rider? machine? which one is more important for the championship?

Keshav · Nov 27, 2010

Tom said:
What are you talking about, i like Nicky Hayden and always have done since he was in the AMA. I'm just not under the illusion that he's the only thing right and pure in motogp

Not sure which Hayden supporters you're talking about. Me, Pov, Jumkie, Curve etc... all love the guy and with great

chagrin lament his failings and cheer him on regardless. That's what it means to be a fan. Unlike fans of another well-known

rider - we don't think he's the second coming. Admittedly Jum's a little gay for him - but you know how it is with Latinos, all wearing their hearts on their sleeves.

johnnyvvc · Nov 27, 2010

Keshav said:
You're kidding right? Other than the bizarrely talented Stoner, which person (other than those times

when he's been taken out by the ..... of the week) has been consistently the highest placing

rider on the bike that is universally considered most idiosyncratic and difficult to ride?

That, combined with the fact that he is a former world champion EARNED him his seat in MGP

and has generated huge respect for his abilities from both fans and riders.

Funny how so much of the denigration of Hayden and Schwantz seems to originate from

the folks from that little island that hasn't generated a world champion in three decades.

You cut me deep Kesh you cut me deep!

PS - Where's ya place, Brooklyn, Queens or are you a Manhattaner??

Keshav · Nov 27, 2010

johnnyvvc said:
You cut me deep Kesh you cut me deep!

PS - Where's ya place, Brooklyn, Queens or are you a Manhattaner??

I'm in downtown Manhattan on the Lower East Side where the creme-de-la-creme of miscreants are

known to gather.

Jumkie · Nov 27, 2010

Tom said:
I completely disagree, in 06 Nicky was the number 1 rider, HRC did their job and Nicky was champ.

wow, what can i respond to that? There was probably 'maybe' one race in Hayden's entire career where he was the #1 rider, thats was Valencia 06. Go back and watch that race, listen to what the commentators said. He had been testing .... for next years' 07, his clutch was .... most of year because of it, even when after Laguna he had a 51 point lead. Honda almost wrecked his title, even until Portugal did Honda not give a flying .... about Nicky.

Ive read u hold this opinion, and really its not even debateable. Nicky has never been a factory priority, and i believe its because of ........ scripted politics. Btw, Nicky got to GP because he earned it clear and away (i think u agree). However, Uv argued and failed in the past to say BSB is the top national roadracing series. Yet history has shown, even now with Spies, that it produces the best. Period. Nicky has remained because everbody who is sane knows he was royally ...... at Honda. U question this idea of clout? Ask urself this question, what rider from Spain or Italy would hav stood for this? Even Dovi got a fair shake.

I'll tell u what Nicky is guilty of, hes guilty of being a naive hard working honest kid! This just doesnt work in GP. Even after against all odds, his biggest asualt came from his own garage, he gave the manufacture what it desperately sought and didnt deserve, a world championship. Then they ...... him over more by making ignorant peeps like u compete on Pedros minibike. Nicky was then release after being humiliated for trying to contest on a bike that everybody knew was detrimental to him. Yet the dumb ....... put it on the line every event. He even scored a few podiums. Ducati signed him, and though his results in points wer .... his first year, Ducati wer high on him. Why? Perhaps because they saw (though at the time not yet fully understood) a rider with great talent and integrity (the brand drove their Italian compatriot to give up). After having signed Melandri, a very good rider, Nicky showed that thier bike was ..... But they couldnt fully admit that because Stoner, the ONLY real "alien" in GP, masked the bikes flaws. Nicky scored several results out of the top 3 this year, while Stoner won a few, but its been the test that has fully confirmed what us (unlike u) can see about the 'machine-centric nature' of the sport. (But still u manage to point fo 07-08 Nicky/Honda experience to make an ignorant conclusion). Now we see a factory literally scrambling to "help Rossi"! What is the message here???? What does this say about Nicky?

esco · Nov 27, 2010

johnnyvvc said:
Hayden has not been treated as good as a lot of other riders by a long way & he has earnt his way into this series as he did in the domestic championchips he was racing in many years ago at a young age.

