Pedrosa's starts & acceleration

Jumkie · Sep 5, 2009

Here is a vid of the Indy start. LINK Look at minute 1:10 (MotoGP start). At every race for the last two seasons I've noticed Pedrosa has an incredible start. Look at this vid (or any start this season for that matter) and watch how he looks like he has some extra cc's compared to others. Look at the gap he pulls on the rest of the pack going into turn one and then out of turn four. Its like he's on a bike with a turbo boost. So here is my question. It seems the last three years we've heard people talk about Ducati's "speed advantage" but why has this incredible launch by Pedrosa never discussed? I suspect its because he's never been in real contention for the title, so he's given a pass. But anybody who knows anything about the sport knows that the race start is extremely important. Why does this guy get a pass?

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As I saw him go down the straight, he would pull several bike lengths on the rest. I was watching the race again and it looked like the other guys had missed a gear.

I pointed this out to Clarky at Indy. He replied, "rider bike minimum weights" are needed to make this legit. What do you guys think?

(BTW, as an added bonus, check out how Mika Kallio knocks two riders off the track. He literally runs into the back end of a Suzuki. Seems like he loves doing this. I wonder if the Suzuki rider apologized to Kallio?)

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Pinky · Sep 5, 2009

eltoro · Sep 6, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Sep 6 2009, 12:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Here is a vid of the Indy start. LINK Look at minute 1:10 (MotoGP start). At every race for the last two seasons I've noticed Pedrosa has an incredible start. Look at this vid (or any start this season for that matter) and watch how he looks like he has some extra cc's compared to others. Look at the gap he pulls on the rest of the pack going into turn one and then out of turn four. Its like he's on a bike with a turbo boost. So here is my question. It seems the last three years we've heard people talk about Ducati's "speed advantage" but why has this incredible launch by Pedrosa never discussed? I suspect its because he's never been in real contention for the title, so he's given a pass. But anybody who knows anything about the sport knows that the race start is extremely important. Why does this guy get a pass?

I think that is part of the reason why, if he were taking advantage of his fast starts and winning those race people would point it out more (especially on this forum). But he hasn't, crashes and his seemingly content style of letting people pass him without giving much of a fight pretty much negate the advantage of his fast starts.

Also, Ducati's speed advantage is mechanical, it can be engineered. Dani's size is not as malleable. Why is it Danis fault for being small? He can't help that. Seriously, why do people look at the target without looking at the source? If teams want to higher smaller riders, that's their decision. If the 800cc class favors smaller riders, well it's not exactly the riders who make those rules, are they? Honestly, I don't see what the point of your criticism is Jumkie.

Pigeon · Sep 6, 2009

mostly just down to his power/weight ratio.!!

how much lighter is he than rossi.?.

google says
pedrosa 52kg rossi 67kg as we'd say thats 15 bags of sugar.or over 33-lbs

^ thats around a tank full of fuel

Pinky · Sep 6, 2009

he just trying to start .... coz he still cut over when hayden was over at honda.... he needs to let it go already

michaelm · Sep 6, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eltoro @ Sep 6 2009, 07:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think that is part of the reason why, if he were taking advantage of his fast starts and winning those race people would point it out more (especially on this forum). But he hasn't, crashes and his seemingly content style of letting people pass him without giving much of a fight pretty much negate the advantage of his fast starts.

Also, Ducati's speed advantage is mechanical, it can be engineered. Dani's size is not as malleable. Why is it Danis fault for being small? He can't help that. Seriously, why do people look at the target without looking at the source? If teams want to higher smaller riders, that's their decision. If the 800cc class favors smaller riders, well it's not exactly the riders who make those rules, are they? Honestly, I don't see what the point of your criticism is Jumkie.
Of course dani cannot be blamed for being small, but the 800 formula virtually forces other riders to starve themselves, which may still be the genesis of stoner's ills, and which ben spies seems to be doing at the moment which lends weight to the theory that his advent in motogp may be before 2011.

Tom · Sep 6, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Sep 6 2009, 08:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Of course dani cannot be blamed for being small, but the 800 formula virtually forces other riders to starve themselves, which may still be the genesis of stoner's ills, and which ben spies seems to be doing at the moment which lends weight to the theory that his advent in motogp may be before 2011.

