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Noyes Why Rossi Was Slowest and Wins

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 29 2010, 04:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It's an FIM homologated rev-limit so it applies to WSBK and BSB and any other series that uses FIM homologation procedures. Whether or not they enforce it in WSBK is a debate worth having, hence my obsession with the nearly identical acceleration and top speed across all brands.

I guessed the FIM rev limited existed before I even read the BSB Evo rulebook. I was only 100rpm off. That's how freakin' easy it is if you do the math and you understand the progression of events that have occurred since 2003.

Didn't I say sliding scale since 2004 which would have been 13,200rpm? I found out that the FIM homologate the Suzuki and the Honda at 13,300rpm. That rpm level corresponds almost perfectly with the top speed data from the last couple of years. A week after I proposed this theory, Max Biaggi was on the record talking about how Aprilia had finally achieved the normal performance gains from 2009 to 2010.

Every time someone accuses the Aprilia of being a bit fast in a straight line Biaggi is like "No no please believe me the bike is fast in the corners. We are only the same as everyone else on the straight".
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WSBK even has explicit performance indexing in the rulebook for the Ducati, and yet people still insist that the Flamminis would never do anything to make all of the 1000s the same.

No, instead, I must be insane.
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I bet my theory is only scraping the surface of all of the things they do during homologation to keep the bike production relevant.
Show me, not what somebody told you.

A guy once told me that his R6 would run 200 mph. A cop told a judge,he clocked an RC51 at 205 mph. I even had a guy tell me he installed a power band in his bike and the damn thing would fly.

The Ducati has 200 more cc. Whats your point
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Apr 29 2010, 02:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Show me, not what somebody told you.

A guy once told me that his R6 would run 200 mph. A cop told a judge,he clocked an RC51 at 205 mph. I even had a guy tell me he installed a power band in his bike and the damn thing would fly.

The Ducati has 200 more cc. Whats your point

It wouldn't matter if Vito Ippolito came to your house and told you that WSBK is rev-limited. You still wouldn't believe it.

I'm not interested in providing a long list of links for references or divulging the names and positions of importance (or unimportance) of the people with whom I've had correspondence. It won't make any difference.

The info about the homologated rev limit is actually published in cyberspace anonymously per my request. You can go find it. Google is a powerful tool.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Apr 30 2010, 01:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>That goes without saying, but if Stoner had kept it on 2 wheels, it would have been a blow out. Stoner was beating him just about every where, not just on the straights.

the main problem with your theory is, well, it's ......... For the simple reason that stoner was forcing the pace well beyond his limits in order to break away and not have to dice with rossi as is his method. Which when dealing with rossi is the most effective way to beat him. But do you always have to beat him? 20 points is better than zero.....

The trick in racing is to learn the limits, and when the technology improves, learn them all over again. There is no better man on track at this than rossi, hence his record IMO
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Apr 29 2010, 04:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>the main problem with your theory is, well, it's ......... For the simple reason that stoner was forcing the pace well beyond his limits in order to break away and not have to dice with rossi as is his method. Which when dealing with rossi is the most effective way to beat him. But do you always have to beat him? 20 points is better than zero.....

The trick in racing is to learn the limits, and when the technology improves, learn them all over again. There is no better man on track at this than rossi, hence his record IMO

Talpa, have you read anything since the Qatar race?

He wasn't pushing. He was taking it easy which reduced the operating temperature of the front tire. He thought he was pushing too hard so he backed off and lost the front. The temperature data showed that the front tire wasn't at it's proper operating temperature despite quite a few race laps.

Normally, I'd say it's just mind games, but considering the rearward weight bias of the bikes, I think it's legit.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 29 2010, 07:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It wouldn't matter if Vito Ippolito came to your house and told you that WSBK is rev-limited. You still wouldn't believe it.

I'm not interested in providing a long list of links for references or divulging the names and positions of importance (or unimportance) of the people with whom I've had correspondence. It won't make any difference.

