Rider X speaks out about the ills in Motogp

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andy Roo @ Jul 20 2008, 02:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Imagine having a prototype series, where IF you build a prototype racer that is faster than other prototypes (although not on average only in the hands of one rider) then we change horses mid stream and declare that this is no longer really a prototype series because somebody dared build a faster prototype than the other. Not just any other but the one expected to win.

This article should be called the manifestations of egocentric attributional bias displayed when alarming self confidence is shattered – i.e. how to cope when someone else is winning or to simplify it just that step further – blame the tools and not the worker. Blame the other worker perhaps

How much of this self serving guff can we tolerate before Kleenex or some other tissue company takes over as the major sponsor for motogp. Maybe someone who makes moisturiser, I see it now “New motouriser - because a few mediocre laps can really dry out your skin and chaff your man ....s".

Discovering your limits is about falling off, not getting cellulite or some crunchy little diet biscuit.

I have given it much thought and rider X couldn’t put his name to this rubbish because his hormone treatment prior to his ... change may have been revealed. He is giving up racing to become a cabaret dancer. Perhaps he should have been called rider XX to indicate his desired chromosomal pattern. Can’t change the genotype, with tablets and a bit of makeup we can work on phenotype – and an operation but it sounds like he’s already had that…

The question is, if you have your way and change everything rider XX and Casey still dominates, what will you do then.

The whole argument is based on this retrospective results scenario - a "back to the future" piece of prognostication that is simply wishful nostalgic rubbish and very unlikely.

I throw up a couple of what ifs.

What if Casey's success was due to being on a factory bike period and not just the incredibly easy to ride grossly unfair computerised Ducati.

What if Casey's success just represented the progression of his skills as a rider and he dominates no matter what format you choose (his results -vs- his team mates certainly suggest this is possible and probable)

What will you do then rider XX - sing and dance and get off motorcycles – how about get off now and save us this doleful excuse for mediocrity.

MOTOGP

It used to be about racing


Actually, I thought this coversation was finished ages ago?


Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Jul 20 2008, 11:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Actually, I thought this coversation was finished ages ago?


Pete

Is a conversation ever finished and if so how is such a thing arbitrated?

You need to talk to whoever runs this thing so posts can be closed.

I see two distinct philosophies in the sport – the faster philosophy which I think is great, and the slow down until my guy wins philosophy (which despite my b grade status when racing) will someday give me a chance in the postie bike cup which motogp will become.

I don’t really need a world title so I’d prefer the fastest guy gets it instead.

Pete, It’s Sunday, I worked a 66-hour week (BFD), I have a hangover and I hereby declare and express my apparent right to dredge whatever I like up and soapbox about it to assuage my sore head.

Maybe the mellifluous tones of rider XX singing "mood for love" will help that hangover.

Cabaret to calm the Cabernet

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andy Roo @ Jul 20 2008, 03:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Is a conversation ever finished and if so how is such a thing arbitrated?

You need to talk to whoever runs this thing so posts can be closed.

I see two distinct philosophies in the sport – the faster philosophy which I think is great, and the slow down until my guy wins philosophy (which despite my b grade status when racing) will someday give me a chance in the postie bike cup which motogp will become.

I don’t really need a world title so I’d prefer the fastest guy gets it instead.

Pete, It’s Sunday, I worked a 66-hour week (BFD), I have a hangover and I hereby declare and express my apparent right to dredge whatever I like up and soapbox about it to assuage my sore head.

Actually, I dont give a ...., coz I'm on holiday, and the .... I deal with in my job, means it doesnt matter a .... how many hours I work in a week, coz there will always be junkies havin kids, people dying and leaving family, kids getting physically and sexually abused, and kids getting bullied or ...... over by their parents.


If you open your eyes, I'm not slagging Stoner (oh god I made a joke at the expense of the forum idiots!!!!!!!!!!!) I was having a dig at fuckwits on here. If folk wanna stand by them, then they take what they get.

Oh yeah, illiteracy is another problem I face at work. If folk read the ...... posts it would be easier.

Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Jul 20 2008, 03:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Actually, I dont give a ...., coz I'm on holiday, and the .... I deal with in my job, means it doesnt matter a .... how many hours I work in a week, coz there will always be junkies havin kids, people dying and leaving family, kids getting physically and sexually abused, and kids getting bullied or ...... over by their parents.


If you open your eyes, I'm not slagging Stoner (oh god I made a joke at the expense of the forum idiots!!!!!!!!!!!) I was having a dig at fuckwits on here. If folk wanna stand by them, then they take what they get.

