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Holypuck · Mar 5, 2018

synn said:
I wouldn’t be too unhappy if Ducati and Suzuki did a one to one swap for J Lo and Iannone.

The Maniac would be back on a Ducati, which is incredibly exciting to watch and J Lo gets his pseudo M1. Everybody wins.

Believe me, the very last thing Ducati wants is to have Iannone back

Ciabatti in a recent interview with an Italian magazine stated that Iannone's behaviour in the box has always been pretentious, arrogant and in general annoying and that there's a much "healthier" atmosphere between Lorenzo and Dovi. Iannone is also known for asking a rather high salary before even starting the discussion of a contract.

Although I do agree that it would be incredibily exciting to watch and I do think that there are very few interesting options for Ducati if they don't keep Lorenzo. Maybe Miller would the smartest one but after all, he's still got everything to prove on the Duc. We'll see

Holypuck · Mar 5, 2018

Barbedwirebikerr said:
I also saw in a pitbox interview, Valentino says he is going to be competing the next two seasons. Waste of a factory seat i think.

I agree. Zarco deserved that seat. Rossi, if he wanted to, would be kept there (and highly paid) until he's 70 y/o mainly due to his huge influence on the Yamaha marketing, and I think that is unfair.

Zarco is quite upset about it as well, I reckon.

But let's see the positive side. It's gonna be even sweeter to see Zarco smoking Rossi this year

birdman · Mar 5, 2018

MigsAngel said:
Fix it for you...the other Ducati factory rider will be too busy complaining about the bike and trying to convince Suzuki and KTM he is worth millions to hire.....

If that other rider cant find a top flight ride for 2019....Ducati should tell him he has to do a 2011 Rossi deal to stay on the factory team for 2012

Sounds familiar. Fixed it for you.....Don’t worry. Carmelo is calm. Oops sorry wrong rider. It’s those damn electronics, that’s the problem. Where’s Max? Laughing his fat ... off. It’s not me it’s the bike.

birdman · Mar 5, 2018

Holypuck said:
Believe me, the very last thing Ducati wants is to have Iannone back

Ciabatti in a recent interview with an Italian magazine stated that Iannone's behaviour in the box has always been pretentious, arrogant and in general annoying and that there's a much "healthier" atmosphere between Lorenzo and Dovi. Iannone is also known for asking a rather high salary before even starting the discussion of a contract.

Although I do agree that it would be incredibily exciting to watch and I do think that there are very few interesting options for Ducati if they don't keep Lorenzo. Maybe Miller would the smartest one but after all, he's still got everything to prove on the Duc. We'll see

100% agree. I was going to say, the last thing Dovi needs is the customary 3 Iannone torpedos per season.

Let’s recast our minds. I followed Dovi in the 250cc days when he raced Lorenzo. I always thought the Honda was underpowered, but while I wanted Dovi to win, let’s not discredit Lorenzo. They say the Aprilia while fast was difficult to set up and ride. Look to the Pedrosa vs Stoner 250 battles. Pedro was damn good man. But he had Puig, which means Pedro’s Honda likely was worth plus $$$$$$ than Dovi’s. Dovi is damn good. I’m not the dedicated supporter you are but I always somehow identified with him. For some reason I got the impression he lacked self belief. Until now. Last thing he needs is Iannone. Lorenzo while annoying is good for the team. Unlike..........do Yamaha have problems all of a sudden?

synn · Mar 5, 2018

Holypuck said:
I agree. Zarco deserved that seat. Rossi, if he wanted to, would be kept there (and highly paid) until he's 70 y/o mainly due to his huge influence on the Yamaha marketing, and I think that is unfair.

Zarco is quite upset about it as well, I reckon.

But let's see the positive side. It's gonna be even sweeter to see Zarco smoking Rossi this year

Zarco would have been happier with a factory bike and Guy coulon. He comes across as a Crutchlow like guy (but more talented), not quite the right fit in a full factory outfit because he is not going to censor his words according to a PR consultant.

That said, I highly doubt Zarco will outscore either Movistar Yamaha rider at the end of the season. Even with serious developmental issues, they are still a factory team with an assembly line of parts a satellite team can only dream of. He didn’t beat them last year and he won’t this year (But I do see him outscore them in a few races, maybe even win one if everything falls into place).