The info about the homologated rev limit is actually published in cyberspace anonymously per my request. You can go find it. Google is a powerful tool.
I didnt realize that an EVO mechanic had such security clearance that they had to remain anonymous to save the racing world. Have you ever seen a thread where someone says, this thread is worthless without pics. Well, this argument is worthless without proof. Just for ..... and giggles, i Googled FIM homologated rev limits, and you know what came up.Your thread on powerslide.net, and an article about BSB EVO. Until you can show any kind of proof that WSBK has a rev limit, or your double naught spy comes out of the closet, its a dead issue.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Apr 29 2010, 06:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I didnt realize that an EVO mechanic had such security clearance that they had to remain anonymous to save the racing world. Have you ever seen a thread where someone says, this thread is worthless without pics. Well, this argument is worthless without proof. Just for ..... and giggles, i Googled FIM homologated rev limits, and you know what came up.Your thread on powerslide.net, and an article about BSB EVO. Until you can show any kind of proof that WSBK has a rev limit, or your double naught spy comes out of the closet, its a dead issue.

I've already proved it. The BSB Evo rulebook references the FIM homologated rev limit. An FIM homologated rev limit is an FIM homologated rev limit regardless of the rulebook that references it. All BSB Evo motorcycles require FIM homologation.

The rev limit is in black and white. You have to prove that it isn't enforced in WSBK by using another rulebook. Good luck.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bonnielass @ Apr 29 2010, 06:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think Rossi wins more through consistancy, then a fast lap time, anyone can bang out a fast lap. I'd put my money on Capirossi if were talking 1 fast lap, he can be blistering! But over say 5 laps his times will be all over the place, where as Rossi, would be consistant lap after lap after lap.

But Rossi has taken the BMW adding more Poles and less combined times several times now! I think as recent as Last year, and back in his youth even more.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frosty58 @ Apr 29 2010, 08:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>rossi wins cause he knows how to get thru a turn better than anyone else as well as the best racecraft ever.

Exactly! This makes a fast lap and consistent fast laps put together!
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 30 2010, 10:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Talpa, have you read anything since the Qatar race?

He wasn't pushing. He was taking it easy which reduced the operating temperature of the front tire. He thought he was pushing too hard so he backed off and lost the front. The temperature data showed that the front tire wasn't at it's proper operating temperature despite quite a few race laps.

Normally, I'd say it's just mind games, but considering the rearward weight bias of the bikes, I think it's legit.
Well the split times on that lap certainly didn't reflect a slower pace at all, in fact the opposite so believe what you want but I certainly don't think cs backed off at all especially that early in the race with such a small gap. Do you really think he wasn't pushing? Whilst trying to pull a gap on the best riders in the world?????!!!!
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Apr 30 2010, 01:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well the split times on that lap certainly didn't reflect a slower pace at all, in fact the opposite so believe what you want but I certainly don't think cs backed off at all especially that early in the race with such a small gap. Do you really think he wasn't pushing? Whilst trying to pull a gap on the best riders in the world?????!!!!

Where did you get this "trying to pull a gap" from Talpa? He was going faster than the others but had been doing that most of the weekend. Wasn't he just going the same pace he had all weekend?
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 30 2010, 10:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Talpa, have you read anything since the Qatar race?

Come on Lex, seriously did you have to ask this question?
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 30 2010, 03:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I've already proved it. The BSB Evo rulebook references the FIM homologated rev limit. An FIM homologated rev limit is an FIM homologated rev limit regardless of the rulebook that references it. All BSB Evo motorcycles require FIM homologation.

The rev limit is in black and white. You have to prove that it isn't enforced in WSBK by using another rulebook. Good luck.
Nope - science 101.

The burden of proof is on the guy who makes the hypothesis, not those who disagree. Until a hypothesis has some level of reproducibility/proof behind it, it does not become a theory. Even then it is not fact.

You need to demonstrate that the BSB EVO rules - which are not the rules that the fastest BSB protagonists race by - have anything in common with WSBK. Especially as the black and white written WSBK rules mention nothing about rev limits.