Oh yeah, illiteracy is another problem I face at work. If folk read the ...... posts it would be easier.

Pete



Ha Ha, back it up fuckers, I did!!!!!!


|Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Jul 20 2008, 12:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Actually, I dont give a ...., coz I'm on holiday, and the .... I deal with in my job, means it doesnt matter a .... how many hours I work in a week, coz there will always be junkies havin kids, people dying and leaving family, kids getting physically and sexually abused, and kids getting bullied or ...... over by their parents.


If you open your eyes, I'm not slagging Stoner (oh god I made a joke at the expense of the forum idiots!!!!!!!!!!!) I was having a dig at fuckwits on here. If folk wanna stand by them, then they take what they get.

Oh yeah, illiteracy is another problem I face at work. If folk read the ...... posts it would be easier.

Pete

Pete the BFD next to "I worked 66 hours” means - big ....... deal - I don't want a Daniel Boone hat for having a job - I take you work in a law enforcement or family services job and my hat goes off to you in that regard - it isn't philosophers that make the world safe.

For my part I see that a fairly simple and standard item available on production motorcycles gets the blame for a lot of stuff and I don’t see how anyone other than a fan of vintage racing thinks this back to the future stuff is viable when the worlds biggest motorcycle manufacturer isn’t going to make a 2 stroke after 2010 and super bikes are a poofteenth off the times of the old 990’s.

Vintage racing classes don’t attract sponsors but they are a lot of fun (I am going to race vintage/masters next year - 40th) but the desire to turn motogp into a vintage class doesn’t create constructive or productive debate and does nothing for the sport other than bang the nail of irrelevancy into the coffin of the class.

And I’m not actually supporting Stoner in my argument – I’m espousing the idea that the sport has to evolve. With ECU’s in super bikes AND production bikes (seriously you can buy a bike off the shelf with the same ECU as the GP8) we have to stay faster than those bikes or lose relevancy and sponsorship. Compare 500cc times to superbike times. Compare 990 times to superbike times. Motogp has to stay ahead or it will die and my assertion is that the ECU is not to blame but more likely the answer for the class.

Many of this forum are tactical thinkers – they can see what would make their rider win but they didn’t think strategically (that big picture everyone talks about) and give objective consideration about what will be good for the future of the sport.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andy Roo @ Jul 20 2008, 02:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>incredibly easy to ride grossly unfair computerised Ducati.

Without electronics, Honda would be the fastest again with Yamaha a close second... Stoner would be complaining.

Sure they can have that speed advantage but then they would lose out in overall laptimes to the more nimble sexier bikes like they used to.

Oh and about Stoner becoming good or Rossi not being as good as before... is utter .........

Stoner looks better because of electronics... and won his first title, Rossi looks worse as its not possible to pass 10 bikes like 3 or 4 years ago.

If you need to beat someone on a faster bike, theres not much the rider can do to make a difference on the race track now.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andy Roo @ Jul 20 2008, 02:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Pete, It’s Sunday, I worked a 66-hour week (BFD), I have a hangover and I hereby declare and express my apparent right to dredge whatever I like up and soapbox about it to assuage my sore head.
You obviously are a lawyer, and sensible enough to qualify "right" with apparent.

As far as I am aware there are no subscription fees, taxpayer or industry funding or anything that gives anybody any rights on here. My understanding is that ben, a hot-shot professional computer guy, started the forum for his own amusement so he could discuss motogp with fellow enthusiasts and runs it with the help of friends all on their own time.

I started posting because I was pissed off about stoner not getting credit last year, but for me things have now turned around so much that excessive and downright rude triumphalism by stoner fans, many of them australian, on the internet particularly on another site you are familiar with is making me embarassed to have contributed to it and is seriously interfering with my pleasure in following casey's success.

I am aware that the one right I do have is to stop posting and following the internet forums.

This is just a personal and I realise sanctimonious view probably not of interest to anyone else, and prompted by your comment about rights rather than aimed at you. One of the good things about this forum has been that ben seems to be a free speech guy to the extent I often don't realise who the moderators if any are.

Hardly waves the banner for prototype racing when we slow the fastest guy down and we get whooped by a superbike. If I was Repsol or Alice Moster or whoever I would sponsor the much cheaper superbike.

It isn't about Stoner.

The face is not intact when the nose is missing

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Jul 20 2008, 02:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You obviously are a lawyer, and sensible enough to qualify "right" with apparent.