However, Zarco doesn’t need to outscore them to prove the point. He needs to get within breathing distance to show tem “See how close I can get with 1/10th the budget you have”.

MigsAngel · Mar 5, 2018

synn said:
I wouldn’t be too unhappy if Ducati and Suzuki did a one to one swap for J Lo and Iannone.

Why get an old maniac when they've already got Miller ready to take JLo's spot on the factory team?

Rins looks good on the Suzuki...so why put the future success on JLo....might as well hire Zarco for less money and less stress...

Holypuck · Mar 5, 2018

MigsAngel said:
Fix it for you...the other Ducati factory rider will be too busy complaining about the bike and trying to convince Suzuki and KTM he is worth millions to hire.....

If that other rider cant find a top flight ride for 2019....Ducati should tell him he has to do a 2017 Melandri deal to stay on the factory team for 2019

A MotoGP Team has to look at A LOT of stuff beyond results. Of course results are the most important thing but they won't come if many other things are not into place. One of these things is a solid and precise bike development, that can only be done by the engineers if they have a rider that knows how to address them.

Lorenzo is known as an extremely precise rider when it comes to addressing the technicians in the bike development, and this is proven by his riding style. You can not ride that clean without a bike that is balanced at a close-to-perfection level.

Ducati, which has been known for over a decade as the wildest bike, that was to be tamed before it could be ridden, is now considered a very well balanced bike and Dovizioso (a clean rider as well) had his best season ever on it right after Lorenzo started developing the bike as well.

While Yamaha completely lost the plot since Jorge left.

IMHO Jorge is being way more useful to Ducati than it looks, as well as he was way more useful to Yamaha than Yamaha thought. Then of course he was hired by Ducati to deliver a championship or at least several race wins, so it looks like a "failure" if we look at the surface of it, but like I said at the beginning of this post: A MotoGP Team has to look at A LOT of stuff beyond results.

Macca · Mar 5, 2018

Holypuck said:
A MotoGP Team has to look at A LOT of stuff beyond results. Of course results are the most important thing but they won't come if many other things are not into place. One of these things is a solid and precise bike development, that can only be done by the engineers if they have a rider that knows how to address them.

Lorenzo is known as an extremely precise rider when it comes to addressing the technicians in the bike development, and this is proven by his riding style. You can not ride that clean without a bike that is balanced at a close-to-perfection level.

Ducati, which has been known for over a decade as the wildest bike, that was to be tamed before it could be ridden, is now considered a very well balanced bike and Dovizioso (a clean rider as well) had his best season ever on it right after Lorenzo started developing the bike as well.

While Yamaha completely lost the plot since Jorge left.

IMHO Jorge is being way more useful to Ducati than it looks, as well as he was way more useful to Yamaha than Yamaha thought. Then of course he was hired by Ducati to deliver a championship or at least several race wins, so it looks like a "failure" if we look at the surface of it, but like I said at the beginning of this post: A MotoGP Team has to look at A LOT of stuff beyond results.

I'm really not sure I agree with this assessment.

In simple terms a riders role in bike "development" is to give clear and concise feedback as to what the bike is doing / not doing and what it should be doing / not doing - Obviously this gets complicated by things such as bike setup (is the issue being caused by setup / can it be fixed by setup) and tyres (a massive part of the equation).

Once the engineers get this feedback, they then use that information to push the development forward (tweaking chassis, engine work, fairings, swingarms etc).

The new parts are they made available at the next test/race and the process repeats.

So the concept that a rider 'Develops' a bike is not really a thing.

Now everything I've ever read about Rossi's feedback is that he's basically a human datalogger - He can pretty much tell his crew every little thing that the bike is doing/not doing which is then backed up by the data.

From the start of last season he had two main themes to his feedback were that the bike didn't turn in like it should and the rear end lacked grip / drive

This season his feedback is that the front end is now fine but the rear end is still lacking drive grip (with the main suggestion being that the drive grip can be sorted by the electronics which we know Yamaha are behind on)

That seems like pretty concise feedback to me in contrast to Mav who has been changing his mind from day to day about what the issues are to occasionally not having a clue.

