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Revealed: Why Ducati's older bikes are suddenly so far back

#22

Joined Oct 2008
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In Cider
I decided to start a new thread on this, because I felt it warranted it.

Revealed: Why Ducati's older bikes are suddenly so far back

Fascinating article imo. In summary: Traditionally the customer bikes are 'late season' versions of the previous yr factory bikes. But, due to budget decisions, this season the customer bikes have been 'early season' iterations of the GP23.

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Lets not forget these are prototypes, the factory bikes are constantly changing, there are people that spot something different on the bikes every week. The customer teams get what ever package the factory can replicate for all of the customer bikes,
 
Why is Marquez slow? [pictures of aero parts]

I hope this is just confirmation bias. Aero is important. Therefore, aero is the cause and it’s what I write about as a journalist. If the aero bits and bobs are actually the determining factor, the sport is in dire straits.

Aerodynamics has always been a thing, but in the past it was about top speed or directional stability. Now it’s about downforce on the tire which makes grip and avoids locking. Ugh. I hope they’ve done their home work for 2027.
 
Why is Marquez slow? [pictures of aero parts]

I hope this is just confirmation bias. Aero is important. Therefore, aero is the cause and it’s what I write about as a journalist. If the aero bits and bobs are actually the determining factor, the sport is in dire straits.

Aerodynamics has always been a thing, but in the past it was about top speed or directional stability. Now it’s about downforce on the tire which makes grip and avoids locking. Ugh. I hope they’ve done their home work for 2027.
The sport really is in strife because everything is dependent on aero.

I thought this was common knowledge. They probably changed other things as well, and the early season GP23 was problematic for Martin and Pecco with multiple crashes for both.

The current GP24 riders can do no more then they are doing ie riding the bike provided as best they can. Gigi straight out said the GP24 was better than the GP23 earlier in the season prior to any signings for next season however.

Whether MM will be able to use a bike designed to overcome advantages he had from his riding talent/style as well as the guys who have developed the Ducati or be as consistent as he was at his peak at his age and with his history are different questions, but I don’t think there is much doubt that there are 4 riders on bikes which are at least potentially faster than a GP23 however well ridden.


Perhaps similar to 2007 imo, I doubt anyone including Rossi could have ridden the GP7 as Stoner did, but given Stoner could ride it there was no beating him on a Yamaha however well ridden. I did always wonder how John Hopkins might have gone on a Ducati. .People were Rossi was being beaten by the bike rather than the rider,, and your old hegemon argument may appliy both then and now of course.
 
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Has there been a comparison of Marquez GP23 race and lap times this season VS Bagnaia - Martin's 2023 results?
Yes, he is pissing all over them but Michelin also have a new tyre so it means nothing. Everyone on a ducati is going faster than last year.
 
The sport really is in strife because everything is dependent on aero.

I thought this was common knowledge. They probably changed other things as well, and the early season GP23 was problematic for Martin and Pecco with multiple crashes for both.

The current GP24 riders can do no more then they are doing ie riding the bike provided as best they can. Gigi straight out said the GP24 was better than the GP23 earlier in the season prior to any signings for next season however.

Whether MM will be able to use a bike designed to overcome advantages he had from his riding talent/style as well as the guys who have developed the Ducati or be as consistent as he was at his peak at his age and with his history are different questions, but I don’t think there is much doubt that there are 4 riders on bikes which are at least potentially faster than a GP23 however well ridden.


Perhaps similar to 2007 imo, I doubt anyone including Rossi could have ridden the GP7 as Stoner did, but given Stoner could ride it there was no beating him on a Yamaha however well ridden. I did always wonder how John Hopkins might have gone on a Ducati. .People were Rossi was being beaten by the bike rather than the rider,, and your old hegemon argument may appliy both then and now of course.
I don't agree with Rossi being beaten by the bike in 07 rather than by the rider. If only 1 rider can ride the bike, it is more than likely a .... bike. The Ducati had advantages in top speed but by all reports suffered everywhere else. There is a reason why Rossi really didn't want Stoner on a factory Yamaha in 06 and it wasn't just that he didn't want Yamaha to be looking for his replacement. If Rossi was as confident in beating his replacement, he would have welcomed the challenge to emphatically show Yamaha (and n the world) that there was no one ready to replace him yet and they had better keep looking.