I'm not convinced about that at all. I doubt the riders (who are athletes remember) are starving themselves, so much as losing weight through a controlled diet and exercise. Secondly I don't think many of the guys out there envy Dani's physical stature, it doesn't take a genius to see bigger riders advantages riding the bike and surviving crashes un-injured. The optimum stature of a motogp rider might be a little on the petit side compared to what it used to be, but lets not forget that the 990's were getting pretty dangerous for the little guys to ride.

Jumkie · Sep 6, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eltoro @ Sep 6 2009, 12:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Why is it Danis fault for being small?
No.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Honestly, I don't see what the point of your criticism is Jumkie.

The 800s are "engineering" full size riders out of the sport. I think that "normal" size riders still can compete but they must do so by extraordinary means over some who are born small. To have a level playing field, do you think this may call for rider-machine weight minimums? Its a simple question, not sure why your so lost. Are you aware that this format is use in other forms of motorsport?

eltoro · Sep 6, 2009

So, shouldn't this be a debate about DORNA decision making rather than singling out a particular rider?

If equalizing the field is the issue of this thread, then interested parties (i.e. fans) should direct their complaints and lobbying efforts at DORNA.

Jumkie · Sep 6, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eltoro @ Sep 6 2009, 12:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So, shouldn't this be a debate about DORNA decision making rather than singling out a particular rider?

If equalizing the field is the issue of this thread, then interested parties (i.e. fans) should direct their complaints and lobbying efforts at DORNA.

Are you for real? Hahaha. Try extricating your ... from Dani for a moment and discuss the issue. I’m singling out Dani because this launch is most defined with him. Ok fine, I'll send a letter to Dorna once we have a body of opinions.

Tom · Sep 6, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Sep 6 2009, 08:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>To have a level playing field, do you think this may call for rider-machine weight minimums?

In bike racing they don't give the a 'level' playing field as such, just a different set of challenges. Should a smaller rider like Dani have his size disadvantage highlighted by having to muscle a heavier bike around? Should lighter riders be given the advantage of being able to manipulate the weight distribution of their bikes more than a heavier guy can? This issue already comes up in F1, it would be far more significan't in motogp. Whatever the rules are, there will always be an optimum physical size/shape/weight, thats the way any sport is at a high level

Jumkie · Sep 6, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Sep 6 2009, 12:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This issue already comes up in F1, it would be far more significan't in motogp. Whatever the rules are, there will always be an optimum physical size/shape/weight, thats the way any sport is at a high level
Hi Tom, I've missed you. Where have you been hiding?

Yes, this issue comes up in F1 (eltoro didn't get the memo apparently), so is this issue relevant to MotoGP?

Do you think this complicated and delicate balancing act can be address? Its been said that smaller riders may have some disadvantages, but are these negated by the advantages? Can this or should this be regulated? You may recall Tommy, but Ben Spies had some comment on this recently. He said that surely there were some disadvantages to Dani, but that they were overshadowed by the advantages. And for this he hesitated in joining MotoGP. Perhaps waiting for this to be addressed?

Tom · Sep 6, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Sep 6 2009, 09:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hi Tom, I've missed you. Where have you been hiding?

Yes, this issue comes up in F1 (eltoro didn't get the memo apparently), so is this issue relevant to MotoGP?

Do you think this complicated and delicate balancing act can be address? Its been said that smaller riders may have some disadvantages, but are these negated by the advantages? Can this or should this be regulated? You may recall Tommy, but Ben Spies had some comment on this recently. He said that surely there were some disadvantages to Dani, but that they were overshadowed by the advantages. And for this he hesitated in joining MotoGP. Perhaps waiting for this to be addressed?

well my take on it is yes it can be addressed. But it isn't really understood that well, even the 'experts' seem to have varying opinions on the magnitude and significance of the advantages and disadvantages of the bigger and smaller, lighter and heavier guys. They could tweak the rules but i think they would not acheive equality so much as just shift the inequalities elswhere and move the goalposts. I think it's important for the rulemakers to not change things too often, stability in the rules is good for the sport in my opinion.