So to lay Yamaha's current woes at Rossi's door would seem to have little basis for me.

I'm in no way saying that Lorenzo doesn't give good, useful feedback - I've got no reason to think that he doesn't.

Macca

Holypuck · Mar 5, 2018

Macca said:
I'm really not sure I agree with this assessment.

In simple terms a riders role in bike "development" is to give clear and concise feedback as to what the bike is doing / not doing and what it should be doing / not doing - Obviously this gets complicated by things such as bike setup (is the issue being caused by setup / can it be fixed by setup) and tyres (a massive part of the equation).

Once the engineers get this feedback, they then use that information to push the development forward (tweaking chassis, engine work, fairings, swingarms etc).

The new parts are they made available at the next test/race and the process repeats.

So the concept that a rider 'Develops' a bike is not really a thing.

Now everything I've ever read about Rossi's feedback is that he's basically a human datalogger - He can pretty much tell his crew every little thing that the bike is doing/not doing which is then backed up by the data.

From the start of last season he had two main themes to his feedback were that the bike didn't turn in like it should and the rear end lacked grip / drive

This season his feedback is that the front end is now fine but the rear end is still lacking drive grip (with the main suggestion being that the drive grip can be sorted by the electronics which we know Yamaha are behind on)

That seems like pretty concise feedback to me in contrast to Mav who has been changing his mind from day to day about what the issues are to occasionally not having a clue.

So to lay Yamaha's current woes at Rossi's door would seem to have little basis for me.

I'm in no way saying that Lorenzo doesn't give good, useful feedback - I've got no reason to think that he doesn't.

Macca

I do not understand what you mean by "So the concept that a rider 'Develops' a bike is not really a thing."

Engineers are partially blind without a rider's feedback. Something that works very well on a project might be not working well at all on the track, for an infinite number of reasons. It is essential for an engineer to be addressed by a rider for this very season.

I'm not saying Rossi is a bad developer. Luckily, I am not an engineer and unluckily, I am not a rider either

so these are just my 2 cents, but if he was as good as many state he is (I am not referring to you) how come he struggled so much on the Ducati development? How come he was never able to fix the issues of the '17 Yamaha, that indeed seem to be still present on the '18 Yamaha?

Macca · Mar 5, 2018

Holypuck said:
I do not understand what you mean by "So the concept that a rider 'Develops' a bike is not really a thing."

Engineers are partially blind without a rider's feedback. Something that works very well on a project might be not working well at all on the track, for an infinite number of reasons. It is essential for an engineer to be addressed by a rider for this very season.

I'm not saying Rossi is a bad developer. Luckily, I am not an engineer and unluckily, I am not a rider either so these are just my 2 cents, but if he was as good as many state he is (I am not referring to you) how come he struggled so much on the Ducati development? How come he was never able to fix the issues of the '17 Yamaha, that indeed seem to be still present on the '18 Yamaha?

I'm also an engineer (well a software engineer

)

The Ducati thing has been done to death I think - In short, pre-Gigi, the engineers back at Bologna had little regard for what the techs on the front line reported back to them and did what they wanted.
When Gigi took over, one of the first things he did was make sure the Bologna engineers actually spent time at the race track to better understand things.
This won't have been the source of all of their issues (Rossi and Burgess might well have led them down the wrong path a few times), but it caused a sizable chunk of them.

"How come he was never able to fix the issues of the '17 Yamaha, that indeed seem to be still present on the '18 Yamaha?"

I think I've covered that in my initial post - They have apparently fixed the front end issue (major issue 1 of 2 from 2017), but they are still struggling with the rear end drive grip, and hence durability issue (major issue 2 of 2 from 2017)

Indications appear to suggest that this is down to electronics which Yamaha, quite frankly, dropped the ball on when spec ECU came in (Ducati already had strong ties with Magneti Marelli as they use their ECU's on street bikes and they took a load of engineers off them - Honda mopped up the engineers who were left).

Then there the compounding variable that is the tyres which, in fairness, seems to be causing issues for all teams to one degree or another.

