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Keshav said:
Because nobody but Marquez can ride the damned thing. You are being willfully being blind to the fact that Marquez could just as easily (if not more so) won those championships on the Ducati. It's not the Honda that's riding Marquez. It's the other way around.
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I am not being wilfully blind. The evidence is that Honda have supplied Marquez a bike, 6 times out of 7, he can win the title with. He just achieved the highest ever point score total for a season.
That proves to me they do listen to his input, they do respond and they do provide a fast bike.
He isn't the only person to ever win the title on a Honda. I seem to remember Spencer, Doohan, Rossi going ok too.
I haven't seen MM ride any other motoGP machine. Doesn't mean he couldn't win on it. I just don't have that evidence.
I do have evidence their engineers are capable of supplying a championship winning machine. Ample evidence in fact.
 
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HRC developed the bike for Marquez, they don't care that the other Honda riders can't ride it (same way they didn't give a damn about Hayden in '07 when they made the Pedro-cycle). There really isn't anything wrong with the Honda, it has compromises like all the other bikes, but it's the best bike on the grid for the one rider it is designed for.
 
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pfeeww, you guys have a way to make discussions boring !

Anything else apart marquez to discuss out of the testing ?
 
warthog1 said:
I am not being wilfully blind. The evidence is that Honda have supplied Marquez a bike, 6 times out of 7, he can win the title with. He just achieved the highest ever point score total for a season.
That proves to me they do listen to his input, they do respond and they do provide a fast bike.
He isn't the only person to ever win the title on a Honda. I seem to remember Spencer, Doohan, Rossi going ok too.
I haven't seen MM ride any other motoGP machine. Doesn't mean he couldn't win on it. I just don't have that evidence.
I do have evidence their engineers are capable of supplying a championship winning machine. Ample evidence in fact.
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You are clearly cherry picking what you hear and then responding to things I did not say or imply.

That his championships are evidentally a product fueled 98% by his talent is obvious to anyone who has watched him race. This forum and other forums and every form of social media interested in this sport is filled with photos, videos and comments about, his nearly supernatural abilities to save the front end on the ..... handling Hondas, that have left all the Honda riders in the last 7 seasons high and dry or in the hospital. You cannot discount this. Look at the way he consistently walked away from the 30 other riders on any given day in Moto 2, coming from the back of the pack and winning with 8 second cushion - on a nearly identical bike, and then tell me he's not the winning factor.

Clearly you know I never implied that nobody ever won on a Honda other than Marquez. Yet you absurdly try to dodge the implications of the undeniable fact that no other Honda rider over the course of Marquez's years in MotoGp have accomplished ..... Can you even remember (without Googling) the last time any other Honda rider was on the regularly on the podium?

If the bike is only rideable by one ultra-phenomenol rider, it's not a great bike. It's a broken concept machine with a very high paid band-aid of rider. Without Marquez the RCV213 is a joke.
 
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Keshav said:
You are clearly cherry picking what you hear and then responding to things I did not say or imply.

That his championships are evidentally a product fueled 98% by his talent is obvious to anyone who has watched him race. This forum and other forums and every form of social media interested in this sport is filled with photos, videos and comments about, his nearly supernatural abilities to save the front end on the ..... handling Hondas, that have left all the Honda riders in the last 7 seasons high and dry or in the hospital. You cannot discount this. Look at the way he consistently walked away from the 30 other riders on any given day in Moto 2, coming from the back of the pack and winning with 8 second cushion - on a nearly identical bike, and then tell me he's not the winning factor.

Clearly you know I never implied that nobody ever won on a Honda other than Marquez. Yet you absurdly try to dodge the implications of the undeniable fact that no other Honda rider over the course of Marquez's years in MotoGp have accomplished ..... Can you even remember (without Googling) the last time any other Honda rider was on the regularly on the podium?

If the bike is only rideable by one ultra-phenomenol rider, it's not a great bike. It's a broken concept machine with a very high paid band-aid of rider. Without Marquez the RCV213 is a joke.
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It is not either/or imo. The first liter bike was so dominant in Stoner’s hands in pre-season testing it was found necessary to handicap the bike. Dani won 7 races or so on it. The 2013 and particularly the 2014 bikes did not seem especially difficult either.

From 2015 on the bike has been rather more difficult. This may be at least partly related to them no longer being able to tame their engine with bespoke electronics, as I recall they threatened to withdraw from the sport at one stage if the control ECU was enforced, and seem to have been later to the party than Yamaha and particularly Ducati with that device.