Jumkie · Sep 6, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Sep 6 2009, 01:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>well my take on it is yes it can be addressed. But it isn't really understood that well, even the 'experts' seem to have varying opinions on the magnitude and significance of the advantages and disadvantages of the bigger and smaller, lighter and heavier guys. They could tweak the rules but i think they would not acheive equality so much as just shift the inequalities elswhere and move the goalposts. I think it's important for the rulemakers to not change things too often, stability in the rules is good for the sport in my opinion.

Fair enough. It is complicated.

There you see, it wasn't that hard. And I didn't get testy with you. Your hiatus worked. You might consider taking them more often as it seems it has improved our relationship.

Squarewheel · Sep 6, 2009

Back to the topic... Italian commentators are often discussing Pedrosa's incredible starts and they say he's got a different type of clutch which can make gear shifting more effective in that situation. They once said Dovizioso tried that type of clutch but he felt uncomfortable with it, he said it can be great for starts but not so good for the rest of the race to control.

Jumkie · Sep 6, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squarewheel @ Sep 6 2009, 02:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Back to the topic... Italian commentators are often discussing Pedrosa's incredible starts and they say he's got a different type of clutch which can make gear shifting more effective in that situation. They once said Dovizioso tried that type of clutch but he felt uncomfortable with it, he said it can be great for starts but not so good for the rest of the race to control.
Interesting. Had not heard this. Do you have a link to any commentary or something? I had not thought about a possible clutch reason for his awesome take offs. I just figured it was a great launch control electronics (besides being 98 pounds).

Squarewheel · Sep 6, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Sep 6 2009, 11:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Interesting. Had not heard this. Do you have a link to any commentary or something? I had not thought about a possible clutch reason for his awesome take offs. I just figured it was a great launch control electronics (besides being 98 pounds).

Here a little article in italian

Here's the main point:

"Interrogato in merito al fatto che non riesce a partire come il compagno di marca, Andrea ha risposto che non usa la stessa frizione. Che, sicuramente, garantisce partenze razzo, ma non offre la stessa efficacia in staccata. Ecco spiegato l'arcano. In effetti, chi ha mai "smanettato" su una frizione antisaltellamento, sa come la messa a punto, alla fine, è un compromesso fra l'efficacia nello stacco e quella nella gestione della decelerazione."

I'm too lazy to translate it all, it basically says that clutch is great for starts but makes late braking more difficult. It keeps on saying the clutch setup is a compromise between shaft decoupling and taking care of deceleration.

Arrabbiata1 · Sep 6, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Sep 6 2009, 10:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Interesting. Had not heard this. Do you have a link to any commentary or something? I had not thought about a possible clutch reason for his awesome take offs. I just figured it was a great launch control electronics (besides being 98 pounds).
In '06 rookie Pedrosa was given a special modified coil springed 'rifled' slipper clutch. this not only afforded a lighter operation, but also a servo gripper action under power. At first Hayden was made to use the Pedrosa clutch on the Evo bike. but it quickly became apparent after a few near ground loop practise starts at the first race that he hated the feel and reverted to the standard HRC diaphragm version.

chopperman · Sep 6, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Sep 6 2009, 08:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm not convinced about that at all. I doubt the riders (who are athletes remember) are starving themselves, so much as losing weight through a controlled diet and exercise. Secondly I don't think many of the guys out there envy Dani's physical stature, it doesn't take a genius to see bigger riders advantages riding the bike and surviving crashes un-injured. The optimum stature of a motogp rider might be a little on the petit side compared to what it used to be, but lets not forget that the 990's were getting pretty dangerous for the little guys to ride.
Everybody has an ideal weight and BMI. Now if these guys are dieting and exercising to get below there ideal it will be detrimental to there health. You need a % of fat to stay healthy regardless of being an athlete or not.

frizzle · Sep 6, 2009

Power to weight ratio my arse.
Elias & Kallio aren't flying off the line every race?
They have a weight advantage too. Not as big admittedly but it's there.
Besides he doesn't just get away a little bit quicker.
He has started eighth and had a 5 bike length lead at the first turn @ Qatar.
He has a wicked launch control system for sure. ( I thought it was banned?)
I wonder if his team mate has it.

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