So, as far as I can tell from the limited data we have from pre-season testing, the only thing left to fix are the 1's and 0's in the spec ECU and I don't think there is a whole lot any rider can do about that...

synn · Mar 5, 2018

Macca said:
I'm also an engineer (well a software engineer )

The Ducati thing has been done to death I think - In short, pre-Gigi, the engineers back at Bologna had little regard for what the techs on the front line reported back to them and did what they wanted.
When Gigi took over, one of the first things he did was make sure the Bologna engineers actually spent time at the race track to better understand things.
This won't have been the source of all of their issues (Rossi and Burgess might well have led them down the wrong path a few times), but it caused a sizable chunk of them.

"How come he was never able to fix the issues of the '17 Yamaha, that indeed seem to be still present on the '18 Yamaha?"

I think I've covered that in my initial post - They have apparently fixed the front end issue (major issue 1 of 2 from 2017), but they are still struggling with the rear end drive grip, and hence durability issue (major issue 2 of 2 from 2017)

Indications appear to suggest that this is down to electronics which Yamaha, quite frankly, dropped the ball on when spec ECU came in (Ducati already had strong ties with Magneti Marelli as they use their ECU's on street bikes and they took a load of engineers off them - Honda mopped up the engineers who were left).

Then there the compounding variable that is the tyres which, in fairness, seems to be causing issues for all teams to one degree or another.

So, as far as I can tell from the limited data we have from pre-season testing, the only thing left to fix are the 1's and 0's in the spec ECU and I don't think there is a whole lot any rider can do about that...

Thank you for that sensible post in this sea of revisionist history.

synn · Mar 5, 2018

Holypuck said:
A MotoGP Team has to look at A LOT of stuff beyond results. Of course results are the most important thing but they won't come if many other things are not into place. One of these things is a solid and precise bike development, that can only be done by the engineers if they have a rider that knows how to address them.

Lorenzo is known as an extremely precise rider when it comes to addressing the technicians in the bike development, and this is proven by his riding style. You can not ride that clean without a bike that is balanced at a close-to-perfection level.

Ducati, which has been known for over a decade as the wildest bike, that was to be tamed before it could be ridden, is now considered a very well balanced bike and Dovizioso (a clean rider as well) had his best season ever on it right after Lorenzo started developing the bike as well.

While Yamaha completely lost the plot since Jorge left.

IMHO Jorge is being way more useful to Ducati than it looks, as well as he was way more useful to Yamaha than Yamaha thought. Then of course he was hired by Ducati to deliver a championship or at least several race wins, so it looks like a "failure" if we look at the surface of it, but like I said at the beginning of this post: A MotoGP Team has to look at A LOT of stuff beyond results.

The Ducati started being a decent bike when Gigi came in, threw whatever they had till then into the dustbin and started over.

A rider leaving will not automatically throw development into disarray. Even if J Lo was as useful to Yamaha as you claim he was, his years worth of data is still there for them to use. It isn't going "Bad" after a rider left.

I get it that most people ehre would rather die than admit that Rossi knows his way around a motorcycle, but he has more miles than anyone else in the paddock, so he does know how to give feedback. Which he did to Yamaha, successfully, even before J Lo was in MotoGP.

Holypuck · Mar 5, 2018

synn said:
The Ducati started being a decent bike when Gigi came in, threw whatever they had till then into the dustbin and started over.

A rider leaving will not automatically throw development into disarray. Even if J Lo was as useful to Yamaha as you claim he was, his years worth of data is still there for them to use. It isn't going "Bad" after a rider left.

I get it that most people ehre would rather die than admit that Rossi knows his way around a motorcycle, but he has more miles than anyone else in the paddock, so he does know how to give feedback. Which he did to Yamaha, successfully, even before J Lo was in MotoGP.

If you read my words well, you will realize that I only said that in my opinion Jorge is more useful to Ducati than it looks, and he was more useful to Yamaha than Yamaha thought. And there really ain't much to read between the lines mate

#22 · Mar 5, 2018

Holypuck said:
Believe me, the very last thing Ducati wants is to have Iannone back

Ciabatti in a recent interview with an Italian magazine stated that Iannone's behaviour in the box has always been pretentious, arrogant and in general annoying and that there's a much "healthier" atmosphere between Lorenzo and Dovi. Iannone is also known for asking a rather high salary before even starting the discussion of a contract.