At present I think he and the Honda engineers are well matched, they follow their natural inclinations and engineer the bike to be as fast as possible with encouragement from him, he rides it when no-one else can. There probably comes a tipping point where even he can’t ride the thing, and I am not sure he can go on forever falling off it 30 odd times a year as he reputedly did last season. As I have said I am fairly confident about the 9th and 10th, not so sure about the 15th.
 
michaelm said:
It is not either/or imo. The first liter bike was so dominant in Stoner’s hands in pre-season testing it was found necessary to handicap the bike. Dani won 7 races or so on it. The 2013 and particularly the 2014 bikes did not seem especially difficult either.

From 2015 on the bike has been rather more difficult. This may be at least partly related to them no longer being able to tame their engine with bespoke electronics, as I recall they threatened to withdraw from the sport at one stage if the control ECU was enforced, and seem to have been later to the party than Yamaha and particularly Ducati with that device.

At present I think he and the Honda engineers are well matched, they follow their natural inclinations and engineer the bike to be as fast as possible with encouragement from him, he rides it when no-one else can. There probably comes a tipping point where even he can’t ride the thing, and I am not sure he can go on forever falling off it 30 odd times a year as he reputedly did last season. As I have said I am fairly confident about the 9th and 10th, not so sure about the 15th.
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Of course it's not. My point is - what with no current Honda rider being able to get close to the podium, that without Marquez at the helm, Ducati would be very much dominant these last five or six seasons.

Dani was a really talented rider, as pointed out many times here - very much underappreciated, who struggled with the Honda despite the fact that beginning 2007 the RCV was allegedly tailor made to suit him. And what races he won, cost him dearly in terms of how frequently the RCV lost the front end. Honda could have saved a lot of money by building him his own personal gas-sipping ambulance.

The fact that HRC had to handicap the bike - is further evidence of Honda engineers designing the bike in tech-bubble that creates "upgrades" that look impressive on a computer monitor, but don't translate to real world advantage for actual riders. The way Honda got caught with their pants down with the introduction of Magnetti Marelli electronics for all - is very telling.

As to Stoner winning on the 2011 Honda; hell, that was a given. If he could win the way he did on the Ducati, you knew he was going to ride around the Honda's issues; issues less glaring at the time because the Ducatis were largely unrideable. Rossi was out of the picture floundering on the Ducati. Stoner's only real competition that year were Lorenzo and Pedrosa. Spies looked promising but his bikes kept disintegrating. The rest of the field were pretty lackluster talent-wise.
 
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Keshav said:
You are clearly cherry picking what you hear and then responding to things I did not say or imply.

That his championships are evidentally a product fueled 98% by his talent is obvious to anyone who has watched him race. This forum and other forums and every form of social media interested in this sport is filled with photos, videos and comments about, his nearly supernatural abilities to save the front end on the ..... handling Hondas, that have left all the Honda riders in the last 7 seasons high and dry or in the hospital. You cannot discount this. Look at the way he consistently walked away from the 30 other riders on any given day in Moto 2, coming from the back of the pack and winning with 8 second cushion - on a nearly identical bike, and then tell me he's not the winning factor.

Clearly you know I never implied that nobody ever won on a Honda other than Marquez. Yet you absurdly try to dodge the implications of the undeniable fact that no other Honda rider over the course of Marquez's years in MotoGp have accomplished ..... Can you even remember (without Googling) the last time any other Honda rider was on the regularly on the podium?

If the bike is only rideable by one ultra-phenomenol rider, it's not a great bike. It's a broken concept machine with a very high paid band-aid of rider. Without Marquez the RCV213 is a joke.
Click to expand...

How many years have people been saying that Honda wins by outspending the other factories? As long as anyone can recall. They made a very fast bike that handles like crap, but they can afford to pay a crazy salary to lock in the best rider of the last two decades. Take him out of the equation and Dovi would now have multiple championships, and Honda would be sitting around with their thumb up their ....
 
Take Marquez out of the equation and HRC simply spends the $$$ to develop a bike that their other riders can ride. The RCV only handles like crap for everyone other than Marquez, but that's by design.