I just hope he actually gets his dues at Ducati, i think he will.

He like Spies has gotten where he is on merit not by who he knows, his name or how much money he can muster, the same cannot be said for all the riders on the grid.

Well I'm trying to think of who's on the motogp grid you are talking about.. I agree about the Spies and Hayden comment but apart from Abraham who is jumping on to his dads pockets who else would you consider is on the grid because of who they know, his name or money and not because of their talent?

Jumkie · Nov 27, 2010

esco said:
Well I'm trying to think of who's on the motogp grid you are talking about.. I agree about the Spies and Hayden comment but apart from Abraham who is jumping on to his dads pockets who else would you consider is on the grid because of who they know, his name or money and not because of their talent?

There hav been plenty:

Hoffman, Guintoli, (Italian dude at Ducati, i forgot name), Kallio, DeAngelis, Takahashi, Telmachi, Espargaro are examples in recent memory. At the moment, i wouldnt say Cal Crutchlow may b ther prematurely. Abraham purchased his seat. And though at one time Edwards & Capirossi "earned their seat, i think theyve been keept because they r good experienced testers (something their respective factories need atm).

johnnyvvc · Nov 28, 2010

Ah excellent, was million around the area back in January last year, amazing place. Saw parts of Brooklyn, Queens, Harlem & hung out in central park for a few days before flying on.

Was ...... freezing -6 i think, landed the day after they pulled the plane out of the Hudson. The little police boat was still there marking the place where the engine had fell off!

Keshav · Nov 28, 2010

johnnyvvc said:
Ah excellent, was million around the area back in January last year, amazing place. Saw parts of Brooklyn, Queens, Harlem & hung out in central park for a few days before flying on.

Was ...... freezing -6 i think, landed the day after they pulled the plane out of the Hudson. The little police boat was still there marking the place where the engine had fell off!

Be sure to contact me if yer ever round these parts again.

K

Mr. Shupe · Nov 28, 2010

rossiofsky said:
So, Biaggi and Melandry left motogp for WSBK, only because there, they can achive and shine more on a less perfect bike?

When did Biaggi ride a .... bike in motogp?

A Suzuki ride would have been enough to keep Melandry in motogp for a few years more.

When a cat cant get to meat, he will say the meat was smeling ......, and i wasn't even trying.

Good point. As ex riders, Melandri and Biaggi's testimony has some value, but we should take their words with a grain of salt, particularly Biaggi's. What are such competitive personalities going to say about a league in which they did not achieve as much as they hoped they would?

Some people are just winners. This is true in all sports. Beyond that, some can repeat success while there are those who put together one winning effort, or several spaced-out victories. Nicky, as much as I like him, is no Rossi. Spies, on the other hand, he seems to have what it takes. Many said he benefited from being on a Yosh bike in the AMA, yet when he went to WSBK he set the series on fire! New team, new bike, new tracks, new competitors, new series, new pressures...none of it mattered.

Then he shined in his rookie year in GP, what's next?

Jumkie, remember the Atlanta Braves in the 90s? With Glavine, Smoltz, Maddux and other stars, they were supposed to be the team of the decade. They only won one World Series and were beaten twice by the Yankees (once in an upset).

What about David Coulthard? He was with Williams and then McLaren when they had championship-winning machines, but how many titles did he win?

Having it all is one thing, getting the job done is another. I know this isn't terribly technical or insightful, but I think it is something we should keep in mind when trying to figure out why some riders succeed while others don't.

Tom · Nov 28, 2010

Jumkie said:
wow, what can i respond to that? There was probably 'maybe' one race in Hayden's entire career where he was the #1 rider, thats was Valencia 06. Go back and watch that race, listen to what the commentators said. He had been testing .... for next years' 07, his clutch was .... most of year because of it, even when after Laguna he had a 51 point lead. Honda almost wrecked his title, even until Portugal did Honda not give a flying .... about Nicky.