Gigi potentially destabilising the factory team to keep Marquez probably highlights how big the difference is between the bikes. Martin who is putting in a serious challenge this season was essentially given the flick by Ducati in favour of Marquez because Gigi believed that Marquez would be more of a threat to them on the Aprilia or the KTM. What that means in the aero era, I don't know but riders are still making a difference when on the same or similar bikes. Ducati would have had an inkling of the Pramac situation before signing Marquez and had a known that VR46 was a likely replacement. They still signed Marquez over more preferable (to VR46) options.
I know that commercial reasons probably played a part in the choice of Marquez or perhaps made it more palatable to those in the anti-Marquez camp at Ducati but sponsors etc can be or would be told that Marquez was unlikely to fight for the championship, even if given a current bike, unless something catastrophic happened within their team such as injuries etc. Marquez winning #9 or #10 on your bike only becomes great marketing if he wins. If he doesn't win then you have paid a shitload of money for something that has caused ramifications within the team. While I don't think that Pecco and Marc are best of friends, both are cordial enough to be professional with each other and not go into a Rossi/Lorenzo style feud over the next two years.

We don't even know if Pecco believes the 2015 conspiracy and has a 'reason' to hate Marquez.

Rossi himself is so worried about Marquez winning #9 & 10 that we see interviews like this one.
Rossi has a better idea than most of the difference between the bikes. If it was the riders and not the bikes, Rossi would be saying that Pecco doesn't need help, Marquez is over the hill, Pecco will show he is Rossi's successor not Marquez, Pecco is better than Marquez ever was etc.

There is a reason why Pecco kicked every other Ducati riders ... all over the track. Maybe he was lucky that Ducati decided to get rid of Iannone and Petrucci in 2020 and promote both of the Pramac riders to the team. But he can only beat who is in front of him and machinery advantage or not, he has been able to see off every challenger to his #1 status in the factory team. So I don't know that Marquez will be able to beat him over the season but what I do know is that this will likely be Pecco's biggest test and dominance over Marquez, even a possibly post prime version, will assert his place among the greats. Ducati has been so dominant during his tenure but the only real rivals he has had are Fabio on a Yamaha that hasn't been at the level of the Duc and as far as teammates go or riders on the same bike, the best riders he has had to see of are Jack Miller, Jorge Martin who is unrpoven outside of Ducati and an injured Enea Bastiannini
 
I don't agree with Rossi being beaten by the bike in 07 rather than by the rider. If only 1 rider can ride the bike, it is more than likely a .... bike. The Ducati had advantages in top speed but by all reports suffered everywhere else. There is a reason why Rossi really didn't want Stoner on a factory Yamaha in 06 and it wasn't just that he didn't want Yamaha to be looking for his replacement. If Rossi was as confident in beating his replacement, he would have welcomed the challenge to emphatically show Yamaha (and n the world) that there was no one ready to replace him yet and they had better keep looking.

Gigi potentially destabilising the factory team to keep Marquez probably highlights how big the difference is between the bikes. Martin who is putting in a serious challenge this season was essentially given the flick by Ducati in favour of Marquez because Gigi believed that Marquez would be more of a threat to them on the Aprilia or the KTM. What that means in the aero era, I don't know but riders are still making a difference when on the same or similar bikes. Ducati would have had an inkling of the Pramac situation before signing Marquez and had a known that VR46 was a likely replacement. They still signed Marquez over more preferable (to VR46) options.
I know that commercial reasons probably played a part in the choice of Marquez or perhaps made it more palatable to those in the anti-Marquez camp at Ducati but sponsors etc can be or would be told that Marquez was unlikely to fight for the championship, even if given a current bike, unless something catastrophic happened within their team such as injuries etc. Marquez winning #9 or #10 on your bike only becomes great marketing if he wins. If he doesn't win then you have paid a shitload of money for something that has caused ramifications within the team. While I don't think that Pecco and Marc are best of friends, both are cordial enough to be professional with each other and not go into a Rossi/Lorenzo style feud over the next two years.

We don't even know if Pecco believes the 2015 conspiracy and has a 'reason' to hate Marquez.

Rossi himself is so worried about Marquez winning #9 & 10 that we see interviews like this one.
Rossi has a better idea than most of the difference between the bikes. If it was the riders and not the bikes, Rossi would be saying that Pecco doesn't need help, Marquez is over the hill, Pecco will show he is Rossi's successor not Marquez, Pecco is better than Marquez ever was etc.