When you have a rider like Marquez who can push the front-end to the limit consistently, you can design a bike to take advantage of that ability. But the other riders who don't share the same talent to be that hard on the front, will not really reap the benefits of that design change. The other riders have strengths in other areas, but HRC doesn't care about them and they're willing to put all their eggs in one basket. It's typical HRC and it has won them championships.
 
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moto vudu said:
Take Marquez out of the equation and HRC simply spends the $$$ to develop a bike that their other riders can ride. The RCV only handles like crap for everyone other than Marquez, but that's by design.

When you have a rider like Marquez who can push the front-end to the limit consistently, you can design a bike to take advantage of that ability. But the other riders who don't share the same talent to be that hard on the front, will not really reap the benefits of that design change. The other riders have strengths in other areas, but HRC doesn't care about them and they're willing to put all their eggs in one basket. It's typical HRC and it has won them championships.
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Answer me this: If it's that simple for Honda to build a rider friendly bike, why the .... don't they do it?

Japanese business people are famous for their pragmatism. How then to explain the way if it's no big deal to make a rider friendly bike, are they are putting all their eggs in one basket?

Also - if it were so simple to build rider friendly bike, which would mean more Hondas on the podium, therefore more prestige and greater attraction for sponsorship money - why do they lack the will to do so?
 
Keshav said:
Answer me this: If it's that simple for Honda to build a rider friendly bike, why the .... don't they do it?

Japanese business people are famous for their pragmatism. How then to explain the way if it's no big deal to make a rider friendly bike, are they are putting all their eggs in one basket?

Also - if it were so simple to build rider friendly bike, which would mean more Hondas on the podium, therefore more prestige and greater attraction for sponsorship money - why do they lack the will to do so?
Click to expand...

Why would they make a rider friendly bike when they're winning championships by only focusing on the talents of Marquez?

Look at it like this, lets say Marquez and Lorenzo were teammates at Yamaha. Imagine Yamaha designed the M1 for Lorenzo's riding style, but the bike sucks under hard braking on corner entry. Marquez is suffering because he can't brake the bike the way he needs to, but Lorenzo is kicking ... in the championship. Yamaha could compromise and change the M1 to accommodate Marc's need for better braking stability, but lets say that change then hurts Lorenzo's corner entry. So instead of compromise they continue to develop the bike to maximize Lorenzo's talent for high corner speed, high lean-angle, smooth style and Lorenzo keeps winning championships.

Now obviously Yamaha doesn't make the bike for just 1 rider, but HRC has no problems doing that if they believe maximizing the talent of 1 rider is what will win them championships. The lack of other Honda riders on the podium doesn't seem to bother them one bit, they celebrate like there's no tomorrow every time Marc wins and that's all they care about.

If changing the RCV to make the bike more rider friendly for the other Honda riders means they have to change the design to a point that hurts Marc's ability to be super hard on the front, they are NOT going to do it.
 
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Keshav said:
Answer me this: If it's that simple for Honda to build a rider friendly bike, why the .... don't they do it?

Japanese business people are famous for their pragmatism. How then to explain the way if it's no big deal to make a rider friendly bike, are they are putting all their eggs in one basket?

Also - if it were so simple to build rider friendly bike, which would mean more Hondas on the podium, therefore more prestige and greater attraction for sponsorship money - why do they lack the will to do so?
Click to expand...

It would seem that it's really difficult to find that 'sweet spot' and only occasionally is it found. At the moment, on one side of the spectrum, you have the Yamaha and Suzuki that both seem nimble and rideable. However, they lack grunt which translates to a relative deficit in straight-line speed and acceleration. OTO side of the spectrum are the Honda and Ducati which have the grunt, but lack the ride-ability which makes it difficult for the riders. ATM, Honda has a rider that can ride around the handling issues of the bike, making him dominant. MM at the moment prefers the more difficult, though faster option. Honda as well do not wish to fundamentally change the bike's development in fear of losing raw pace.

I doubt very much that they disregard the riders. Afterall, what's the point of having a bike that no-one can ride. However, if they do have a rider winning them championships, why risk losing what they currently have going by fundamentally changing the bike?
 
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moto vudu said:
Why would they make a rider friendly bike when they're winning championships by only focusing on the talents of Marquez?