Ive read u hold this opinion, and really its not even debateable. Nicky has never been a factory priority, and i believe its because of ........ scripted politics. Btw, Nicky got to GP because he earned it clear and away (i think u agree). However, Uv argued and failed in the past to say BSB is the top national roadracing series. Yet history has shown, even now with Spies, that it produces the best. Period. Nicky has remained because everbody who is sane knows he was royally ...... at Honda. U question this idea of clout? Ask urself this question, what rider from Spain or Italy would hav stood for this? Even Dovi got a fair shake.

I know you and i will never see eye to eye on this topic, but i still find it amusing that you consider your opinion to be 'not even debatable' when it makes so little sense in some very significant ways. You are convinced that HRC made a rookie their number 1 rider when their other rider has been in the team for 3 years previously and won Repsol Honda's first win since Rossi left. You are convinced that the bike HRC turned out to beat the superior Yamaha was a disadvantage and the fact that Dani had the standard bike like all of Honda's other riders confirms his number 1 status. Imagine for one second that HRC had left Nicky on the standard bike, while giving the bike with all their most recent developments and performance upgrades to Dani. Besides the foolishness of getting a rider still learning the class and gaining experience to carry out development work on a bike he doesnt understand don't you think it would also be obvious favroritism? It seems totally illogical that you'd think the opposite.

As for the BSB issue, i maintain that the BSB is the premier national superbike series. The depth of competition and the riders and teams that enter are proof of this. Yes i know that Ben Spies and Nicky Hayden both came from AMA, and that they have reached higher heights than any BSB graduate but if you have done any science before you'd be familiar with anomalies. These riders are not representative of the AMA series as a whole, Spies particularly. You may feel the accomplishments of the single best rider from a series is the sole indication of that series' quality, but i disagree. If Rossi were to move to world superbike for next season would that alone make it the premier racing series in the world. In my opinion, no it would not.

esco · Nov 28, 2010

Jumkie said:
There hav been plenty:

Hoffman, Guintoli, (Italian dude at Ducati, i forgot name), Kallio, DeAngelis, Takahashi, Telmachi, Espargaro are examples in recent memory. At the moment, i wouldnt say Cal Crutchlow may b ther prematurely. Abraham purchased his seat. And though at one time Edwards & Capirossi "earned their seat, i think theyve been keept because they r good experienced testers (something their respective factories need atm).

Ok i meant in the recent Motogp or moto1 grid.. Hoffman, Guintoli and the Italian dude were not fast enough so theyre not there anymore, but the rest of the guys you mentioned are and were pretty quick and i think deserved the seat if not for a year or 2 to see what they can do. What i mean is they have talent cause without it theres no amount amount of name recognition thats gonna get you in the field.

Mr. Shupe · Nov 28, 2010

povol said:
No, the sport is not WWF on wheels where the victor is predetermined, but things can be done to assure certain people stand a better chance than others, then its up to the competitor to get it done, and Rossi did just that. This next year will be very exciting because of the unknowns of who will emerge as not only the leader for the championship, but the leaders of teams. Rossi will be undoubtedly the leader of Ducati, but what happens if Nicky starts out the first half of the season outperforming Rossi, will he be allowed to continue, or will it be 06 all over again, where he is testing parts for his teammates 2012 bike. Who will Honda back, Stoner or Pedro as the number 1. It should be good

Povol makes a good point here.

Manufacturers in racing have a history of backing what they consider the best team or rider/driver in order to ensure victory. Sports car racing being a prime example. Porsche, while having a long history of offering competitive equipment to privateers, has had factory teams with the latest developments on the cars. The others were there to clean up in case the new go-fast bits proved unreliable or there was some other problem with the factory/privileged cars. This doesn't occur because the factory simply likes a certain team or because the favored competitor has manipulated anyone; it is a strategic move. The competitor that stands out and seems to be the most capable of winning gets the most help from the supplier.