There is a reason why Pecco kicked every other Ducati riders ... all over the track. Maybe he was lucky that Ducati decided to get rid of Iannone and Petrucci in 2020 and promote both of the Pramac riders to the team. But he can only beat who is in front of him and machinery advantage or not, he has been able to see off every challenger to his #1 status in the factory team. So I don't know that Marquez will be able to beat him over the season but what I do know is that this will likely be Pecco's biggest test and dominance over Marquez, even a possibly post prime version, will assert his place among the greats. Ducati has been so dominant during his tenure but the only real rivals he has had are Fabio on a Yamaha that hasn't been at the level of the Duc and as far as teammates go or riders on the same bike, the best riders he has had to see of are Jack Miller, Jorge Martin who is unrpoven outside of Ducati and an injured Enea Bastiannini
I am a Stoner tragic, and the 2007 title was very definitely down to Stoner imo as well as yours, the bike was close to impossible to ride rather than the bike that rode itself as would have been the meme if memes were a thing back then. Preziosi the designer of the bike said later of the 2007 title “that was Casey”.

As I actually said if you could somehow manage to ride the thing which Rossi wouldn’t have been able to do imo then the bike/rider combination was (again imo) too fast to be beaten by anyone on a 2007 Yamaha. Rossi thought he would be a winner on the Ducati in 2011 because Casey could win on the thing, but he and JB were astonished by Casey’s method when Valentino got on the thing and they saw Casey’s data. The bike was doubtless an even bigger pig in 2010 than in 2007, but I believe Casey’s method ie nearly crashing to get through each corner was still much the same in 2007.
 
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Why is Marquez slow? [pictures of aero parts]

I hope this is just confirmation bias. Aero is important. Therefore, aero is the cause and it’s what I write about as a journalist. If the aero bits and bobs are actually the determining factor, the sport is in dire straits.

Aerodynamics has always been a thing, but in the past it was about top speed or directional stability. Now it’s about downforce on the tire which makes grip and avoids locking. Ugh. I hope they’ve done their home work for 2027.
Me too, because F1 was killed years ago by Aero IMO.

Look at 2020, a driver called George Russel, driving a back of the grid Williams, was promoted to Lewis Hamiltons Mercedes when he had to miss a race due to ...... Nearly got pole, and nearly won the race (had it not been for a bungled pit stop). Then there are people who naively believe that Hamilton would win the (then) Williams...
 
I don't agree with Rossi being beaten by the bike in 07 rather than by the rider. If only 1 rider can ride the bike, it is more than likely a .... bike. The Ducati had advantages in top speed but by all reports suffered everywhere else. There is a reason why Rossi really didn't want Stoner on a factory Yamaha in 06 and it wasn't just that he didn't want Yamaha to be looking for his replacement. If Rossi was as confident in beating his replacement, he would have welcomed the challenge to emphatically show Yamaha (and n the world) that there was no one ready to replace him yet and they had better keep looking.

Gigi potentially destabilising the factory team to keep Marquez probably highlights how big the difference is between the bikes. Martin who is putting in a serious challenge this season was essentially given the flick by Ducati in favour of Marquez because Gigi believed that Marquez would be more of a threat to them on the Aprilia or the KTM. What that means in the aero era, I don't know but riders are still making a difference when on the same or similar bikes. Ducati would have had an inkling of the Pramac situation before signing Marquez and had a known that VR46 was a likely replacement. They still signed Marquez over more preferable (to VR46) options.
I know that commercial reasons probably played a part in the choice of Marquez or perhaps made it more palatable to those in the anti-Marquez camp at Ducati but sponsors etc can be or would be told that Marquez was unlikely to fight for the championship, even if given a current bike, unless something catastrophic happened within their team such as injuries etc. Marquez winning #9 or #10 on your bike only becomes great marketing if he wins. If he doesn't win then you have paid a shitload of money for something that has caused ramifications within the team. While I don't think that Pecco and Marc are best of friends, both are cordial enough to be professional with each other and not go into a Rossi/Lorenzo style feud over the next two years.

The 2007 season could be argued either way, imo. Ducati had desmodromic valves, while Honda and Yamaha were still using spring valves. The action at Qatar 2007 demonstrated, imo, that Ducati also had location-specific fuel management. The GP7 could pass Hondas and Yamahas before the stripe, but the gap would be clawed back during the lap. Later in the season, Ducati leaned more on Stoner and adopted more conservative fueling strategies.

On the other hand, Bridgestone scored 33 podiums to Michelin's 21 during 2007, with Stoner scoring 14 of those podiums and 10 of 12 Bridgestone race wins. He was the only guy making the tires work consistently, and the only person who could feel the front end, despite the rock hard front tire construction. The other argument in favor of Stoner is Marco Melandri. He rode a Bridgestone-shod Honda in 2007, but when he arrived at Ducati in 2008 he was completely lost. Hayden struggled in 2009. Vale wasn't great in 2011. Ducati won 24 races during the 800cc era. Stoner won 23 of them.

Flip a coin.
 
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