Lexi - face it, Kropotokin's arrival here has lessened your stance as the alleged know it all. Back off until you have some real info.
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Apr 30 2010, 07:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Nope - science 101.

The burden of proof is on the guy who makes the hypothesis, not those who disagree. Until a hypothesis has some level of reproducibility/proof behind it, it does not become a theory. Even then it is not fact.

You need to demonstrate that the BSB EVO rules - which are not the rules that the fastest BSB protagonists race by - have anything in common with WSBK. Especially as the black and white written WSBK rules mention nothing about rev limits.

Lexi - face it, Kropotokin's arrival here has lessened your stance as the alleged know it all. Back off until you have some real info.
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I've presented the proof. The FIM homologate a rev limit. It's in black and white.

The only thing left to discuss is whether or not my specific theory about 100rpm incremental rev limits starting at 12,500rpm in 2003.

Let's face it, neither this board of educated race fans nor Kropotkin knew that the FIM homologated a rev limit. Even Kropotkin is not debating whether or not a rev limit is homologated. His contention was that rev limits are not enforced in WSBK. I think the top speed data proves otherwise.

The FIM are charged with the task of keeping SBK race bikes production relevant so I wouldn't be surprised if rev limiting is only scratching the surface in regards to the hidden regulations.

As I've said the burden of proof is on the rest of you to prove the rev limit is not enforced.

The only reason I was happy to have Krop run the idea past Noyes is b/c Noyes believes that the Flamminis bent the rules to give BMW an advantage by eliminating the 14,000rpm rev limit. They didn't. They removed the rev limit b/c it would have given BMW an advantage. I said that from the beginning before I read about the FIM homologated rev limit and before I knew the rev limit was 13,300rpm for the 2010 season.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 30 2010, 12:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I've presented the proof. The FIM homologate a rev limit. It's in black and white.

The only thing left to discuss is whether or not my specific theory about 100rpm incremental rev limits starting at 12,500rpm in 2003.

Let's face it, neither this board of educated race fans nor Kropotkin knew that the FIM homologated a rev limit. Even Kropotkin is not debating whether or not a rev limit is homologated. His contention was that rev limits are not enforced in WSBK. I think the top speed data proves otherwise.

The FIM are charged with the task of keeping SBK race bikes production relevant so I wouldn't be surprised if rev limiting is only scratching the surface in regards to the hidden regulations.

As I've said the burden of proof is on the rest of you to prove the rev limit is not enforced.

The only reason I was happy to have Krop run the idea past Noyes is b/c Noyes believes that the Flamminis bent the rules to give BMW an advantage by eliminating the 14,000rpm rev limit. They didn't. They removed the rev limit b/c it would have given BMW an advantage. I said that from the beginning before I read about the FIM homologated rev limit and before I knew the rev limit was 13,300rpm for the 2010 season.
Show me the FIM rev limit in WSBK. You dont KNOW anything of the sort. You are still theorizing.
You have still not offered any proof whatsoever that WSBK has a rev limit.When exactly did WSBK eliminate the 14000 rev limit you speak of.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Apr 30 2010, 09:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Show me the FIM rev limit in WSBK. You dont KNOW anything of the sort. You are still theorizing.
You have still not offered any proof whatsoever that WSBK has a rev limit.When exactly did WSBK eliminate the 14000 rev limit you speak of.

Like I said before, even Krop recognized that the BSB Evo rulebook was referencing the same FIM homologation procedures that govern WSBK competition. His contention was that the rev limit isn't enforced in competition. Much more sensible tack than listening to people pretend the FIM don't homologate a rev limit. He believes his position is reinforced by Noyes. I think Noyes has misinterpreted the real meaning of removing the 14,000rpm rev limit prior to BMW's participation.

So the arguments are: Noyes - the Flamminis eliminated the 14,000rpm rev limit and then say anything to the press b/c they didn't want people to know they were helping BMW cheat. Mylexicon - the rev limit was eliminated quietly b/c it would have given BMW an advantage and they didn't want to draw attention to rev limiting.