If Nicky starts out getting better results than Rossi next year, I feel Ducati will still concentrate more on Rossi. This wouldn't be because poor old Nicky can't get a break. At best Nicky would give them a string of podium finishes. Rossi, on the other hand, is capable of beating anybody. With Stoner gone, The Doctor is the way Ducati must go if they want to win a championship again.

Jumkie · Nov 29, 2010

Mr. Shupe said:
Good point. As ex riders, Melandri and Biaggi's testimony has some value, but we should take their words with a grain of salt, particularly Biaggi's. What are such competitive personalities going to say about a league in which they did not achieve as much as they hoped they would?

Some people are just winners. This is true in all sports. Beyond that, some can repeat success while there are those who put together one winning effort, or several spaced-out victories. Nicky, as much as I like him, is no Rossi. Spies, on the other hand, he seems to have what it takes. Many said he benefited from being on a Yosh bike in the AMA, yet when he went to WSBK he set the series on fire! New team, new bike, new tracks, new competitors, new series, new pressures...none of it mattered.

Then he shined in his rookie year in GP, what's next?

Jumkie, remember the Atlanta Braves in the 90s? With Glavine, Smoltz, Maddux and other stars, they were supposed to be the team of the decade. They only won one World Series and were beaten twice by the Yankees (once in an upset).

What about David Coulthard? He was with Williams and then McLaren when they had championship-winning machines, but how many titles did he win?

Having it all is one thing, getting the job done is another. I know this isn't terribly technical or insightful, but I think it is something we should keep in mind when trying to figure out why some riders succeed while others don't.

Mr. Shupe, as you know I've valued your opinion for many years now. (Though you made a dent when you said Rossi was 10x the rider as Nicky, which has made me reconsider your "alien" status.

)

About Spies vs Hayden. Hayden came a very close runner up to Mladin then beat him the following year. The next year he went to GP where he became rookie of the year. Spies stuck around on by far the best package in AMA, and beat his only competition. The thing is, Mladin happen to be the best competition, and was on the same bike as himself, so not sure which feat was better, perhaps both equally good. But while Nicky went to Euro-centric machine-centric GP, Spies went on to Wsbk and crushed as you say. But now they are both in the same series. This year Spies gets a pass because he was a rookie. But if you are going to make any kind of judgement comparing the riders talents against eachother, I have one word for you: DUCATI.

About the Braves, yes, I know the story quite well actually, being a baseball fan, and a diehard during the 90s. Quite simply the greatest failure by the winningest team of the era. Me being a Dodger fan naturally means I hate the Yankees, so I was in the default position to root for the Braves (really more like root against the Yanks, but you know what I mean). However, I will say, that if GP was more like baseball, then the Braves would have won several titles, so I'm guessing you mean the post season is like the GP season. In which case the Yanks are the Rossi's of the world. Remember, I'm a Dodger fan. You know, the "wait till next year" team. So you can see why I'm high on Nicky.

I get what you are asserting in this post, but frankly, I don't know if I agree in the case that is MotoGP. Oh, and about Biaggi and Melandri, you make a good point, but then again, it is a bit of an indictment. And being as 'bias' as I am, I'm always looking for the odd and rare leak into what I think about the scripted nature of the sport.

Jumkie · Nov 29, 2010

Tom said:
I know you and i will never see eye to eye on this topic...

As for the BSB issue..

Ok, we agree to disagree. Fair enough.

Jumkie · Nov 29, 2010

esco said:
Ok i meant in the recent Motogp or moto1 grid.. Hoffman, Guintoli and the Italian dude were not fast enough so theyre not there anymore, but the rest of the guys you mentioned are and were pretty quick and i think deserved the seat if not for a year or 2 to see what they can do. What i mean is they have talent cause without it theres no amount amount of name recognition thats gonna get you in the field.

Buddy, the "slowest" guy in GP is fast. I think they still have a % of pole they must get under right? So I agree with your point.

(BTW, damn, I can't remember Italian dude, and I'm too lazy to google today. I should remember too, because I took a pic with him at Laguna and Indy. He's a real nice humble guy.)