Look at it like this, lets say Marquez and Lorenzo were teammates at Yamaha. Imagine Yamaha designed the M1 for Lorenzo's riding style, but the bike sucks under hard braking on corner entry. Marquez is suffering because he can't brake the bike the way he needs to, but Lorenzo is kicking ... in the championship. Yamaha could compromise and change the M1 to accommodate Marc's need for better braking stability, but lets say that change then hurts Lorenzo's corner entry. So instead of compromise they continue to develop the bike to maximize Lorenzo's talent for high corner speed, high lean-angle, smooth style and Lorenzo keeps winning championships.
Now obviously Yamaha doesn't make the bike for just 1 rider, but HRC has no problems doing that if they believe maximizing the talent of 1 rider is what will win them championships. The lack of other Honda riders on the podium doesn't seem to bother them one bit, they celebrate like there's no tomorrow every time Marc wins and that's all they care about.

If changing the RCV to make the bike more rider friendly for the other Honda riders means they have to change the design to a point that hurts Marc's ability to be super hard on the front, they are NOT going to do it.
Click to expand...

Answering a question with a question is simply doggedly refusing to acknowledge the lack of logical, plausible answer.

Why make a bike that more than one rider can win on? I've already answered that question. More prestige and increased visibility leading to better sponsorship money.

Again the question you can't answer: Why NOT make a more rideable bike? If it's more rideable for lesser talents, it would defacto, make it more rideable for Marquez, who in turn would crash less and have a longer career adding to Honda's brand, instead of leaving him crippled with injuries like Pedrosa, leading to early retirement.
 
Keshav said:
Answering a question with a question is simply doggedly refusing to acknowledge the lack of logical, plausible answer.

Why make a bike that more than one rider can win on? I've already answered that question. More prestige and increased visibility leading to better sponsorship money.

Again the question you can't answer: Why NOT make a more rideable bike? If it's more rideable for lesser talents, it would defacto, make it more rideable for Marquez, who in turn would crash less and have a longer career adding to Honda's brand, instead of leaving him crippled with injuries like Pedrosa, leading to early retirement.
Click to expand...

It's not easy to make a bike more than one rider can win on when your #1 rider has such a radical riding style. By maximizing Marc's talent, that allows them to have a bike that's much stronger than the competition in certain areas. If they make a better all-around bike, it's likely Marc would win less because the RCV's limits would be closer (or less than) those of the M1 and Ducati. That could actually cause Marc to crash more often as he would be desperate to take even bigger risks.

You keep talking about prestige and brand visibility, that already have that. Even in WSBK for the past few years HRC hasn't give a damn about making any sort of serious effort. What about their precious image and prestige?? They don't care! It's the Marquez show for them until something changes and forces them to go a different direction.

Bottomline is HRC doesn't have any incentive to change what's currently working for them. Especially now that Marc just committed to stay with them.
 
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moto vudu said:
It's not easy to make a bike more than one rider can win on when your #1 rider has such a radical riding style. By maximizing Marc's talent, that allows them to have a bike that's much stronger than the competition in certain areas. If they make a better all-around bike, it's likely Marc would win less because the RCV's limits would be closer (or less than) those of the M1 and Ducati. That could actually cause Marc to crash more often as he would be desperate to take even bigger risks.

You keep talking about prestige and brand visibility, that already have that. Even in WSBK for the past few years HRC hasn't give a damn about making any sort of serious effort. What about their precious image and prestige?? They don't care! It's the Marquez show for them until something changes and forces them to go a different direction.

Bottomline is HRC doesn't have any incentive to change what's currently working for them. Especially now that Marc just committed to stay with them.
Click to expand...

Why you insist on thinking that a better handling bike would hobble Marquez is unfathomable.

Historically - the thing that most often sets the "aliens" apart from the pack, is their ability to compensate for the short-comings of the engineering people. That's why they were so anxious to hire Stoner and then have the first year rookie rule changed to get Marquez on a full factory bike ASAP.

In light of how many front end crashes Marquez has suffered with, to say nothing of the resulting injuries, it's absurd to posit that the bike is tailored to Marquez's specs. It should be obvious that he'd prefer a bike that doesn't constantly lose the front end, with back end shaking around like a wild bronco; especially when you compare the jiggling Honda to much more stable Ducati which - Makes Just As Much Power.

To make a laughable statement that Honda doesn't care about image and prestige is to admit - you know less than zero about Japanese business culture.

And then - you say there's no incentive to make a better bike that more riders can more successfully compete on. Really? Seriously? Better results as I said, mean more, higher paying sponsorship money - which translates to millions of dollars. Sounds like incentive to me.