I have not read any info about the BMW and it's prodigious rev limit or top speed advantage (b/c it doesn't exist). However, I have provided information that the rev limit is well below 14,000rpm.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 30 2010, 01:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Like I said before, even Krop recognized that the BSB Evo rulebook was referencing the same FIM homologation procedures that govern WSBK competition. His contention was that the rev limit isn't enforced in competition. Much more sensible tack than listening to people pretend the FIM don't homologate a rev limit. He believes his position is reinforced by Noyes. I think Noyes has misinterpreted the real meaning of removing the 14,000rpm rev limit prior to BMW's participation.

So the arguments are: Noyes - the Flamminis eliminated the 14,000rpm rev limit and then say anything to the press b/c they didn't want people to know they were helping BMW cheat. Mylexicon - the rev limit was eliminated quietly b/c it would have given BMW an advantage and they didn't want to draw attention to rev limiting.

I have not read any info about the BMW and it's prodigious rev limit or top speed advantage (b/c it doesn't exist). However, I have provided information that the rev limit is well below 14,000rpm.
You have provided hearsay from a yet to be confirmed EVO mechanic. Now from what i understand,the EVO bikes are going to limited to around 13300, maybe your confusing the 2 series. I find it hard to believe that the performance of the bikes has gone up like they have with less rev's. I remember numerous articles in 2008 that refered to Haga's R1 and tapping off the team installed rev limiter at 14500
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Apr 30 2010, 01:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You have provided hearsay from a yet to be confirmed EVO mechanic. Now from what i understand,the EVO bikes are going to limited to around 13300, maybe your confusing the 2 series. I find it hard to believe that the performance of the bikes has gone up like they have with less rev's. I remember numerous articles in 2008 that refered to Haga's R1 and tapping off the team installed rev limiter at 14500

The EVO bikes are at 13,800rpm b/c it's FIM homologated rev limit +500rpm.

Yeah, 14,500rpm probably is the real redline for Haga's old bike. Steve Atlas dutifully reported all of the press information about the bikes and their redlines, and he still said in the follow up article that it was BS and that they probably bending the rules to keep the bikes close.

Ducati claim the 1198R F-spec can reach 12,500rpm.
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If that were true, the new engine would be a museum piece to be treasured by all mankind. I'm not sure I'd put any stock in those press releases.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TP70 @ Apr 30 2010, 07:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Come on Lex, seriously did you have to ask this question?

out of hibernation are we? Qatar hit pretty hard hey........I will certainly give you massive points for your new avatar!!!! Great stuff!!
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Been lurking but I said I would let Stoner do the talking on the track. So far he hasn't so nothing to say. Still confident for the season though. I think we will see Stoner walk away with more races than anyone. Hopefully it will be enough to take the championship.

Ummm the Avatar!!!!!
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TP70 @ May 1 2010, 03:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Been lurking but I said I would let Stoner do the talking on the track. So far he hasn't so nothing to say. Still confident for the season though. I think we will see Stoner walk away with more races than anyone. Hopefully it will be enough to take the championship.

Ummm the Avatar!!!!!

So TP, what’s your take on the subject at matter? “Why Rossi Was Slowest and Wins”?
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ May 1 2010, 11:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So TP, what’s your take on the subject at matter? “Why Rossi Was Slowest and Wins”?

First answer, Because he is a great rider on clearly the best package and knows how to win plus it has been proven over and over again that you don't need the fastest bike to win. No matter how long the straights are the twisties are always much longer. This is why in years past during the tyre war special tyre's always gave such an advantage. Of course as has always been and always will be the case with motorbike racing the rider makes the biggest difference and Rossi is a prodigious talent.

Second answer, Because Stoner fell off which left Rossi with no one to compete with as he and Stoner in my opinion are the class of the field (soon to be joined by Spies who will be the 3rd true Alien). If this hadn't happen this thread would not exist.

I believe you could stick Rossi and Stoner on the Suzuki and first race they would be at the front.