As far as I am aware there are no subscription fees, taxpayer or industry funding or anything that gives anybody any rights on here. My understanding is that ben, a hot-shot professional computer guy, started the forum for his own amusement so he could discuss motogp with fellow enthusiasts and runs it with the help of friends all on their own time.

I started posting because I was pissed off about stoner not getting credit last year, but for me things have now turned around so much that excessive and downright rude triumphalism by stoner fans, many of them australian, on the internet particularly on another site you are familiar with is making me embarassed to have contributed to it and is seriously interfering with my pleasure in following casey's success.

I am aware that the one right I do have is to stop posting and following the internet forums.

This is just a personal and I realise sanctimonious view probably not of interest to anyone else, and prompted by your comment about rights rather than aimed at you. One of the good things about this forum has been that ben seems to be a free speech guy to the extent I often don't realise who the moderators if any are.

Lawyer yes but not a lawyer - I work somewhere else (I like to think for the good guys) but I do have the qualification. Most lawyers .... me to tears.

You are a doctor no doubt and I love your stuff - I did a human bio major with degree No.1 (Psych) and you along with Basspetes brethren have my admiration – I delineate good guys from bad guys and use that heuristic abundantly.

I like to stick up for Casey and the sport in general - I don't see why slowing it down will be good when SBK is snapping at the heels of motogp. SBK will take sponsors and prestige if once and once only it can hold a lap time above this sport. ECU's are here to stay and the guys negotiating sponsorship know that - trust me on that one.

As for rude Stoner triumphatism it embarrasses me, I love the class and from my enduro and motocross experience anyone having a red-hot go is worthy of the admiration of his peers. I got a new arsehole torn by Bikergirl for breaking that rule and making ad hominem remarks about Melandri, which I will not do again. If you read this Bikergirl – I love smart chicks (in the nicest way) and you smashed me good.

For what it’s worth James Toseland is probably my favourite non Australian rider and the hardship he faced growing up was incredible, he should get Knighted for what he is and where he came from.

I am preparing (have prepared - it's only 1 page) a good logic challenge for summer break to allow people to put the ECU thing into perspective - sometimes the angry mob gets it wrong but as Hitler said -the truth isn't what happens, it's what is believed (don't get mad for me quoting Hitler - it's just perspective)

For all of that I hardly engage in spruiking for Stoner – I spend most of my time defending him from the forces of illogical mass hysteria.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (an4rew @ Jul 20 2008, 12:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Without electronics, Honda would be the fastest again with Yamaha a close second... Stoner would be complaining.

Sure they can have that speed advantage but then they would lose out in overall laptimes to the more nimble sexier bikes like they used to.

Oh and about Stoner becoming good or Rossi not being as good as before... is utter .........

Stoner looks better because of electronics... and won his first title, Rossi looks worse as its not possible to pass 10 bikes like 3 or 4 years ago.

If you need to beat someone on a faster bike, theres not much the rider can do to make a difference on the race track now.

Another perfect example of saying it over and over again and it will become the truth Look into my eyes .Rossi is till the best,Rossi is still the best,Rossi is still the best,Rossi is still the best.Its the electronics,its the electronics,its the electronics,its the tires,its the tires,its the tires.Now go out and spread the word.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Jul 20 2008, 03:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Another perfect example of saying it over and over again and it will become the truth Look into my eyes .Rossi is till the best,Rossi is still the best,Rossi is still the best,Rossi is still the best.Its the electronics,its the electronics,its the electronics,its the tires,its the tires,its the tires.Now go out and spread the word.

(Mandrake gestures hypnotically)

(In monotone) "Yes Master".

Wow man, that chant really got into my head

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andy Roo @ Jul 20 2008, 05:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I like to stick up for Casey and the sport in general - I don't see why slowing it down will be good when SBK is snapping at the heels of motogp. SBK will take sponsors and prestige if once and once only it can hold a lap time above this sport. ECU's are here to stay and the guys negotiating sponsorship know that - trust me on that one.
I think I have said before that the manufacturers themselves don't seem to think the ducati electronics are an advantage; they have never called for a control ecu but definitely were asking for an rpm limit at one stage. The irony is that ducati were the only manufacturer who voted to keep the 990 formula .

I am willing to accept any argument I can't refute particularly on matters technical in which I have little expertise. A smart guy who is a fair-minded rossi fan (being fair minded and being a rossi fan are not inconsistent, valentino is fair to middling good ) and also I think an aeronautical engineer had what I thought was a reasonable perspective in a previous discussion on this topic. He actually didn't think you could or should remove all electronic aids(I hope I am not misquoting you yamaka) but that there should not be engine mapping for track position/corners and that rider involvement would be improved by not having fly-by-wire throttles; at least the first seemed sensible to me. I am very happy to listen to your argument.