Although I do agree that it would be incredibily exciting to watch and I do think that there are very few interesting options for Ducati if they don't keep Lorenzo. Maybe Miller would the smartest one but after all, he's still got everything to prove on the Duc. We'll see

Even Iannone's manger, Carlo Pernat, has said he is fed up of him.

Holypuck said:
I agree. Zarco deserved that seat. Rossi, if he wanted to, would be kept there (and highly paid) until he's 70 y/o mainly due to his huge influence on the Yamaha marketing, and I think that is unfair.

Marketing is the main reason Rossi even got the Yamaha seat back after his Ducati stint

MigsAngel said:
Why get an old maniac when they've already got Miller ready to take JLo's spot on the factory team?

Rins looks good on the Suzuki...so why put the future success on JLo....might as well hire Zarco for less money and less stress...

A lot of assumptions made there. For starters, Lorenzo has more PREMIER class titles alone than every rider you mention' titles in total (including lower categories). I'm reserving judgement on Miller as a lot of riders have been quick on the Ducati in their first winter of testing then not done much in races. Scott Redding is a prime example and was noted to have said the Ducati is easy to go quick on initially, but finding the last bit is hard.

Funny how Lorenzo is being written off after 1 bad season and 2 bad tests (which were subsequent to the Sepang test where he was dominant)

MigsAngel · Mar 5, 2018

#22 said:
Funny how Lorenzo is being written off after 1 bad season and 2 bad tests (which were subsequent to the Sepang test where he was dominant)

JLo at Sepang did 1 lap at 1:58, and the lap before was at the 8+min and lap after was 1:59....he was most likely using a soft tyre....great for 1 lap maybe 2, but not for race...

One lap wonders on soft tyres look good for the timesheets and fanboys....not so good for the seasons outlook and his chances at the title...IMO

#22 · Mar 5, 2018

MigsAngel said:
JLo at Sepang did 1 lap at 1:58, and the lap before was at the 8+min and lap after was 1:59....he was most likely using a soft tyre....great for 1 lap maybe 2, but not for race...

One lap wonders on soft tyres look good for the timesheets and fanboys....not so good for the seasons outlook and his chances at the title...IMO

A soft tyre that every other rider had access too. Testing is not just about race pace, it;s also about qualifying too. So while his quick lap may have been short, his outright pace was genuine.

He may flop, we don't know yet. But when a rider who hasn't won a title in 9 years and only won 2 races since 2015 is still performing in the opinion of some, then it;s safe to say Lorenzo has plenty of life left in him yet.

Your logic is flawed when it is noted that Maverick Vinales had such good qualifying AND race pace last yr, that everyone expected him to have the title sewn up by the summer, and look how that turned out.

AntG · Mar 5, 2018

MigsAngel said:
JLo at Sepang did 1 lap at 1:58, and the lap before was at the 8+min and lap after was 1:59....he was most likely using a soft tyre....great for 1 lap maybe 2, but not for race...

One lap wonders on soft tyres look good for the timesheets and fanboys....not so good for the seasons outlook and his chances at the title...IMO

They don't hand out trophies for testing though.

Mick D · Mar 5, 2018

synn said:
Zarco would have been happier with a factory bike and Guy coulon. He comes across as a Crutchlow like guy (but more talented), not quite the right fit in a full factory outfit because he is not going to censor his words according to a PR consultant.

Zarco = Crashlow may be the worst analogy I have ever seen posted on any MGP forum or blog.

BarryMachine · Mar 5, 2018

Mick D said:
Zarco = Crashlow may be the worst analogy I have ever seen posted on any MGP forum or blog.

I think its a sign of whats to come this year .... Zarco is going to be this years rossi protagonist..... so we can expect all manners of total opposite to reality utterances about Zarco from the boppers.

Theo · Mar 5, 2018

BarryMachine said:
I think its a sign of whats to come this year .... Zarco is going to be this years rossi protagonist..... so we can expect all manners of total opposite to reality utterances about Zarco from the boppers.

Well I got my Zarco hat and T shirt, will have to see if I can get in a Rossi stand if I attend any races

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