And lastly, there's the constructor's championship, which is hugely important to manufacturers. Honda doesn't care about Marquez vs Quattararo. They care about beating Yamaha and upstart Ducati.
 
Keshav said:
You are clearly cherry picking what you hear and then responding to things I did not say or imply.

That his championships are evidentally a product fueled 98% by his talent is obvious to anyone who has watched him race. This forum and other forums and every form of social media interested in this sport is filled with photos, videos and comments about, his nearly supernatural abilities to save the front end on the ..... handling Hondas, that have left all the Honda riders in the last 7 seasons high and dry or in the hospital. You cannot discount this. Look at the way he consistently walked away from the 30 other riders on any given day in Moto 2, coming from the back of the pack and winning with 8 second cushion - on a nearly identical bike, and then tell me he's not the winning factor.

Clearly you know I never implied that nobody ever won on a Honda other than Marquez. Yet you absurdly try to dodge the implications of the undeniable fact that no other Honda rider over the course of Marquez's years in MotoGp have accomplished ..... Can you even remember (without Googling) the last time any other Honda rider was on the regularly on the podium?

If the bike is only rideable by one ultra-phenomenol rider, it's not a great bike. It's a broken concept machine with a very high paid band-aid of rider. Without Marquez the RCV213 is a joke.
Click to expand...

Yeah he is a great rider. Yeah others struggle to get the best out of the bike.
However as I stated in the post you just quoted he won the title for the 6th time, reduced his crash rate, and scored the record points haul on that machine designed by Honda engineers.
What part of those 3 points confirms that honda is "a broken concept machine with a very high paid band-aid of rider"
 
Keshav said:
Answer me this: If it's that simple for Honda to build a rider friendly bike, why the .... don't they do it?

Japanese business people are famous for their pragmatism. How then to explain the way if it's no big deal to make a rider friendly bike, are they are putting all their eggs in one basket?

Also - if it were so simple to build rider friendly bike, which would mean more Hondas on the podium, therefore more prestige and greater attraction for sponsorship money - why do they lack the will to do so?
Click to expand...

Because as Moto Vudu clearly explained in the post you quoted they are building the bike for Marquez and his abilities.
Given his record they seem to be doing quite well, not poorly as you suggest, based on press reports of a test at a track that MM hasn't won on since 2014.
 
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Keshav said:
Why you insist on thinking that a better handling bike would hobble Marquez is unfathomable.

Historically - the thing that most often sets the "aliens" apart from the pack, is their ability to compensate for the short-comings of the engineering people. That's why they were so anxious to hire Stoner and then have the first year rookie rule changed to get Marquez on a full factory bike ASAP.

In light of how many front end crashes Marquez has suffered with, to say nothing of the resulting injuries, it's absurd to posit that the bike is tailored to Marquez's specs. It should be obvious that he'd prefer a bike that doesn't constantly lose the front end, with back end shaking around like a wild bronco; especially when you compare the jiggling Honda to much more stable Ducati which - Makes Just As Much Power.

To make a laughable statement that Honda doesn't care about image and prestige is to admit - you know less than zero about Japanese business culture.

And then - you say there's no incentive to make a better bike that more riders can more successfully compete on. Really? Seriously? Better results as I said, mean more, higher paying sponsorship money - which translates to millions of dollars. Sounds like incentive to me.

And lastly, there's the constructor's championship, which is hugely important to manufacturers. Honda doesn't care about Marquez vs Quattararo. They care about beating Yamaha and upstart Ducati.
Click to expand...

Hugely important.
What more important than the riders title?
They did win it last year these incompetent engineers you realise?

They seem to do it fairly regularly it appears, missed out once since 2011

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Grand_Prix_motorcycle_racing_World_Constructors_champions
 
warthog1 said:
Yeah he is a great rider. Yeah others struggle to get the best out of the bike.
However as I stated in the post you just quoted he won the title for the 6th time, reduced his crash rate, and scored the record points haul on that machine designed by Honda engineers.
What part of those 3 points confirms that honda is "a broken concept machine with a very high paid band-aid of rider"
Click to expand...

Again - you're cherry picking, refusing to address simple questions that undermine everything you claim to believe. 6 Seasons in and the bike that you allege to be tailor made for MM and he was still crashing twice as much as his closest competitors.

Reduced his crash rate. LOL - That's like an inspector praising a team of firemen because after having the firehouse burn down six years in a row, there was still 8% of the firehouse still unburned. :p
 
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