I think you are absolutely correct about wsbk v motogp, they are basically commercial competitors and if they have more spectacular let alone faster bikes it is a problem for motogp. However it is also a problem for motogp if wsbk has closer and more spectacular racing, although for me as for you motogp/500gp etc has always held more interest.

Is it obvious that everyone here is a doctor or lawyer? Or are we just talking about a form of racing? Good to see the love being shown around - You're all beautiful people unless your name is Roger-m.

Yeah, eliminate track aware engine mapping.
I don't buy the throttle by wire arguments, but I'd have to use one to make a judgment. It doesn't seem like an advantage

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Son of Doohan @ Jul 20 2008, 01:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Is it obvious that everyone here is a doctor or lawyer? Or are we just talking about a form of racing? Good to see the love being shown around - You're all beautiful people unless your name is Roger-m.
I do have several dr feelgood records/cds. And a dr john anthology for that matter.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (clarkjw @ Jul 20 2008, 12:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yeah, eliminate track aware engine mapping.
I don't buy the throttle by wire arguments, but I'd have to use one to make a judgment. It doesn't seem like an advantage
I speak from ignorance, but I think his argument was that it is easier to fudge things with a fly-by-wire throttle.

i think the track aware ecu may be a bit much, but the sport definitely NEEDS to push the envelope. isn't that what motogp is all about? if not there, where?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andy Roo @ Jul 20 2008, 06:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Many of this forum are tactical thinkers – they can see what would make their rider win but they didn’t think strategically (that big picture everyone talks about) and give objective consideration about what will be good for the future of the sport.

And that goes both ways I supose.
My worries is not about making rules that enable Rossi to win, but I'll give you one: I would like to see the likes of Rossi winning rather than Stoner and Pedrosa. As I read in an article you could classify Stoner first of all as a "winner" while Rossi is a "racer". Stoners gratest victory were according to himself LC last year where he won by a mile. Rossi's I can't remember but it where one of those races with endless overtaking and Rossi winning by a fraction of a second.
Simonchelli is a very good prospect, Dovi might be as well. Both are well known for snapping victories from factory Aprilia riders with faster bikes. (as of last race Simonchelli is on factory equipment though)
What these guys can do on bikes is what make this the most facinating motorsport to me and that's why I want to keep it that way. Others, including lots of jounalists and racers seems to agree in this, expressesed through their worries regarding the lack of close racing.
I suspect you make the same misstake most Stoner fans do and assume the wish for close racing is infact a tactica Stoner/Ducati attack. It's not, I'm convinced Stoner is among the top 2 raceres and I will not try to put one above the other, allthough (as mentioned before I prefer Rossi's way of racing an day)
It's not about how HE races away but about how the leader, any leader, in (allmost) any race these days do it so effortlessly, and how second and third guy similary find their position and effortlessly ride through the race at the pace they are "given". We say that these guys ride on the "edge". Well the edge has become very rounded, it's easy to find the balance and stay there. But that edge were what separated the men from mice before the sharp one that is, no one could stay on that edge for long, you had to have a margine. How many laps and how often on the edge and how close to the edge you could run relativly safe was what decided a riders ability.
It's not about Stoner running away but about how stoner, rossi and pedrosa all find their places in a race and how a 2 second lead is now a relativly safe margine, while as late as Assen '06 that was something Hayden closed in a couple of turns and won the race.
I don't mind Stoner winning, but if he and the other winners continue to do it the way they've done it so far this season the sport will loose me as fan and I suspect it will loose many more. How is that for tacktic?
I think it's valid to look at car racing in this situation. Where the edge inherently is duller by the four wheels, driver aids has been hunted down since they started arriving and particulary the electronic aids. you don't see racing cars with ABS TC or stability control and while they used to be less efficient than a good driver they are now way better. If it was in focus for racing, stabilty control could no doubt help drivers going much faster through chicanes and bus stops but they are all banned now and only for the better. Maybe it's about time both FG and Dorna realize that the electronics eventually kill good racing, or at least there should be some regualtaion around it just as every other performance pice of the bike is regulated.

post Laguna Seca.

You are worried that MotoGP would die in the attempt to limit the rider aids as production bikes get faster, while I'm worried MotoGp will die in the attempt to stay ahead of SBK with advanced rider aids making it booooering as Mamola called it.

How is that for tacktics?