otherwise?

How is the current MotoGP results any different from when Rossi was on Honda? He won 11 races in 2001 and 2002.. Ok, Rossi may have CHOSEN to make it more interesting by letting the other think they had a chance to win the race. May be Stoner or Pedrosa need to just that and then the races will be come more "interesting" again..

IMHO, racing is interesting when the tires cannot handle the power of the bike for the full race. that's what contributes to unpredictability. I say remove the fuel restriction as that is the easiest to do and lets see what happens.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crvlvr @ Jul 17 2008, 12:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>IMHO, racing is interesting when the tires cannot handle the power of the bike for the full race. that's what contributes to unpredictability. I say remove the fuel restriction as that is the easiest to do and lets see what happens.

Good point but will it help when the TC only kicks in to aid the riders through the last laps?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crvlvr @ Jul 16 2008, 05:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>How is the current MotoGP results any different from when Rossi was on Honda? He won 11 races in 2001 and 2002.. Ok, Rossi may have CHOSEN to make it more interesting by letting the other think they had a chance to win the race. May be Stoner or Pedrosa need to just that and then the races will be come more "interesting" again..

IMHO, racing is interesting when the tires cannot handle the power of the bike for the full race. that's what contributes to unpredictability. I say remove the fuel restriction as that is the easiest to do and lets see what happens.

couldn't agree more.

and damn fine idea. i like it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 16 2008, 09:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So to put it simply you believe that when anyone uses the phrase "traction control" they are reffering to the same systems based on either the technical definition or your perception of TC (whether they are the same or otherwise), and there is no possibility that someone could use that phrase otherwise?
Trying to set me up with a rhetorical question seems cheezy, but ok...I'll bite.....YES, that is what I believe.....a traction control system is just that, it controls traction! Digging for different meanings is like boxing a glacier, you're never gonna win. It literally doesn't matter what the .... someone refers to it as, or what someone describes it as.............IT LIMITS WHEEL SPIN......DONE...OVER....and if a traction control system is turned OFF....the rider wasn't getting traction help from the ECU.......

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 16 2008, 02:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1) Prototype racing should be completely unregulated

2) The rule makers must be careful not to over regulate the series (my actual point)

Inside 10yrs, Robots will be riding these things... at least you don't have to pay them millions