Tom · Nov 29, 2010

Jumkie said:
Ok, we agree to disagree. Fair enough.

Yes i think we will always fundamentally disagree on these topics, we definitely think in different ways. It's actually remarkable we agree on so much when things like this highlight how differently we go about applying logic

povol · Nov 29, 2010

Jumkie said:
wow, what can i respond to that? There was probably 'maybe' one race in Hayden's entire career where he was the #1 rider, thats was Valencia 06. Go back and watch that race, listen to what the commentators said. He had been testing .... for next years' 07, his clutch was .... most of year because of it, even when after Laguna he had a 51 point lead. Honda almost wrecked his title, even until Portugal did Honda not give a flying .... about Nicky.

Ive read u hold this opinion, and really its not even debateable. Nicky has never been a factory priority, and i believe its because of ........ scripted politics. Btw, Nicky got to GP because he earned it clear and away (i think u agree). However, Uv argued and failed in the past to say BSB is the top national roadracing series. Yet history has shown, even now with Spies, that it produces the best. Period. Nicky has remained because everbody who is sane knows he was royally ...... at Honda. U question this idea of clout? Ask urself this question, what rider from Spain or Italy would hav stood for this? Even Dovi got a fair shake.

I'll tell u what Nicky is guilty of, hes guilty of being a naive hard working honest kid! This just doesnt work in GP. Even after against all odds, his biggest asualt came from his own garage, he gave the manufacture what it desperately sought and didnt deserve, a world championship. Then they ...... him over more by making ignorant peeps like u compete on Pedros minibike. Nicky was then release after being humiliated for trying to contest on a bike that everybody knew was detrimental to him. Yet the dumb ....... put it on the line every event. He even scored a few podiums. Ducati signed him, and though his results in points wer .... his first year, Ducati wer high on him. Why? Perhaps because they saw (though at the time not yet fully understood) a rider with great talent and integrity (the brand drove their Italian compatriot to give up). After having signed Melandri, a very good rider, Nicky showed that thier bike was ..... But they couldnt fully admit that because Stoner, the ONLY real "alien" in GP, masked the bikes flaws. Nicky scored several results out of the top 3 this year, while Stoner won a few, but its been the test that has fully confirmed what us (unlike u) can see about the 'machine-centric nature' of the sport. (But still u manage to point fo 07-08 Nicky/Honda experience to make an ignorant conclusion). Now we see a factory literally scrambling to "help Rossi"! What is the message here???? What does this say about Nicky?

Is it my imagination, but when the Honda riders were presented with what they would be racing in 07, didnt Nicky make a comment that he thought it was a practical joke, or that he was being punk'd. If that was his reaction, it doesnt seem that the bike was developed around him. Pedro was the focus of attention from the second he signed, thanks to Puig and Repsol.

Tom · Nov 29, 2010

povol said:
Is it my imagination, but when the Honda riders were presented with what they would be racing in 07, didnt Nicky make a comment that he thought it was a practical joke, or that he was being punk'd. If that was his reaction, it doesnt seem that the bike was developed around him. Pedro was the focus of attention from the second he signed, thanks to Puig and Repsol.

Yes i've heard that story too. But i've also heard that the bike wasn't that different in actual size to the 990, the fairings just made the visual impact far worse

Jumkie · Nov 29, 2010

Tom said:
Yes i've heard that story too. But i've also heard that the bike wasn't that different in actual size to the 990, the fairings just made the visual impact far worse

Ah yes, it was something like a mirage right? All imaginary...

11213

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Mr. Shupe · Nov 29, 2010

povol said:
Is it my imagination, but when the Honda riders were presented with what they would be racing in 07, didnt Nicky make a comment that he thought it was a practical joke, or that he was being punk'd. If that was his reaction, it doesnt seem that the bike was developed around him. Pedro was the focus of attention from the second he signed, thanks to Puig and Repsol.

I remember that. I also remember reading something saying his chest and shoulders ached after riding because of the lack of wind protection from the bike's small fairing.

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